Post: #1

I wanted to share a story of mine from work, and see if anyone else has similar experiences of women treating business like they do dating. This has been happening more and more for me over the years, and is now hilarious because I knew how to deal with it via dating.

A girl emailed me to set an appointment to ask about help with her business. She was a marketing consultant, white, blond and under 30 (all red flags). She was doing this at the last minute (red flag) and referenced her situation as a complete mess (red flag).

About 30 seconds into the phone call she said she needed to 'get her shit together' and my picture of her was complete....young, white woman that curses to strangers in a made up job. I told her what her next steps were, that she was an hourly client instead of a fixed fee client and what I would need from her before I did any work on her files. She agrees enthusiastically , with something like 'oh yes, thats perfect, you're a life saver! Lets book a time next week!' I gave her the "I don't want your work" way high hourly rate.

Not 2 hours later I get an email saying that she is also meeting with some other people to get quotes the next day and would follow up after that. I laughed to myself and double booked her appointment with another client at the first opportunity knowing that she would obviously not keep the appointment.

She did not follow up and I sent her an email later letting her know that I didn't hear from her as promised and so I have booked someone else into her appointment. She replied with "ok, I haven't been near my email with travelling and the holidays so I wasn't able to respond" I sent nothing back but again chuckled to myself...near your email? I guarantee you have the latest iphone and it is grafted to your face.

In my younger years I probably would have flipped out on this woman, saying she has no professional credibility and wasted my time. However, because she met my expectations for how women like her act I just laughed it off.

I think women like this just apply their social life patterning to business life. Unfortunately the markets are very different from dating. In business they compete equally with men, older women and minority women. Also, in business your reputation matters, whereas in dating just having a vagina matters.

I think I posted this somewhere else that about 10 years ago we used to have younger people (mostly women) just not show up after accepting job offers etc and then we would black list them with other business owners.

Has anyone else seen this? Do you think the behavior is actually damaging to them or is it like dating where there is so much choice that there are no consequences for their arrogance?

Post: #2

If someone doesn't hold his promises (without any real reason), there is no future business for him. You can only burn so many bridges. Things like that seldom happen between bigger companies, there is too much money on the table to act unprofessional (for the person representing the company). Things like that happen more often between independent/freelance business partners. But they also should have a reputation to lose.
Apparently she hasn't and will never have.

Post: #3

What bothers me is that women like this, or people like this never seem to get their comeuppance. Someone will have pity on her, or some white knight will come into the picture and make it all go away. And she'll still find a way to complain instead of being grateful.

Post: #4

(12-27-2013 11:05 AM)wiscanada Wrote:  Has anyone else seen this? Do you think the behavior is actually damaging to them or is it like dating where there is so much choice that there are no consequences for their arrogance?

I have been dealing with this for over 10 years and I can say no one holds them accountable so don't expect it to get any better. Professionalism is all but gone these days. The only thing that I have come up with is look at it like an obstacle you have to get around or off your plate completely ASAP. If anything its made me more protective and less open to this demographic, focus on my own work more, and revaluate what I formerly believed was teamwork.

Post: #5

With regards to @void and @WIA I think it breeds mediocrity. I don't think they will succeed in business but the white knighting will keep things from becoming a complete disaster. As with dating prognosis they will likely age and marry and their practice will dwindle to barely a hobby but they will still have business cards that they will hand out to friends that say "marketing consultant" and spend their husband's money to go to business seminars.

@puckman. I agree, teamwork for the sake of 'teamwork' is dead and this is why my favorite clients tend to be men, or ugly women. A hot woman tends to be a liability as a team mate or a pain in the ass as a customer.

That isn't universal though, there are some bright spots. I got a sales call the other day from a young and good looking girl who was a) sincere b) pleasant c)smart enough to research my business to ask questions and make small talk. She also volunteers her time with disabled children and is really into church so is pretty much A-squad on all fronts.

Maybe thats the common thread thats missing, men, ugly women and hot god fearing women all have humility which translates to them knowing how to work with people.

Post: #6

yeah I know what you mean, it's not the best style, but then again, she didn't really flake on you. She just didn't answer. And you know how it is, no answer = no.

Also considering that you gave her a really high quote it's not really surprising that she didn't answer.

As I said, it's not the best style not to answer, but it's not like she stood you up or anything.

Post: #7

I had a guy flake on us multiple times until we decided to completely drop all communication with him.

He actually suggested a JV to us. We were very interested as it was a solid plan. However getting him to meetup with us was a pain in the ass.

Ultimately he backtracked and said that he'd rather hire us than do a JV(aka we get a lesser cut). He actually did this on the day we were supposed to meet to discuss the JV via facebook.

Completely unprofessional. We dropped him.

The only reason we stood his flakiness and emotional instability(constantly changing his mind, we had to treat him like he's a chick) is because of his excellent skillset and the fact that he's actually very good at what he does(he has a few successful businesses).

However, we realized we didn't really need him and decided to proceed on our own. There are a good number of people out there with his skillset so he's replaceable.

Post: #8

Yeah I'm guilty of doing this to a few people when the gigs were low/credit only.

It's a sign that who ever your working with has little to no interest in what they're doing. Easy to spot those people as I was once one of them. Girl is probably a square peg trying to go into a round hole.

Post: #9

I've seen this before too - and it is generally women.

