Post: #1

If there was just one thing that I could persuade young men to STOP DOING it would be: stop getting down on your knee to propose to a woman.

Well, really, don't get married at all for the most part. But if you MUST consider getting married, then a sure sign of failure is that you feel the need to bend your knee to propose.

Proposing this way is not only wimpy but is completely artificial...only became common in past 50 years. It's a stupid, destructive concept that we need to stop right now. Like, you are begging the woman to allow you to give her all your money? Get a grip guys. She should be begging YOU.

Every single friend who proposed this way got screwed by his wife. Without exception. The guys who survived marriage intact, were the guys who didn't make a big fuss.

Here's how I proposed to my wife. We were driving down the street. At one point I pulled over and said "We should get married". She said "Yes of course...any time, any way you want." She made it clear that she understood that I was offering her something infinitely valuable and rare, and she'd work like hell to be worthy of it. Then we went to a dive bar and got hammered and fucked all weekend.

That made it clear to me that I had picked a reasonable woman. Every solid couple I know, happened the same way. No fuss. The man would never get down on one knee and present some fucking ring.

Post: #2

I agree. Look at the image below, which is basically the same pose. What does that body language say? Begging, pleading, SURRENDER. That's the complete opposite of what we know works.

Post: #3

I don't know, it's something you only do once, and she gives her life to you. I have no problem showing the occasion some respect. She's not my equal or my buddy, she's about to acquiesce to be submissive to me for the rest of her life. If I care enough to ask her I don't have a problem showing her how much it would mean to me. It's a one-time thing. Big deal.

It's not how you ask, it's who you ask. It isn't setting the table for being a submissive husband. It's a 15 second gig in exchange for a good woman's life.

Not saying do it or don't do it, but if it's the right one don't beat yourself up if you want to make it meaningful for her.

Post: #4

Whether you bend the knee when proposing doesn't sound like a very good predictor of future marital instability. It's a relatively trivial thing. Even guys who are alpha might do this, despite being totally dominant in every other aspect of the relationship.

I respectfully disagree with the original post.

Post: #5

^^^ I agree with Consul above. Some just do it reflexively out of tradition.

On a tangential note, I heard the President once refer to his wife as "the woman who allowed me to marry her". I cringed when I heard him say that. Before I swallowed the red pill nothing about that would've struck me as odd. Couldn't imagine Vladimir Putin saying something like that.

Post: #6

for the rest of her life? Do even the most romantic of women still see it as for life anymore? I think marriage is seen long-term relationships used to be seen in the past, and hookup arrangements are filling the gap the short-term relationships left.

Post: #7

^

Great point. Most western women arent going in to marriage with the idea of being with someone until death especially if they are not overly religious. More likely even the good ones are only looking to stay married until the kids move out and then become a single cougar like she sees on tv.

Post: #8

(12-24-2013 02:19 PM)azulsombra Wrote:  Great point. Most western women arent going in to marriage with the idea of being with someone until death especially if they are not overly religious. More likely even the good ones are only looking to stay married until the kids move out and then become a single cougar like she sees on tv.

I'd say that's giving them too much credit for having a future time orientation.

Post: #9

I wonder if we are going to see beta males in gay marriage and divorce rape etc.

Post: #10

after my girlfriend was pregnant, one night in bed, i just looked over at her and said, lets get married. she said of course!

i got her a nice ring, but nothing too crazy. quality over quantity ($3500).

then i told her, we're never getting married

and she said, of course!

so now we're just permanently engaged. her sister got engaged and married since our "engagement"

guess its been about 18-20 months now

not a single plan in the works

Post: #11

(12-21-2013 06:54 PM)Consul Wrote:  Whether you bend the knee when proposing doesn't sound like a very good predictor of future marital instability. It's a relatively trivial thing. Even guys who are alpha might do this, despite being totally dominant in every other aspect of the relationship.

I respectfully disagree with the original post.

Well, this is open for debate. I don't have any hard data. I've just noticed that in my circle of friends the guys who made a big fuss about proposing were the ones whose wives later acted the worst.

It's just my view that, begging a woman to get married, even in jest, starts the marriage on the wrong foot. I think it's dangerous to view a marriage proposal as "trivial". It's a symbolic event and the way you do it will be remembered by her forever even if you've forgotten it.

Wives are constantly testing to see what they can get away with. I spend huge amounts of effort keeping my wife from getting out of control, though in a loving way. This is an example of setting that standard.

Post: #12

(12-25-2013 08:02 AM)augen sehen Wrote:  

(12-24-2013 02:19 PM)azulsombra Wrote:  Great point. Most western women arent going in to marriage with the idea of being with someone until death especially if they are not overly religious. More likely even the good ones are only looking to stay married until the kids move out and then become a single cougar like she sees on tv.

