(10-02-2016 09:34 AM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  

(10-05-2015 08:08 AM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  [quote='nek' pid='1124762' dateline='1444024488']
No Coffee? Is caffeine really that bad for you?

The short answer is, it depends. The longer answer:

Caffeine is a potent drug who potency is greatly underappreciated. It is one of the very few substances whose content is measured in micrograms, which should tell you something about its power. Minute amounts of caffeine have significant effects.

Is it bad for you? For most people, taking caffeine in moderation, in the first part of the day, and never on an empty stomach, is harmless and could even be mildly beneficial. If you are an average person and you just have a cup of coffee a day, either after breakfast or after lunch, there is usually nothing wrong with that.

However. Abuse of caffeine -- drinking too much of it, drinking it on an empty stomach, using it as a crutch to stay up or stay wakeful on a regular basis, etc -- can be very harmful over time and I believe the harm it does is yet to be fully realized. It depletes the adrenal glands, and it is a significant cause of anxiety, fatigue, and mild depression (dysthymia). Overconsumption of caffeine, or consumption of it too close to bedtime, changes and distorts the structure of the sleep cycle and degrades sleep quality. I've lost count of people I know who always seem a little tired, a little wired, and occasionally a little down, and when you question them it turns out they drink coffee at all times.

Further. While moderate and correct usage of caffeine is harmless for most people, there are some, the genetically depressive and anxious types, whose brains are exquisitely sensitive to all central nervous system depressants and stimulants. For people who have such delicate brain chemistry, staying away from all these substances -- what I called above going "full Mormon" -- is the best choice they can make. For an exquisitely sensitive brain it is very difficult to calibrate the amount of a substance that will do no harm -- and their brains will typically want more, so it is also hard to stop at that amount. It's best for them to just step out of the substance game altogether.

Men with such exquisitely sensitive brains are, for obvious reasons, over-represented on a drinking wagon thread. So while for most guys -- and even for many guys on this thread -- moderate, early in the day, full stomach consumption of caffeine is basically fine, there will be quite a few guys on this thread for whom the full Mormon program would be strongly advised and is their best bet for a healthy and enjoyable life.

God, I think I'm one of these individuals with a super sensitive brain. If I have a cup of coffee, my day is more or less ruined: I'm irritable, can't concentrate, suffer dysthymia, and just feel overall terrible. It took me years to figure out that my daily consumption of a cup of coffee triggered my crippling anxiety and frequent panic attacks. But why does coffee have to taste so good?

Alcohol I'm less certain about, but I do know that I just don't feel as good the next day if I had imbibed even one beer the day before. I try to limit my drinking given that both my father and grandfather were alcoholics. Yet, I'm a huge fan of wine paired with food and have assembled a large wine collection. However, after reading LoZ's posts I will admit that I've suffered from poor mood for over a decade now, probably since I graduated from college. Life is just not that interesting anymore. More and more I think it's related to just my extremely sensitive brain chemistry, but I'm not certain.

I might already have a year off booze, my vice is painkillers and prescription cough syrup which I've been off since February,

So yes a bit off topic but I am determined to stay off all that, 5 months it will be a year, gotta stay focused stay grindin.

I'm 21 right now and I've already been fucked up by drugs. I've managed to quit everything but adderall and alcohol. The two go hand-in-hand for a college student...put off work that should be done on the weekends so I could get piss drunk instead.

I'm sick of this cycle, and I would love to be clean. Im starting to abhor both substances. Sign me up for a year. start date: October 5, 2016.

The social pressure at 21 makes it quite challenging but I'm sure I can do it.

(10-05-2016 06:19 AM)Gyro Wrote:  I'm 21 right now and I've already been fucked up by drugs. I've managed to quit everything but adderall and alcohol. The two go hand-in-hand for a college student...put off work that should be done on the weekends so I could get piss drunk instead.

I'm sick of this cycle, and I would love to be clean. Im starting to abhor both substances. Sign me up for a year. start date: October 5, 2016.

The social pressure at 21 makes it quite challenging but I'm sure I can do it.

Is Adderall commonplace on campus? Gosh, when I went to college we drank and smoked weed, but I never heard of anyone using Ritalin or any racetam. Maybe I was just not in the know.

