Post: #26

Interesting perspectives all around. Good job, gents. To add my two pennies, here is some food for thought.

"The root of the problem within black America is not teenage pregnancy, drugs, the decline in family values, anger, rap music, unemployment or even the epidemic of violent crime. These are only symptoms of the deeper problem. The root problem in the black communities across America is race and the unjust distribution of our nation's wealth, power and resources." - Dr. Claud Anderson

Post: #27

(12-06-2013 04:51 PM)El_Superbeasto Wrote:  So one of the big misconceptions I see here is that black people are much worse off than they were pre civil rights, and that's just not true. Ask any black person who was around back then and they'll tell you. Sure there are still a lot of broke blacks, but the black middle class is much larger than it has ever been, and by every measure of well being black people are doing better now than at any previous time in US history.

Yes, economically Blacks are doing better. Also, for the most part Whites can't kill/maimed Blacks with impunity and get away with it like they used to. However, Blacks are not in control of their economic destiny and are 100% dependent on the dominant society. This is a very weak and vulnerable position to be in. Black middle class is a mirage, a government created fantasy. Most middle class Blacks either work for the government directly /indirectly or depend on a White man for a check. This is a problem. What if Jim Crow comes back tomorrow and a decision is made to shut Blacks out of the labor market? We would be SOL. Its already happening, why you think even Republicans are into raising the minimum wage all of the sudden? If minimum wage is at least $15 an hour then its worthwhile for Whites to do even the most menial of jobs. Blacks should not allow that W2 they get at the end of January lull them into a state of complacency.

The same thing wont happen to Jews, Koreans, and even some Hispanics because of one simple word, entrepreneurship.

During Jim Crow there were Black owned sports leagues, transportation companies, media(newspapers, record labels,movie production),banks, colleges, etc. and all of this was without SBA(small business administration) or access to capital markets that White companies had.

All of the above disappeared the minute integration gained steam. As a case in point, the Negro leagues who had hands down the best baseball players folded shorty after Jackie Robinson went into the Brooklyn Dodgers, ditto for the Negro Basketball league.

MLK and other "mainstream" civil right leaders were within their rights to demand the end of extra judicial killing of Blacks and equal treatment under the law. However, they should have encouraged Blacks to remain economically self sufficient and to remain living next to one another.

If you notice, every other ethic group out there, self segregates... Only Blacks are the only ones who go out of their way to want to live next to Whites.

Post: #28

(12-06-2013 11:16 PM)playa_with_a_passport Wrote:  If you notice, every other ethic group out there, self segregates... Only Blacks are the only ones who go out of their way to want to live next to Whites.

African-Americans (as in those who descend from the folks who came over during slavery) are not immigrants though. They ARE Americans. They are the only group of people who didn't voluntarily come to the United States. The largest reported group of ancestry for Caucasian-Americans is German, followed by Irish. Both groups came to the US way after African-Americans. Yet, African-Americans have never been accepted as first class citizens. Even immigrant groups from Europe who came decades, even centuries, after would assimilate into the dominant racial group after a single generation, realizing advantages they never had back in the lands they came from. Not the case with African-Americans.

That immigrant background makes for a huge difference in matters of personal identity and group success. One poster mentioned Armenians, Iranians, Koreans, etc. There are entrepreneurial black immigrant communities like that as well (Nigerians, Ethiopians, Jamaicans, etc). That's just a matter of being an immigrant ethnic group, not about color.

I also think the pre-integration era is being romanticized a bit too much. Times were not good at all then for black people. Poverty was endemic and economic control of black neighborhoods - housing, retail, etc - still largely went to whites (especially in urban areas). The South saw a massive exodus of its black population to northern cities where blacks worked primarily in manufacturing (for who?). The kind of black wealth you see today was simply unheard of then.

Post: #29

(12-06-2013 11:16 PM)playa_with_a_passport Wrote:  Yes, economically Blacks are doing better. Also, for the most part Whites can't kill/maimed Blacks with impunity and get away with it like they used to.

Incomes are higher but not wealth:
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/201...alth-isnt/

Also when you factor in the incarceration rate ...

Post: #30

(11-20-2013 02:00 PM)Frost Wrote:  Open question to everyone but especially the black guys on the forum: What do you think of the black men who opposed the civil rights movement?