I'd say that's giving them too much credit for having a future time orientation.

like this

My new favorite saying: women don't have thoughts, they have reflexes.

Post: #13

(12-25-2013 01:04 PM)reaper23 Wrote:  after my girlfriend was pregnant, one night in bed, i just looked over at her and said, lets get married. she said of course!

i got her a nice ring, but nothing too crazy. quality over quantity ($3500).

then i told her, we're never getting married

and she said, of course!

so now we're just permanently engaged. her sister got engaged and married since our "engagement"

guess its been about 18-20 months now

not a single plan in the works

cool way to sustain a main chick... their reflex loyalty to the symbol is strong, and it chases me away as a player.
I'm assuming you kept the kid, so she's got a lot of security there in the isa, but you aren't cutting her in for half of all future earnings i don't think...lawyers....?

Post: #14

(12-25-2013 01:04 PM)reaper23 Wrote:  after my girlfriend was pregnant, one night in bed, i just looked over at her and said, lets get married. she said of course!

i got her a nice ring, but nothing too crazy. quality over quantity ($3500).

then i told her, we're never getting married

and she said, of course!

so now we're just permanently engaged. her sister got engaged and married since our "engagement"

guess its been about 18-20 months now

not a single plan in the works

Most realistic women just view the rock as a enough. Most girls I knew just say they want to do what they gotta do to get that good man whom will give them that ring. Only the over the top narcissist women want the big wedding and shit. Most are just happy with a rock and commitment, that $3500 ring can save your ass from tens of thousands in pillage from the courts if you know how to play it.

I am one whom hates titles. I never even liked calling my old Gfs my girlfriends, or to say we were "official", "exclusive", etc. Its basically like.. "Look I'm here, if I didn't want anything to do with you I wouldn't be here"
It was blunt but it usually worked, anytime a broad tried to pressure me to make shit "official" I would cringe and soon after bounce.

Post: #15

(12-25-2013 01:04 PM)reaper23 Wrote:  after my girlfriend was pregnant, one night in bed, i just looked over at her and said, lets get married. she said of course!

i got her a nice ring, but nothing too crazy. quality over quantity ($3500).

then i told her, we're never getting married

and she said, of course!

so now we're just permanently engaged. her sister got engaged and married since our "engagement"

guess its been about 18-20 months now

not a single plan in the works

This is a good idea actually. I may do this in the future (maybe not the baby thing).

Post: #16

(12-25-2013 01:43 PM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

(12-25-2013 01:04 PM)reaper23 Wrote:  after my girlfriend was pregnant, one night in bed, i just looked over at her and said, lets get married. she said of course!

i got her a nice ring, but nothing too crazy. quality over quantity ($3500).

then i told her, we're never getting married

and she said, of course!

so now we're just permanently engaged. her sister got engaged and married since our "engagement"

guess its been about 18-20 months now

not a single plan in the works

cool way to sustain a main chick... their reflex loyalty to the symbol is strong, and it chases me away as a player.
I'm assuming you kept the kid, so she's got a lot of security there in the isa, but you aren't cutting her in for half of all future earnings i don't think...lawyers....?

kid brings child support obligations married or otherwise

common law marriage only occurs if both parties hold each other out as husband/wife and intend to be married

pretty sure i'm good

plus we keep totally separate bank accounts and then contribute to a joint account. nice system

Post: #17

(12-25-2013 02:08 PM)reaper23 Wrote:  common law marriage only occurs if both parties hold each other out as husband/wife and intend to be married

Just to be clear on this, there are only nine states in the U.S. where common law marriage can happen: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common-law_...ted_States

I see guys in the manosphere getting hysterical and saying "if you live with a girl for a few years it's a common law marriage and you're going to get raped." There's usually nothing to worry about.

Post: #18

I agree that getting on one knee is an indication that there is something wrong with the man.

Before we got married, I would always joke with my wife and tell her I was going to knock her up. She of course would hint that she wanted to get married first and I'd pretend not to get what she was hinting at. I pretended I thought she wanted a pendant. I even bought her a pendant once to fuck with her.

When I "proposed" I was joking with her that I was going to knock her up and she of course hinted that she wanted to get married. I asked if she wanted another pendant as I pulled the ring out and held it in front of her. I never asked her to marry me, I merely implied that I would marry her; I already knew she was mine.

It was in a classically romantic location but I never got on one knee. We were just walking side by side.

Post: #19

(12-25-2013 02:45 PM)Vitriol Wrote:  

(12-25-2013 02:08 PM)reaper23 Wrote:  common law marriage only occurs if both parties hold each other out as husband/wife and intend to be married

Just to be clear on this, there are only nine states in the U.S. where common law marriage can happen: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common-law_...ted_States

I see guys in the manosphere getting hysterical and saying "if you live with a girl for a few years it's a common law marriage and you're going to get raped." There's usually nothing to worry about.

yes and there is no time period involved. basically, in these states, if you want both want to be married and you tell everyone you are - you are in fact married then.