Good luck to your journey. The peer pressure will be immense. It gets a lot better after college since you'll be more on your own.

Im back on in. Been alcohol free since Sept 2. Im having some problems sleeping which is a bit strange but other then that, feeling awesome.

I’ve returned to this thread for the first time since around the beginning of June when I purposely jumped off the wagon after 167 days. My story mimics other’s here in that I thought I could lower my intake because hey life is too short not to drink a beer with friends during a BBQ in the summer, right? During most of those 167 days I was living in China and very unhappy with everything from the people, the food, pollution, my apartment, my job, etc and I was feeling alone. I remember this wagon was very difficult for me once I passed 30 days, counting days and trying to give myself small numerical milestones to achieve. I remember I was pretty sure I would stop at 100 days but I continued. I had beer in my shopping cart once or twice before the end but ended up putting it back because I didn’t want to end my streak.



At the end I decided to drink again and I documented how I felt during each beer and the time to consume. I no longer have this sheet but I do remember feeling a buzz after 1 which was rare and during the 2nd or 3rd I wasn’t feeling good and was unsure if I wanted to continue. The first couple beers tasted like shit obviously and I think I ended up having around 7 which is close to normal for me or even on the light side. As you can all imagine drinking at home by myself turned into an everyday thing more or less pretty quickly.



After about a month or so of drinking in China I went to SEA for 2.5 months where I really let go and was drinking a lot and smoking a lot of marijuana, I was like a kid in a candy store coming from boring ass China. Back to having a GREAT time and fucking hot girls again, I was loving life. After a couple weeks of this I started wondering if this is heaven or hell as I could already see the monotony and the crowd this lifestyle attracted. Then I reached the stage where after 5 -7 beers and 2 spliffs I would feel normal if I hadn’t smoked in the past 20-30 minutes. I was also drinking earlier and earlier so by 2pm I was probably already drinking or smoking every day. I only didn’t drink for the couple of days that I was really sick during this time and still smoked and drank on days where I was not well and shouldn’t have. My experience with starting to smoke marijuana again mimicked my experience with starting to drink again, it was AMAZING at first and slowly it lessened the effects and I needed more and more to achieve a lower high.



During this time I was definitely more irritable and this probably caused problems with my relationship I had. I also started having bad night sweats which was a little embarrassing as I could tell my girl thought I pissed the bed the first time it happened. It was also affecting my thought process as I was starting to think about putting down roots with a less than ideal woman in a location where I’m far from my best partly because of the cheap beer and easily available weed.



I’m currently back in China and today is my 5th day sober, I am FULLY committed to this now as I’m in my mid-30’s and I know I can’t continue with this lifestyle, nor do I want to. In only 5 days I’m already feeling much more clear-headed, calm and sleeping better. After catching up in this thread I have decided to go the full Mormon route as I am a coffee abuser during the day until I start drinking again. I’ve downloaded the Allen Carr book and will start reading it this weekend.



I want to thank everyone in this thread for their contributions, especially TLOZ . This thread is a remarkable source of wisdom and inspiration.

My new start date is 10/3/16, I’m excited yet focused and calm for the days that lay ahead. I will approach this as a decision to better myself and my life and not a decision for only the next year.

TLoO, I know you have written about sunlamps before. I have developed a pretty severe case of SAD from living on a tropical island with no seasons for the first 3 decades of my life. I normally get very depressed when the weather turns cold and dark. My sleep patterns have been great since I stopped imbibing three weeks ago tomorrow but I am worried about the depression that comes every winter. I know you were recommending a certain lamp and brand at a certain time. Do you have a recent recommendation? I have only in the last few years realized what is happening to me every year and reading your thread on the sun lamps helped me. I plan on getting one this fall before winter begins. Which lamp do you recommend?

Sun box Junior

http://www.sunbox.com

You know how Calculus hasn't changed in 200 years but the textbook publishers still make college students buy the new edition every year? You think the Light Therapy industry has somehow figured out how to get the benefits of a 10 000 Lux model that requires 30 minutes of exposure every morning into a new model that promises the same benefits with a 29 minute exposure?





you are needling Liz with questions he has already answered (ie coffee) that you could easily figure out with common sense...