I've read The Autobiography of Malcolm X at least five times, and I have infinitely more respect for him than guys like Martin Luther King and his modern successors like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson.

It seems to me that the American black community would be much better off today if it had followed men in the tradition of Booker T Washington, Marcus Garvey, and Malcom X in working to create self-reliant black communities, rather than men like Dubois and King who - whether it was their intention or not - created a culture of black dependence on, and alliance with, elite whites.

The progressive approach to race relations seems to have been very effective at turning American blacks into Democrats, while destroying the black community.

The black community was fine up until it ran into global white supremacy. Once that system is abolished and replaced with something better we can talk details.

Post: #31

^^^^ The funny thing about those immigrants like the Irish and the Italians, and the Polish was that they were treated as second class citizens and they were shitted on as well. The Irish were considered as "half nig#$s" when they came here. The first Italian immigrants that came here were seeing as sub-human and inferior. Once these groups of immigrants were given the green light and were accepted by the dominant society, they became even more racist towards blacks. Many Irish took jobs in law enforcement during the 40s and 50s and were the ones spraying blacks with water hoses and beating them with batons in the northern cities. Its amazing how someone who was once subjugated, could turn around and do the same to another group once they are given privileges and power.

People like Bill O' Reiley and Sean Hannity, who are both of Irish descent should really brush up on their history before they make remarks and attacking rap and hip pop and saying sleazy remarks about the African American community.

Post: #32

(12-07-2013 01:00 AM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

(12-06-2013 11:16 PM)playa_with_a_passport Wrote:  If you notice, every other ethic group out there, self segregates... Only Blacks are the only ones who go out of their way to want to live next to Whites.

African-Americans (as in those who descend from the folks who came over during slavery) are not immigrants though. They ARE Americans. They are the only group of people who didn't voluntarily come to the United States. The largest reported group of ancestry for Caucasian-Americans is German, followed by Irish. Both groups came to the US way after African-Americans. Yet, African-Americans have never been accepted as first class citizens. Even immigrant groups from Europe who came decades, even centuries, after would assimilate into the dominant racial group after a single generation, realizing advantages they never had back in the lands they came from. Not the case with African-Americans.

It actually makes perfect sense as to why AA were never assimilated because at the end of the day is all about White genetic survival. If you look at race in that context then it all makes perfect sense. White Supremacy/Racism is the biggest hamster of them all. A lot of time and energy is being spent on persuading Blacks that they are inferior, this has been going on for hundreds of years. You ever wondered "why?"

Even though the original Anglo-Saxons were no fans of Europeans that they considered of lesser stock, they were still White enough to propagate the race. Think about it, why else would a country spend so much time and effort(jim crow, red lining,block busting, lynching,) to keep less than 15% of its population disenfranchised and broke?

Blacks having the same benefits and opportunities as White males translate into White genetic annihilation. Its that simple. If you make the same money and have the same rights as a White man, then what's to stop you from rawdogging and busting nuts into as many White women you can get a hold off? The offspring is going to be non-white, repeat that millions of times.. Well you get the picture. White males need White women in order to have White babies. The fate of the White race is literally between a White women legs.

Why you think they had laws against miscegenation? White men could fuck whoever they feel like, yet it was(still is) taboo for a White women to sleep with a Blacks. The reason why drugs are even illegal because during the progressive era, the elites believed that drugs would encouraged White women to sleep with Black men.

Quote:That immigrant background makes for a huge difference in matters of personal identity and group success. One poster mentioned Armenians, Iranians, Koreans, etc. There are entrepreneurial black immigrant communities like that as well (Nigerians, Ethiopians, Jamaicans, etc). That's just a matter of being an immigrant ethnic group, not about color.

Every Black(foreign or domestic) person in America, usually sooner rather than later will experience something that the comedian Paul Money calls N.W.C(Nigger Wake-up Call) Usually an incident with the police or at your job where you are reminded your position on the totem pole. This is also when immigrant Blacks realized that they are not as assimilated i.e. accepted as equals as they thought they were. Its actually quite disheartening seeing somebody twist themselves into a pretzel finding another explanation for what happened other than the obvious one.