Post: #20

Hmmm...I think it can send a certain message to a woman by acting submissively when asking for her hand. I think if you ask her to marry you in a fashion that suggests that you love, care and value her minus the submission may send a different message. Marriage is a shaky proposition from jump, regardless of how you ask, but I'd rather let her know from the beginning that I'm not submitting to anything - I'm deciding that you're the person I want to enter into a partnership with. You can do that without it being devoid of the romance that women want, and at the same time not looking like a simp. I'd be more concerned about the chicks that demand that an engagement ring be a certain amount of carats. Or the ones that run to a jeweler with the ring you gave her to have it appraised. Those types are probably the ones you'd need to worry about.

I'm a major proponent of men laying out from the beginning who they are, and what's important to them without negotiation. One of my friends, who just celebrated his tenth anniversary, is that guy. He's strong, without being an abusive dick. When they were dating, he made it clear that certain things were important to him, and those things wouldn't change. He likes getting up early on Saturday to go to the gym. ALONE. That's his thing, and it isn't negotiable. He was heavy at one point (not sloppy fat, but carrying more weight than he wanted), but lost a ton of weight. He travels frequently for business, so he gets away. He also told her he didn't like wearing rings, so he wouldn't wear the wedding ring a whole lot. He even lost one, and had to have it replaced. She learned and accepted these things, and they have a strong relationship. She even goes to the gym alone for her own workouts. They take occasional separate vacations. When together, he's a great husband. They both make decent coin, and have a great brownstone, and a vacation home in the country. She posted on FB today that while they were driving to his parents' home for Christmas, he turned to her and laid out all the ways he'd improved as a husband and man, and told her how thankful she should be! He was kind of joking, but not really. But she knows it's true, and she accepts that as the man she married. They have a great life together, and she knows it. He chose well, and so did she.

Post: #21

No matter how great your wife is or how alpha you are it doesn't change the fact that marriage is a submission to a completely different lifestyle, a completely different spiritual outlook and a redefinition of your life and responsibilities. It's not easy. I know many people who have made it work by saying "I do" by themselves in the hot tub. For me, if it weren't for the public promise to God and the rest of the rigamarole, I probably wouldn't have made it.

An honest society places huge emphasis on the seriousness of marriage because it is serious, and should be entered seriously because it can be a real bitch and often demands tremendous sacrifice to last. These sacrifices wouldn't have survived a hot tub ceremony for me, but I know they can for others.

I agree that if you don't think you can propose without getting on bended knee something may be wrong. But if you choose to do so for whatever reason, no big deal. At the very least it might be a reminder to yourself that you're stepping into a situation in which there's going to be a lot of dog shit along with the ice cream.

Post: #22

I agree with this 10,000%.

An alpha friend of mine got married recently, except nobody knew about it until months later.

He just casually mentioned "his wife" in conversation and cracked me up.

No wedding, no Facebook update, no honeymoon, no fuss.

They just went to the local town hall and signed the papers.

And of course he didn't get down on one knee!

If you have to get married, keep this example in mind. This is the way to do it gentlemen.

P.S. She is Japanese. They still make good wives in this part of the world and he wanted kids.

Post: #23

^^^ To add to the above, my friend's wife doesn't even know his salary. Fucking classic stuff.

Post: #24

(12-21-2013 05:30 PM)BLarsen Wrote:  I agree. Look at the image below, which is basically the same pose. What does that body language say? Begging, pleading, SURRENDER. That's the complete opposite of what we know works.

Nice try, but....no.



The original image is of a man with his face on the ground, groveling and kissing another man's shoe while he makes a gesture of supreme authority. A far cry from the traditional proposal stance, which is a way of showing your willingness to be vulnerable to a woman (an expression of trust), who could not hurt you if she tried, in confident, self-assured body language. You're subduing your physical and social power for her, but that doesn't mean it's gone (the fact that it's still there is what makes the gesture powerful).

You aren't on your knee in worship. You're on your knee to show you're ready to sacrifice and communicate goodwill, honor, and trust. And you're not surrendering to her, per se; you're surrendering to the relationship, which is a big sacrifice for men. Lots of alphas follow the script out of tradition.

Personally, I'd rather have a wife that wanted tradition (doesn't have to mean expensive) than one that wanted to seal the deal by getting blasted (these types are definitely cool chicks but not exactly submissive wife material) - or especially the type that insists we call each other "partners."

You don't have to agree with that, of course, and there is certainly grounds to make a case that getting on your knee is over-submissive, but let's not pretend the two pictures above are in the least bit alike.

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #25

In the minority here, but I really don't care about what other men do regarding their proposals.