To make up for being a prick and calling your questions out, I will not drink tonight in solidarity with you

(10-04-2016 08:43 AM)PUA_Rachacha Wrote:  God, I think I'm one of these individuals with a super sensitive brain. If I have a cup of coffee, my day is more or less ruined: I'm irritable, can't concentrate, suffer dysthymia, and just feel overall terrible. It took me years to figure out that my daily consumption of a cup of coffee triggered my crippling anxiety and frequent panic attacks. But why does coffee have to taste so good?

Alcohol I'm less certain about, but I do know that I just don't feel as good the next day if I had imbibed even one beer the day before. I try to limit my drinking given that both my father and grandfather were alcoholics. Yet, I'm a huge fan of wine paired with food and have assembled a large wine collection. However, after reading LoZ's posts I will admit that I've suffered from poor mood for over a decade now, probably since I graduated from college. Life is just not that interesting anymore. More and more I think it's related to just my extremely sensitive brain chemistry, but I'm not certain.

Well, why don't you give the Full Mormon program a shot for a year and see how that affects you? No drinks, no coffee, no stimulants or depressants of any kind, just water (with lemon a la Giovonny if you like) and a good, wholesome, plain diet with plenty of high quality fats and proteins. And maybe a light box for 30 minutes every morning, same time, if you need to regularize your sleep schedule.

As good as a cup of coffee or a glass of wine with dinner can taste -- and they can certainly be damn good -- there is nothing that feels better than waking up rested and refreshed every morning, having a good, even mood and plenty of energy through the day, and then feeling sleepy and ready to turn off like a light at bedtime. It's like a daily miracle; like a smile from life itself. If you can have that, how can the brief jolt from any stimulant or substance compare?

Give it a try for a year, be consistent, and see how it affects your general well-being and daily disposition. That's the only way to find out.

(10-05-2016 06:19 AM)Gyro Wrote:  I'm 21 right now and I've already been fucked up by drugs. I've managed to quit everything but adderall and alcohol. The two go hand-in-hand for a college student...put off work that should be done on the weekends so I could get piss drunk instead.

I'm sick of this cycle, and I would love to be clean. Im starting to abhor both substances. Sign me up for a year. start date: October 5, 2016.

The social pressure at 21 makes it quite challenging but I'm sure I can do it.

Gyro, I would normally say that 21 is a little young for a drinking wagon -- I know that I was able to get drunk at that age with NO consequences, and certainly no need to jam my brain with speed to get work done later -- but if you've already abused other drugs, it's a little different. A clean break may well be a good idea. In any case, please don't use that Adderall garbage -- it's just terrible for you and turns people into zombies over time. Let go of it and never look back.

Welcome aboard as of October 5, 2016 and I look forward to hearing more from you in this thread as time goes on.

(10-07-2016 06:35 AM)JohnnyAppleSeeds Wrote:  My new start date is 10/3/16, I’m excited yet focused and calm for the days that lay ahead. I will approach this as a decision to better myself and my life and not a decision for only the next year.

JohnnyAppleSeeds, thanks for the post. A good rule of thumb is this: anyone who feels compelled to document how they feel after each beer -- or the consumption of any other substance -- is better off giving up these substances altogether. If your brain is that sensitive, then the best dosing is always zero, the full Mormon approach. So you are making a wise decision, and I hope you stick to it for the duration.

Welcome back aboard as of October 3, 2016 and I look forward to hearing more from you here over time.

(10-08-2016 03:23 PM)AboveAverageJoe Wrote:  TLoO, I know you have written about sunlamps before. I have developed a pretty severe case of SAD from living on a tropical island with no seasons for the first 3 decades of my life. I normally get very depressed when the weather turns cold and dark. My sleep patterns have been great since I stopped imbibing three weeks ago tomorrow but I am worried about the depression that comes every winter. I know you were recommending a certain lamp and brand at a certain time. Do you have a recent recommendation? I have only in the last few years realized what is happening to me every year and reading your thread on the sun lamps helped me. I plan on getting one this fall before winter begins. Which lamp do you recommend?

