Post: #126

(12-08-2013 02:27 PM)Aliblahba Wrote:  I walked by the t.v. this morning and an ABC anchorman said Mandela was Mount Rushmore rolled into one. Its amazing just how politically correct our society has become, and useless the media is. I wish they'd hurry and bury him so something else will be all over the news.

you had better get yourself a bunker, the biographical movie Mandela is set to premiere, and will get lots of publicity between now and the Oscars awards.

Post: #127

(12-08-2013 10:11 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  ^ The ignorance you've vividly displayed is dauntingly tedious to pick apart.

Once again, you have provided a great list of ad hominem attacks and you have still failed to address the links I provided on homicides per capita, rape and GDP growth.

Quote:Mandela is no personality cult. Despite being an immensely beloved individual and politician in South Africa (and the world), he elected to serve one term. In fact, if there's anything he's famous for, it's his modesty and humility (astonishing this is lost on you). Foregoing the mansion in Johannesburg reserved for Presidents, he resided in a modest suburban home instead. If you knew anything about leaders that bear a true personality cult, you would know Mandela does not fit that label.

I would say the online response by a lot of people who are quite apolitical and who don't know anything about history or geography would be evidence. He may have eschewed the personality cult, but it still existed and exists. This is perhaps a problem more with others than him, I am willing to admit.

Quote:As for colonialism in the Asian countries you cited, none of them parallel South Africa's Apartheid system. That is not even debatable. What facts have you presented making a remotely clear case to the contrary? Singapore was occupied by Japan for three years in WWII and then became a British colony with significant autonomy bestowed upon them, until its independence in 1965.

Singapore was a British colony long before WW2.

Quote:There simply is no country in Asia where a foreign white population implanted itself for permanent settlement and then subsequently created an abominable racial categorization scheme rooted in racism and economic disenfranchisement against the native population. That is scholarly fact.

Not true. You need to look into the colonial history of Japanese rule over both Taiwan and Korea and the attempts to destroy the local languages and cultures and replace them with Japanese language and cultures.

Quote:South Korea still clamors Japan for apologies for its behavior during WWII.

Of course it does, which I also acknowledged. There is still a massive amount of pent up feeling in the region. The point is though that Korea (and others) has moved on in the sense that it has still developed its country despite its past. Yes, it was wrong by Japan, and yes, Japan still has not apologised satisfactorily, but Korea has not worn that like an albatross around its neck.

Quote:Post Washington/Jefferson? Well, many US citizens were still not considered citizens and were enslaved. Only rich, property-owning white men could vote, the list goes on and on. The United States was not even remotely as good as its promise on paper. It still took many great men to correct the country's existential problems (Lincoln, FDR, MLK, Kennedy, etc).

Again, you've missed my point and continue to construct straw men. At no point have I said that the past was perfect. Who were the first, second and third presidents of the US? Who have the first, second and third presidents of South Africa been?

Quote:Mandela certainly left behind a heralded Constitution and model framework to ensure a multiracial, democratic, and free market South Africa long after he's gone. Just as with the US, there will be bad leaders that follow, but good ones too. South Africa is moving on. It even hosted the World Cup in 2010. Hard to imagine another African country capable of pulling off something like that.

Again, see my points above regarding subsequent presidents. Has South Africa moved on? Once again, you have ignored my statistics on homicide per capita, rape and GDP growth.

Quote:I'm not even sure why you find it necessary to troll a thread about a topic you are badly misinformed about.

Disagreeing with someone is not trolling. As for being misinformed, once again, I point you to actual statistics which you have neither addressed nor provided responses to with your own statistics. These are not my own sources. These are statistics provided by reputable international organisations.

Quote:According to your profile, though you've visited many countries, none are in Sub-Saharan Africa, let alone South Africa. What could you possibly understand about South African society?

This is irrelevant. An actuary does not have to have ever been a pilot or an aircraft engineer to talk about airline statistics. You have provided yet another ad hominem attack with this statement.

Quote:Further, you don't have many posts to begin with (newbie) so you I'd advise you to take it easy and build up a rep by contributing value towards topics you actually know about.