Further, I don't put too much faith on studies but I remember reading a while ago(gonna have to dig it up) by the 2nd generation most of the descendants of Black immigrants academic performance no better than that of native born African Americans. I see this all the time, super high achieving African/West Indian/Afro-latin parent with shitty mediocre kids. We can't also discount the fact that its not a cake walk for a Black immigrant to even make it here; therefore, the ones who do tend to be the cream of the crop and have their shit together. Africans with the IQ of room temperature do not make it to JFK.

Quote:I also think the pre-integration era is being romanticized a bit too much. Times were not good at all then for black people. Poverty was endemic and economic control of black neighborhoods - housing, retail, etc - still largely went to whites (especially in urban areas). The South saw a massive exodus of its black population to northern cities where blacks worked primarily in manufacturing (for who?). The kind of black wealth you see today was simply unheard of then.

You should check out the book "Our Kind of People: Inside America's Black Upper Class" and "Malcom X:Life of reinvention" touches on this. The northern cities were no cakewalk and still are very much segregated. Social mobility was very much very restricted until relatively recently. But you are right, I would not want to have been alive thru that period.

Post: #33

(12-07-2013 02:36 AM)MidWest Wrote:  Many Irish took jobs in law enforcement.

This is true even today. Irish-Americans are very prominent in law enforcement, from police officers to secret service members and detectives in various government agencies. Some of the most notable police chiefs in American history are of Irish descent (Bill Bratton, Ray Kelly, etc). Not sure what it is about their culture that lends itself to that profession.

Post: #34

(12-07-2013 03:29 AM)playa_with_a_passport Wrote:  

Quote:That immigrant background makes for a huge difference in matters of personal identity and group success. One poster mentioned Armenians, Iranians, Koreans, etc. There are entrepreneurial black immigrant communities like that as well (Nigerians, Ethiopians, Jamaicans, etc). That's just a matter of being an immigrant ethnic group, not about color.

Every Black(foreign or domestic) person in America, usually sooner rather than later will experience something that the comedian Paul Money calls N.W.C(Nigger Wake-up Call) Usually an incident with the police or at your job where you are reminded your position on the totem pole. This is also when immigrant Blacks realized that they are not as assimilated i.e. accepted as equals as they thought they were. Its actually quite disheartening seeing somebody twist themselves into a pretzel finding another explanation for what happened other than the obvious one.

Further, I don't put too much faith on studies but I remember reading a while ago(gonna have to dig it up) by the 2nd generation most of the descendants of Black immigrants academic performance no better than that of native born African Americans. I see this all the time, super high achieving African/West Indian/Afro-latin parent with shitty mediocre kids. We can't also discount the fact that its not a cake walk for a Black immigrant to even make it here; therefore, the ones who do tend to be the cream of the crop and have their shit together. Africans with the IQ of room temperature do not make it to JFK.

That's not true at all, sir. If you go to the most elite colleges and universities in the US, as many as two-thirds of the black students are from immigrant families from Africa or the Caribbean or of mixed-race. I know this from empirical evidence as well. Nigerian-Americans are the most educated group of Americans of any race.

This is interesting in that these blacks from foreign families are beneficiaries of affirmative action policies designed for native blacks; those that descended from slavery and Jim Crow.

Funny you mention Paul Mooney, but I think there are profound differences in perspectives between many blacks from Africa and many of those from the US about the American experience, not unlike those of other immigrants. There's an oft-cited quote about a Jamaican immigrant who once said, "I'm too busy working two jobs to worry about the white man's racism."

I also think African immigrants are viewed differently than African-Americans from many Americans (black and white). This is well-known.

Post: #35

(12-07-2013 06:01 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

(12-07-2013 02:36 AM)MidWest Wrote:  Many Irish took jobs in law enforcement.

This is true even today. Irish-Americans are very prominent in law enforcement, from police officers to secret service members and detectives in various government agencies. Some of the most notable police chiefs in American history are of Irish descent (Bill Bratton, Ray Kelly, etc). Not sure what it is about their culture that lends itself to that profession.

I don't think is cultural at all, at least not in the beginning. Most of the overseers during slavery times were Irish, that's basically a police type of job. Police jobs in the early 20th century were not always as prestigious and professional as they are today. Irish probably were attracted to law enforcement for the same reason that butlers were Black. Because those were probably only of the few jobs at the time that the elites allowed them to do.

(12-07-2013 06:22 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

(12-07-2013 03:29 AM)playa_with_a_passport Wrote:  ..

...