AAJ, like komatiite said, the recommendation hasn't changed. I still like the Sunlight Jr., made by Sunbox:

http://www.sunbox.com/shop/10000-lux-bri...ight-jr-2/

Please take a look at the OP to the bright light therapy thread, and follow the instructions there:

https://www.rooshvforum.com/thread-39799.html

There is no question that, if used correctly and consistently, bright light therapy is curative of SAD: you simply will not experience the normal winter depression if you do this, so it should be a no-brainer for you. Do it now, since the days are already signficantly shorter and this is the time when SAD starts setting in for those who suffer from it.

(10-09-2016 09:14 AM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  

(10-08-2016 03:23 PM)AboveAverageJoe Wrote:  TLoO, I know you have written about sunlamps before. I have developed a pretty severe case of SAD from living on a tropical island with no seasons for the first 3 decades of my life. I normally get very depressed when the weather turns cold and dark. My sleep patterns have been great since I stopped imbibing three weeks ago tomorrow but I am worried about the depression that comes every winter. I know you were recommending a certain lamp and brand at a certain time. Do you have a recent recommendation? I have only in the last few years realized what is happening to me every year and reading your thread on the sun lamps helped me. I plan on getting one this fall before winter begins. Which lamp do you recommend?

AAJ, like komatiite said, the recommendation hasn't changed. I still like the Sunlight Jr., made by Sunbox:

http://www.sunbox.com/shop/10000-lux-bri...ight-jr-2/

Please take a look at the OP to the bright light therapy thread, and follow the instructions there:

https://www.rooshvforum.com/thread-39799.html

There is no question that, if used correctly and consistently, bright light therapy is curative of SAD: you simply will not experience the normal winter depression if you do this, so it should be a no-brainer for you. Do it now, since the days are already signficantly shorter and this is the time when SAD starts setting in for those who suffer from it.

Thanks I wanted to hear it from you as someone who is knowledgeable on the subject and to see if you had possibly found a better product since your last recommendation.
I trust your endorsement.
I don't think it would be hyperbole to call you the most valuable forum member.
Three weeks today, I did want to drink yesterday, but didn't.
It is weird, I have cravings but they have been very fleeting and short and my inner voice has been able to quickly out-reason the pro-drinking whisper.
Thanks again, TLoO.

Half-way point check in. 6 months down and still going strong.

I think the only time I truly craved a drink was a couple weeks ago when I went to a jazz show. Listening to jazz in an intimate setting with an old-fashioned, or martini was always a favorite of mine; and something felt a bit off listening to jazz while nursing a club soda.

But I digress, I have experienced plenty of positive changes since April.

Most notably is my mood. In the past I suffered from severe anxiety and depression, but now, my mind feels clearer. I'm not nearly as irritable, and love the calmness of a saturday morning in which I'm not busy trying to clear the haze out of mind after a Friday of heavy drinking. I know LoZ mentioned it before, but anyone who has suffered from depression should try getting off the sauce first before doing anything more drastic.

My confidence has also drastically improved. Day, night, solo, rolling with groups, I have lost nearly all my inhibitions when it comes to game.

Highlight of my ride so far: I went out with a law student the other day. I had seen her around a few times, and finally got her number. I don't know how she knew it, but she knew I wasn't drinking anymore. She then proceeded to hamsterize why I would take her to a bar when I don't drink; and kept trying to rationalize why she drinks, and its not bad if you can keep it in moderation. I just kept nodding and saying mmmhm as she kept burrowing herself further and further into her word vomit. *Did not get the bang yet but will pursue till bang, but NOT date.

Thanks to everyone how has candidly shared their stories here, and consistent support from those who have been through the process. Here's to the next 6 months, and I look forward to hearing everyone's experiences!

Still strong since dec. 29 2015, I can say willpower is one of my virtues when running in NO CAFFEINE, NO NICOTINE, NO FAP, NO PORN, NO ALCOHOL and almost zero sugar mode. This year I met my father by first time, and during this awkward meeting told me he used to be alcoholic and now is in some religion, I felt like an accomplishment to have this 9 months in the wagon and be in the right track.