Once again, this is another form of ad hominem attack. The number of posts is irrelevant to whether something is true or not. Once again, I have provided statistics from reputable sources and you have refused to address them, yet insist that I do not know what I am talking about.

Quote:I get the feeling you could be a formerly banned member under a new alias.

I don't know if you can check these things or not, but you will see that this is not true. It is an interesting way to try to shut down the conversation though.

I actually have nothing against you, despite us disagreeing. You might very well be right about many things, but you have barely actually addressed many of the points I have made. If you had addressed the statistics I provided and offered reasons for why they are incorrect, including alternate statistics, then that might be something. As it is, I think we are now talking past one another.

Post: #128

^ You have failed to make a cogent argument worthy of any serious response. You just sound like a whining b*tch because someone has succeeded where you haven't. The crime rate of South Africa and the legacy of Nelson Mandela is utterly unrelated. Mandela promoted peace and reconciliation as President, not violence (sorry you've lived under a rock your whole life). Still, does Barack Obama bear responsibility for the crime rate of Chicago? Aren't there unique cultural qualities and histories that suggest why crime occurs irrespective of a nation's leaders? Are US presidents really the reason why the US has a higher crime rate than Western European countries and Canada? Are you really that stupid?

The first three American presidents enslaved men while promoting values about how all men are free and equal. The first leaders in South Africa were those who first ran the country beginning in 1910. Why not bring up their records? Oh, they're unelected and vehemently racist fascists that no modern rational thinking person would accept as respectable (hmm, that history actually has something to do with crime in South Africa, which you would know if you were literate).

In a democracy, people (not all in the case of the US for MOST of its history) elect the leaders they want to see in power and, thanks in part to Mandela, SA has been an (inclusive) democracy since Apartheid ended in 1994. South Africa's leaders since Apartheid are the reflection of the will of the South African people. Every developed nation from North America, Europe, Asia and elsewhere supported sanctions against the Apartheid government in South Africa. Similarly, virtually all of these nations honor Nelson Mandela's legacy.

There are many people in South Africa - across all categories - that agree and disagree with many aspects of the status quo. Thanks to Mandela, there is a democracy which allows for a robust culture of politics. This is something your armchair nation building has failed to produce.

Also, many countries around the world invest in the South African economy, quite heavily, not least of which are the Chinese. South Africa is a G-20 economy, the only one of its kind in Sub-Saharan Africa.

You bring up examples that have absolutely no relevance to the topic of discussion. Just because you make a statement does not mean I am obligated to address it. Maybe if you actually studied topics that you don't know about and raise ideas that remotely make sense, I might be compelled to have a respectable dialogue. There is no academic research - or any support really - endorsing your inane assertion that Asia experienced anything remotely similar to South African Apartheid. Stupid arguments get ridiculed. Get used to it.

I don't have to address baseless ideas that have no efficacy in the real world. You're bringing up self-created grievances that, frankly, no sensible person has about Mandela. The public respect bestowed upon him transcends race, nationality, religion, class, and ideology, both in South Africa and around the world. Deal with it.

Post: #129

An article in today's paper, by a former British diplomat discussing Britain's attitude towards apartheid. And the British fears about the potential for a communist takeover in South Africa.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/charle...r-britain/

Post: #130

Surprising that Newt Gingrich is the voice of reason against the nutjobs trying to discredit Mandela.

https://www.gingrichproductions.com/2013...ervatives/

Post: #131

Nice article.

Post: #132

Kanye West "I'm going to be the next Nelson Mandela"

Post: #133

(12-10-2013 01:54 PM)J.J. Wrote:  Surprising that Newt Gingrich is the voice of reason against the nutjobs trying to discredit Mandela.

https://www.gingrichproductions.com/2013...ervatives/

Very eloquent video in that link. Gingrich is an authoritative historian with a PhD in the subject. Of course, that doesn't say much about his politics (where I sometimes agree with his observations but rarely his solutions), though he has a masterful command of historical subjects that he often showcases in his political speeches and interviews. Very impressive words about Mandela.