That's not true at all, sir. If you go to the most elite colleges and universities in the US, as many as two-thirds of the black students are from immigrant families from Africa or the Caribbean or of mixed-race. I know this from empirical evidence as well. Nigerian-Americans are the most educated group of Americans of any race.

Fair enough.

Quote:Funny you mention Paul Mooney, but I think there are profound differences in perspectives between many blacks from Africa and many of those from the US about the American experience, not unlike those of other immigrants. There's an oft-cited quote about a Jamaican immigrant who once said, "I'm too busy working two jobs to worry about the white man's racism."

I also think African immigrants are viewed differently than African-Americans from many Americans (black and white). This is well-known.

Always liked Spears, hands down the funniest guy on Mad TV back in the day. Wonder why he never blew up like Murphy, Rock, and even Tracy Morgan(whose wack seen him live) but I digress,

This is like when a Costa Rican tells me that the average White person knows or cares that he's not really Mexican.

I defer to your experience outside of NYC but I grew up with a ton of immigrant Blacks in NYC. The "We are superior than Black Americans and Whites see this" meme is something that I have heard more times that I can count. I never really put that too much stock into it, because on the following sentence, I heard Jamaicans tell me they are of superior stock to Trinis, tell me they are superior to Bajans and Haitians telling me that they are better than both Jamaicans and Black Americans.

The interesting thing is that I have have never heard this type of talk from 2nd generation immigrant Black American or somebody who has actually grew up or worked alongside Whites as equals or supervising them.

Post: #36

(12-07-2013 06:22 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  I also think African immigrants are viewed differently than African-Americans from many Americans (black and white). This is well-known.

I watched a documentary a few months ago about high school age refugees from Somalia. They complained bitterly about native-born black Americans (high school age) [paraphrasing] "they always want to fight us, even though they do not know us." lol. Most normal people need a reason for violence.

There is a Somalia enclave no too far from where I live. I never pay them no mind, unlike I would in a ghetto neighborhood, despite no difference between income levels.

Post: #37

FAKE WHITE LIBERALISM- by Tariq Nasheed


Minute 7:20 and on.





He goes very deep into racial politics and how outside forces are using game to show blacks in an inferior light today as displayed in hollywood and many others. Real interesting and really deep.

Post: #38

"I’ll have those niggers voting Democratic for the next 200 years.” —Lyndon B. Johnson to two governors on Air Force One

The vast majority of black Americans have been on the Democratic party plantation since then.

Dunno that there are many black civil rights activists these days; they mostly seem like government dependency activists. What would Malcolm X think of today's so-called black civil rights activists who advocate for giving up the right to effective self-defense?

Post: #39

(12-12-2013 05:34 PM)assman Wrote:  What would Malcolm X think of today's so-called black civil rights activists who advocate for giving up the right to effective self-defense?

It is a true shame that most African-Americans today do not realize that one of the primary reasons for the enactment of the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution (enacted by Republicans after the Civil War) was to prevent the southern States from disarming the newly freed slaves.

Now most African-Americans vote for the same party, which once again wants to disarm them -- and make them unarmed prey for criminals who, being criminals, will always have access to guns.

A few years later, Congress enacted the anti-Klu Klux Klan Act.

Quote:Under the Klan Act during Reconstruction, federal troops were used rather than state militias to enforce the law, and Klansmen were prosecuted in federal court, where juries were often predominantly black. Hundreds of Klan members were fined or imprisoned, and habeas corpus was suspended in nine counties in South Carolina. These efforts were so successful that the Klan was destroyed in South Carolina and decimated throughout the rest of the former Confederacy, where it had already been in decline for several years. The Klan was not to exist again until its recreation in 1915.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enforcement...ird_act%29

Post: #40

(12-07-2013 01:00 AM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

(12-06-2013 11:16 PM)playa_with_a_passport Wrote:  If you notice, every other ethic group out there, self segregates... Only Blacks are the only ones who go out of their way to want to live next to Whites.

African-Americans (as in those who descend from the folks who came over during slavery) are not immigrants though. They ARE Americans. They are the only group of people who didn't voluntarily come to the United States. The largest reported group of ancestry for Caucasian-Americans is German, followed by Irish. Both groups came to the US way after African-Americans. Yet, African-Americans have never been accepted as first class citizens. Even immigrant groups from Europe who came decades, even centuries, after would assimilate into the dominant racial group after a single generation, realizing advantages they never had back in the lands they came from. Not the case with African-Americans.