A question guys, Is it a major red flag for you if a girl drinks alcohol? I´m starting to catch feelings with this girl (mexican, 28 y/o, HB 7.5) drinks 2-3 glasses of wine or beer in social meetings (that´s what she says), makes me feel uncomfortable just thinking about that. After 3 dates and several bangs she have never been drinking in front of me.

I'm back stateside now. Good cruise, but time again to cut off the booze.

My second first-year wagon began day 1 on 10/11/2016. This is approximately 3 months after completing my initial wagon year on 7/4/2016. Although I have shared tales of woe here from my ill-fated attempt at moderation post-wagon, I cannot emphasize enough the mistake that I made attempting an intermission.

The prospect of this second wagon does not draw apprehension within me at all as the goal I know personally to be fully achievable. I am realizing the choice needs to be more of a durable lifestyle adjustment and not an annual goal, at least for me.

DTD

(10-02-2016 09:41 AM)Tokyo Joe Wrote:  

(10-02-2016 09:27 AM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  not a single drink for 365 days, rain or shine, good days, bad days, empty days...

Yeah Lizard, I have been meaning to ask you about that.

This year, as you know, is a leap year, so everyone (like me) who started before February 29 would be committed to 366 days without a drink -- if they were to finish on the same date they began. But if it's strictly 365 days, then for instance my October 17 start would mean an October 16 completion...

Just asking...umm, "for the record."

Hey Joe, my first wagon was also over a leap year. I took the 366 days but felt cheated by "having" to stay sober the extra day, ha. But that was me planning intentionally to drink again after the "year" was over, or would never have been a point of contention.

DTD

(10-13-2016 11:00 PM)DTD309 Wrote:  I'm back stateside now. Good cruise, but time again to cut off the booze.

My second first-year wagon began day 1 on 10/11/2016. This is approximately 3 months after completing my initial wagon year on 7/4/2016. Although I have shared tales of woe here from my ill-fated attempt at moderation post-wagon, I cannot emphasize enough the mistake that I made attempting an intermission.

The prospect of this second wagon does not draw apprehension within me at all as the goal I know personally to be fully achievable. I am realizing the choice needs to be more of a durable lifestyle adjustment and not an annual goal, at least for me.

DTD

DTD, thanks for this post and welcome aboard as of October 11, 2016. I look forward to hearing more from you here as time goes on.

I'm a young guy and tried the wagon 2 years ago, but decided to give in to social pressure and partake in the favorite pastime of college, namely heavy drinking. Many drunken and hazy nights later, I decide to start again this time, starting from today, 14th of October 2016.

Had an interesting experience last night. I had a friend I hadn't seen in over a year call me out of the blue yesterday who said he had heard through the grapevine that I had quit drinking. He had just got a DUI and during the ordeal was caught with some illicit drugs. Buddy has a law degree and will likely lose his job because of this, a total rock bottom. I ended up meeting with him at like 10PM and he admitted that his drinking had really started to ruin his life, and it was a massive problem. He asked about AA meetings, and so I said let's go to one, there are always late night ones on weekends. Get the first one out of the way with someone you know with you to make it easier, I suppose.

So we went, and he put his hand up when they asked if there were any newcomers, and he got some phone numbers. People talked about what their lives were like when they had quit and how they are now finally dealing with all of the problems that stacked up when they were out drinking. Some of the stuff said was totally retarded, and some of it really made sense. Typical AA meeting I suppose.

Afterwards, some old guy pulled my friend aside so I just sat by the smoke pit looking at my phone. Someone came up to me and asked "what are you doing here man". I said "Well, I come to these because they help you quit drinking." He was like "Yeah but you come by yourself? Nobody makes you go?" I said "Yes, why?" and he said "Oh I have to go to these as part of my probation, I hate them."

He will probably end up back in jail, if that is his mind set even after he had legal issues that likely stemmed from drinking.

I was thinking about it all morning. When I did first attempted to quit drinking in 2014, I think there was a big element of appeasing others involved in quitting. I had really burned some friends, was trying to prevent my GF from leaving me, and let down my family, and out of desperation, I felt like quitting drinking would alleviate those concerns. Four months later I was back to putting myself to sleep with a pint of vodka several nights a week. Girl was gone, buddies stopped calling me, and my dad once welled up in tears when I came to a brunch one morning smelling like a brewery. I didn't want to quit for ME, I wanted to please others, so the motivation died quickly.