Post: #134

(12-10-2013 02:00 PM)Vicious Wrote:  Kanye West "I'm going to be the next Nelson Mandela"

Haha. That was a hoax. Some satirical website similar to The Onion published a fake article that "quoted" Kanye saying that but it wasn't true. Many people assumed it was real, similar to when the Onion said Kim Jong Un was the world's sexiest leader and many people in China thought it was a real story.

http://metro.co.uk/2013/12/09/kanye-west...m-4224206/

Post: #135

Oh I didn't mean it was true, which is why I didn't link (I always put up sources)

But the thing is that no one would be surprised if Kanye said it.

Post: #136

(12-08-2013 04:07 PM)Samseau Wrote:  Mandala, the icon of peace:

"that lazily designed graph comes from none other than a white nationalist website"

Samseau,

Do you consider yourself a White Nationalist???

I am not asking this to try and discredit you.

I ask because I am curiuos and also facinated.

If you are, I would not respect you any less.

In fact, if you own it proudly, I would respect you more for being open and honest about it.

I don't agree with everything that white nationalists say but I do think that they have a right to their opinion just like anybody else.

I ask this because I remember once reading a post about your experience being around white supremists and I saw your avatar on a white nationalist website..

Also, I think you are half-Asian? How does this effect your position amoung the white nationalist crowd? (If you are a part of that crowd)

Race is a facinating subject as it effects our thinking and perspective on very deep levels.

Post: #137

Haha Zuma was booed by his own people. Pretty embarrassing.

Post: #138

Quote:Obama Takes a Selfie at Mandela Memorial ...

   


http://nation.foxnews.com/2013/12/10/oba...a-memorial

This photo speaks volumes.

Post: #139

Barack Obama and David Cameron double teaming the Danish PM. LOL--that is true international cooperation. Too bad Michelle is such a cock-blocker

Post: #140

Why aren't 3 world leaders taking Mandela's death serious? Not one, but 3. Maybe they know something we don't?

Post: #141

(12-10-2013 04:45 PM)Aliblahba Wrote:  This photo speaks volumes.

Obama:

"I'd hate myself if I had that kind of attitude, if I were that weak." - Arnold

Post: #142

(12-10-2013 04:45 PM)Aliblahba Wrote:  

Quote:Obama Takes a Selfie at Mandela Memorial ...

http://nation.foxnews.com/2013/12/10/oba...a-memorial

This photo speaks volumes.

7/10. WB for novelty. Nice for a 46 year old.

Obama's side piece?

Post: #143

The best part is Michelle Obama's reaction:

Post: #144

(12-10-2013 05:00 PM)Aliblahba Wrote:  Why aren't 3 world leaders taking Mandela's death serious? Not one, but 3. Maybe they know something we don't?

Haha, I don't think it's inappropriate. Mandela's passing didn't take anyone by surprise. He's been sick for a long time and people assumed he would die at any moment once his health took a turn for the worse a few months ago. In fact, the Secret Service was in touch with South African officials then to discuss logistics for the inevitable moment.

Even the last time Obama met with Mandela, where they took the only pic they've ever had together, Mandela was already frail.



People have had a long time to prepare for his inevitable death and reflect on his memory, so it's not sad as it otherwise could have been.

Post: #145

That is an amazing photograph.

Post: #146

(12-10-2013 05:00 PM)Aliblahba Wrote:  Why aren't 3 world leaders taking Mandela's death serious? Not one, but 3. Maybe they know something we don't?

The guy lived 95 years. It's not like he was tragically cut down in his prime. When someone lives that long, I think you should celebrate their life more than you mourn their death.

Post: #147

The big scandal of the day is Obama shaking hands with Cuban President Raul Castro. The powerful Cuban-American lobby is already heated. It's already being talked about on the House floor where it's being reprimanded.

Post: #148

But isn't this fitting? At Nelson Mandela's funeral - you should be allowed to try and be civil to your 'enemies'.

Post: #149

Interesting article here about how Nelson Mandela became a global icon.

Seems the British anti-apartheid organisations were the ones pushing for a global figurehead in their struggle against apartheid.

The article says that Mandela saw himself as a servant of the ANC first and foremost.

http://africanarguments.org/2013/12/10/r...x-de-waal/

I find this interesting. Since - if another one of the political prisoners of the ANC had been 'chosen' as the figurehead - we would perhaps be remembering them. And today - Mandela would be an unknown figure on the global stage.

Post: #150