I know my family came over b/c they didn't want to live/die in a war torn Yugoslavian area. That obviously isn't the same as slavery, but I wouldn't exactly call that a choice either.

Post: #41

Quote:I know my family came over b/c they didn't want to live/die in a war torn Yugoslavian area. That obviously isn't the same as slavery, but I wouldn't exactly call that a choice either.

Bolded for emphasis.

Your family had the option and exercised a willful choice: They could've went to Canada, Great Britain, etcetera. Also plenty people stayed in Yugoslavia (I don't blame them for migrating).

An African kidnapped by a rival tribe or some Europeans had no say in if he was going to Haiti or South Carolina.

The difference is coercion.

Post: #42

(12-12-2013 08:38 PM)Goldin Boy Wrote:  

Quote:I know my family came over b/c they didn't want to live/die in a war torn Yugoslavian area. That obviously isn't the same as slavery, but I wouldn't exactly call that a choice either.

Bolded for emphasis.

Your family had the option and exercised a willful choice: They could've went to Canada, Great Britain, etcetera. Also plenty people stayed in Yugoslavia (I don't blame them for migrating).

An African kidnapped by a rival tribe or some Europeans had no say in if he was going to Haiti or South Carolina.

The difference is coercion.

It isn't like my family owned the ship or anything. They had to go where it was going.

Post: #43

(12-12-2013 08:52 PM)Seaver Wrote:  

(12-12-2013 08:38 PM)Goldin Boy Wrote:  

Quote:I know my family came over b/c they didn't want to live/die in a war torn Yugoslavian area. That obviously isn't the same as slavery, but I wouldn't exactly call that a choice either.

Bolded for emphasis.

Your family had the option and exercised a willful choice: They could've went to Canada, Great Britain, etcetera. Also plenty people stayed in Yugoslavia (I don't blame them for migrating).

An African kidnapped by a rival tribe or some Europeans had no say in if he was going to Haiti or South Carolina.

The difference is coercion.

It isn't like my family owned the ship or anything. They had to go where it was going.

lol. I think his point was that your family made the conscious decision to purchase the ticket for transport on the ship -- versus being shackled in the hold against your will.

My family came to the U.S. when the Soviet tanks rolled into their homeland during WWII. I recently asked my father whether his family ever considered going back to their Soviet-occupied homeland after the war. All he said was "No" -- and looked at me as if I were insane. They obviously knew the Russians well.

Post: #44

Not quite pertaining to the US situation, but still highly relevant considering that the descendants of Africans exist in almost all post colonial western countries.

This is France's story, and how it came to demographically resemble the USA in the past 60 years.

Post: #45

France is also struggling with issues of race, immigration, religion, etc.

Back in 2000 a friend of mine was down in Australia, when the Olympics were in Sydney. After the games, he made his way down to Melbourne to hook up with friends (he's in the music business, and was hooking up with Aliyah's people - she was down there shooting "Village of the Damned"). They went out one night, and ran into a couple of African dudes. The cats were acting somewhat hostile towards him, and my boy just couldn't blow it off. So he stepped to them and asked them what their problem was. Apparently, they had issues with American blacks, because they felt they were lazy, complaining, etc. etc. That they didn't see the opportunity in their own country. Also, some Africans feel they are the TRUE blacks, and see American blacks as inferior. Well...they hashed it out, and ended up being cool. But it was a little taste of what plays out on a larger scale in this country regarding immigrants and native blacks. The immigrant DOES see the opportunity, because it's much better here than where they came from. They're less concerned about matters of equality. However, if you're born here, your perspective is different.

I wouldn't say that blacks here are anxious to live next to whites. It's a matter of being able to live wherever you want, and not have realtors steer you towards certain neighborhoods with certain types of people when you asked to see a house in THAT neighborhood. It's one thing to choose to self-segregate (which whites have always done. If the complexion of the neighborhood starts to change, they leave for a neighborhood that they're sure will stay white), but it's another to be forced to stay in a segregated neighborhood. America is a combination of self and imposed segregation. New York is just a series of ethnic neighborhoods, there are very few multi-ethnic neighborhoods that include whites.

Post: #46