It has to come from within -- where do you see yourself in a decade? Twenty years? When you are on your death bed, what do you want to see when you look back on your life? In AA, they always talk about a 'Higher Power,' and although I don't believe in some singular God, I always try to think of myself as an old man, looking back at times I wish I had done something different. How can I minimize those thoughts when I am that old? For me personally, 90% of the bad/regretful shit I have done in my life has been a direct consequence of drinking, so the solution is straightforward to me. That's how I have figured out how to rationalize the 'Power Greater Than Yourself" in AA meetings -- that 'higher power' is myself at the end of my life, and doing what I can do TODAY to ensure that I can be at peace with my life when I drift off towards my final reckoning.

Maybe only 5% of the population has the same relationship with alcohol that I have, ie, once I start, I cannot stop until blackout, and I will prioritize it over everything else. I sometimes wish I was a true moderate drinker, but I am not. For those people who can relate to that statement, be honest with yourself and ask "when I am an 80 year old man, do I want to look back at my life with a smile, knowing that I did everything I set out to do, or do I think I sold myself short because of drinking?" And drinking is only the first part -- now that I can't hide behind the bottle, I really need to dig deep to improve myself since the veneer is gone:
-Physically: Get out and go for a run, lift some weights, get into good shape so I don't lack confidence because I am uncomfortable in my own skin
-Socially: Learn how to talk to girls and even my buddies in settings where the social lubricant of booze isn't the only thing we share in common
-Emotionally: Control my feelings of isolation, guilt, anxiety etc in healthier ways besides boozing
-Intellectually: Fill the void left behind by drinking by working as hard as I can at work, reading about History, Politics, etc, get better at my interests such as fishing, golfing, cooking, skiing: improve my knowledge in these fields so I can enjoy them more

Who knows what will happen to my buddy -- I'm not going to hold his hand through his plight or get emotionally involved with someone else's sobriety. But if he can stay off the sauce for a couple months while at the lowest of lows, maybe that inner desire to make a better life for himself will emerge. It's taken me a long time to come to this state of mind, but now that I understand that alcohol & drugs will continue to hold me back and ultimately prevent me from attaining much of anything in life, I try my best to think of "Old Man Komatiite" looking back at my life when I start daydreaming about going to the beer store and grabbing a case.

What do you know? It is Monday afternoon, October 17, 2016. It has been a full three hundred and sixty-six days since my last taste of the sauce that sweet Saturday morning in the Tsukiji market.

And here now is a live feed from a Tokyo banquet hall of me making some remarks on the occasion and taking my very first drink in a full year --



***
Perhaps I will have more to say about the past year some time later, but for the moment I just want to put a marker down to note that I rode out the year without incident, and that I am disembarking here. --TJ

TJ, congrats on completing the 1 year wagon, and enjoy your fall drinks. I have no doubt it was a memorable year for you, and I hope to hear about it some day.

And, of course, a +1 rep point from me that I've long looked forward to giving.

(10-17-2016 01:18 AM)Tokyo Joe Wrote:  What do you know? It is Monday afternoon, October 17, 2016. It has been a full three hundred and sixty-six days since my last taste of the sauce that sweet Saturday morning in the Tsukiji market.

And here now is a live feed from a Tokyo banquet hall of me making some remarks on the occasion and taking my very first drink in a full year --
***
Perhaps I will have more to say about the past year some time later, but for the moment I just want to put a marker down to note that I rode out the year without incident, and that I am disembarking here. --TJ

Good luck, sir! Well done sticking out the leap day.

DTD

TJ,

I'm going to make a suggestion to you that you may not like -- but I'll make it anyway because I'm convinced it's right.

It is this: you should, as I wrote earlier, enjoy your fall drinks; to be precise, enjoy them for the next three weeks, through November 8th. Then, on November 9th you should start a new 1 year wagon -- and consider extending that for another year when the time comes.

The reason I say it is this: I've read your posts in this thread -- and elsewhere -- very closely and repeatedly. And I believe that what they say is this: you love drinking more than anything else in the world. There is nothing you love more.