Flaking increases inversely to pay. Interns, and unpaid labor is notoriously unreliable, but that comes with the territory. I also find, if I don't have something signed saying I get paid whether or not the project gets finished, it won't get finished.

That said, I fucking love working with professionals. They can smell each other when they meet. Like a breath of fresh air or biting into a real home cooked meal after weeks of travel. It's refreshing.

Post: #10

(12-27-2013 11:53 AM)void Wrote:  Things like that happen more often between independent/freelance business partners. But they also should have a reputation to lose.

I have been burned twice by this. Never again. Fixing it by simply starting off right away under a contractual agreement, for the work/payment expected. If anything this flaking has forced me to accept the need for having real boundaries to prevent losing money and time, especially if there is a positive public/celebrity persona involved, and no real depth of knowledge about their business dealings.

Post: #11

(12-27-2013 02:43 PM)Ice Wrote:  yeah I know what you mean, it's not the best style, but then again, she didn't really flake on you. She just didn't answer. And you know how it is, no answer = no.

Also considering that you gave her a really high quote it's not really surprising that she didn't answer.

As I said, it's not the best style not to answer, but it's not like she stood you up or anything.

I have to agree with Ice here.

She may have been acting unprofessionally with her language, etc, but she did not flake on you. It's not uncommon at all for consultants (I'm assuming you're some type of info provider?) to get people hitting them up and then changing their mind after they hear a price. Once you hit her with the high figure, she clearly changed her tune and started backpedaling and you knew there was no appointment because none was ever agreed on.

Could have been a polite brush-off. Could have gotten distracted by a new shiny object. Could have found a better price. Could have forgotten she needed your service after the emotion wore off. Could be she just couldn't afford your rates. You didn't close the deal and yeah maybe just because you didn't want to...

But it wasn't a flake.

A flake is when someone sets a concrete appointment and doesn't show.

I hope you're only being half serious when you say you would have flipped out on a customer in such a scenario in your younger years because this type of thing with male and female clients is, at least in my world, not all that uncommon. Flipping out on her - now, that would have been unprofessional.

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #12

I went to a networking event for people in my industry a couple of weeks back. My line of work doesn't have many women, but there are a lot of young attractive marketing and public relations chicks that come to these mixers. Anyway, I had five or six different conversations with both men and women at this event, and I'll usually ask everyone that I talk to for more than a couple of minutes to exchange business cards. A couple of the more attractive women that I spoke with didn't want to exchange cards with me and insisted that I give them my card and they would follow up with me, which they never did. Exactly the same behavior I would experience with a woman I talked to at a bar that had no interest.

Most of these women draw no distinction between the way they conduct themselves in their personal lives as opposed to their professional lives. As WIA mentioned above, these chicks will continue to get away with it because they don't give a shit. Most of them view work as something to do for 5-10 years after school looking to bang their way up the corporate ladder before they find some poor guy to marry and make miserable.

Post: #13

(12-27-2013 05:47 PM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

(12-27-2013 02:43 PM)Ice Wrote:  yeah I know what you mean, it's not the best style, but then again, she didn't really flake on you. She just didn't answer. And you know how it is, no answer = no.

Also considering that you gave her a really high quote it's not really surprising that she didn't answer.

As I said, it's not the best style not to answer, but it's not like she stood you up or anything.

I have to agree with Ice here.

She may have been acting unprofessionally with her language, etc, but she did not flake on you. It's not uncommon at all for consultants (I'm assuming you're some type of info provider?) to get people hitting them up and then changing their mind after they hear a price. Once you hit her with the high figure, she clearly changed her tune and started backpedaling and you knew there was no appointment because none was ever agreed on.

Could have been a polite brush-off. Could have gotten distracted by a new shiny object. Could have found a better price. Could have forgotten she needed your service after the emotion wore off. Could be she just couldn't afford your rates. You didn't close the deal and yeah maybe just because you didn't want to...

But it wasn't a flake.

A flake is when someone sets a concrete appointment and doesn't show.

I hope you're only being half serious when you say you would have flipped out on a customer in such a scenario in your younger years because this type of thing with male and female clients is, at least in my world, not all that uncommon. Flipping out on her - now, that would have been unprofessional.

appreciate the alternative perspectives.

I agree, flipping out would have been unprofessional. I had quite an over the top temper when I was 21. That was a long time ago.

The flake, I agree that it can be argued. I still think that if someone calls, gets a price and then agrees to set a time to go ahead and do that work thats a commitment. No she was not under contract but I am also not under contract with my barber but will still call the guy up to cancel..I won't pretend to have lost my phone.

I would have no problem if someone asked for a quote and then ignored a follow up when I didn't hear back. That happens regularly enough.

Post: #14

(12-27-2013 07:40 PM)Blackmagic Wrote:  Most of these women draw no distinction between the way they conduct themselves in their personal lives as opposed to their professional lives. As WIA mentioned above, these chicks will continue to get away with it because they don't give a shit. Most of them view work as something to do for 5-10 years after school looking to bang their way up the corporate ladder before they find some poor guy to marry and make miserable.

I don't think these women will get far professionally. As OP mentioned, in the business world, their competition is all kinds of people, like older and ugly women, men, etc.. all of who are usually professional.

In my experience, most of the young women I've dealt with on a professional basis have indeed been professional. It could just be the hiring policies of the companies I work with, or maybe the flakes just can't get that far in the real business world.

What's that old saying..? The key to success is showing up..?