When you were wrote this two months ago:

(08-04-2016 10:15 PM)Tokyo Joe Wrote:  But for many months, starting not long after my last post in this thread back in March, I haven’t been thinking of this ordeal as a wagon ride. Rather, I’ve often (too often) been in the mind of a small-time convict doing a one-year stretch at San Quentin. That inmate pumps iron in the yard four days a week; he quietly studies his foreign language grammar in his cell; he eats truly well and squarely (the food is remarkably tasty -- after all it isn’t your Daddy’s San Quentin); and he enjoys a wildly liberal conjugal-visit policy, even if it’s the same rotation of visitors with little new blood. He does these things, and more, but all the while he schemes and plots and devises ever greater and bolder heists to pull off as soon as his time is up.

and this a bit later --

(08-23-2016 12:17 PM)Tokyo Joe Wrote:  Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not drink, I am become as a sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not drink, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not drink, it profiteth me nothing. Drink suffereth long, and is kind; drink envieth not; drink vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, doth not behave unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. . . . And now abideth faith, hope, drink, these three; but the greatest of these is drink.

-- you spoke from your true depth and from the bottom of your heart. You felt that drinking is beyond compare, the sweetest of all prizes; and once taken away, nothing else counts. That is what you felt, and it is what you still believe with the bitterness of a born drinker.

But you should know this, however little you may want to hear it: this is a terrible idea to truly feel to the bottom of your heart; it is not right for a man to feel this and live this past a certain age; and sooner or later -- but with grim dead certainty -- that idea and all that it implies will lead to the sort of depredations -- both physical and spiritual -- that I wrote about often in this thread. You have been exceptionally lucky to have escaped them wholly so far. Relish that superb reality -- and do not try your luck; the odds are stacked against you as the years go by if drink is the one master to whom you answer.

The way you felt 10 months in -- and indeed 12 months in -- is all you needed to know to be able to see that one year is not enough. It will take far longer than that to break that lifelong fealty -- and to have a second half of a life that is as inspired and as admirable as the first, it must be broken. This has not happened -- hasn't really even begun to happen, since through the entire year, and increasingly as time wore on, you've done nothing but plot your return to your life's unchanging secret center.

What you've earned through those months is this: a fall holiday, a final indulgence of that depth and sweetness that can be taken in with utter impunity if -- and only if -- its time is circumscribed. This should be the last Hoelderlinian fall of a certain kind and it should be enjoyed to the last drop -- and then the cup is to be set aside. On November 9th, a new time is coming which is likely to be cold and harsh for many men, and one must meet it on the terms it deserves and requires.

Please consider this.

**************

Although this post was written for TJ, I feel that it may be of some interest to other guys, especially those that have recently finished their 1 year wagon and have decided to step off. This is often not the best decision -- for those who drunk hard enough for long enough -- or just loved the sauce deeply enough -- one year is not nearly enough, it is just the beginning. But a last holiday of this kind can be indulged -- so that one does not feel cheated of a last fling with the mistress one must give up -- before an end, for a good long time, to all such holidays. I hope someone finds this idea to be of use.

(10-18-2016 09:05 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  TJ,

The reason I say it is this: I've read your posts in this thread -- and elsewhere -- very closely and repeatedly. And I believe that what they say is this: you love drinking more than anything else in the world. There is nothing you love more.

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Although this post was written for TJ, I feel that it may be of some interest to other guys, especially those that have recently finished their 1 year wagon and have decided to step off. This is often not the best decision -- for those who drunk hard enough for long enough -- or just loved the sauce deeply enough -- one year is not nearly enough, it is just the beginning. But a last holiday of this kind can be indulged -- so that one does not feel cheated of a last fling with the mistress one must give up -- before an end, for a good long time, to all such holidays. I hope someone finds this idea to be of use.

Have to say I completely identify with these assertions. By the end of my 3 month holiday from the wagon, I was nearly back to my pre-wagon drinking levels, behaviors, and consequences.

Point is that one year of wagon did not erase 15 years of hard drinking tolerance nor romance of the bottle. Beware the Wagon Holiday allure.

DTD