In the UK gypsies beg mainly and do low level scams


The ethnic Romanians do armed robberies and burglaries and all the cash point and banking fraud. Even without the gypsies they commit a very high level of crime, whereas gypsies are more anti social

In the 90´s we got a number of romanian gypsies that got as "political reffuges". They all got into begging and small time crimes. I think the most disgusting thing they do was "renting" their infant sons to other gypsies to beg, and to keep the little kids quiet, they got the kid drunk with wine.

I'm not going to invest a lot of time defending Roma because this is a topic I know very little about but some people talk about them as if they're sub-human in a way I find a little disturbing.

You might not change your mind about a whole diasporic ethnicity on the basis of one person being nice but this Roma bloke seems like a decent guy, working abroad and living in very poor conditions to provide for his family. Skip to 3:37.

(07-05-2014 07:11 PM)Ethan Amarante Wrote:  I'm not going to invest a lot of time defending Roma because this is a topic I know very little about but some people talk about them as if they're sub-human in a way I find a little disturbing.

You might not change your mind about a whole diasporic ethnicity on the basis of one person being nice but this Roma bloke seems like a decent guy, working abroad and living in very poor conditions to provide for his family. Skip to 3:37.

You'll always have outliers out of any group. That's what most people can't wrap their minds around because they are used to labeling and categorizing general traits and using it as a given fact when it can deviate. However, the fact of the matter is that stereotypes do exist for a reason. It's because a majority faction has exhibited certain traits or tendencies enough for it to be noticed by both partial and impartial observers.

Another perception bias is anecodotal evidence. Just because someone has never witnessed certain things happening doesn't mean they haven't happened before or aren't prevalent.

What I can´t wrap my head around, even if I was that guy living under the bridge, I would spend the first hour throwing away all the junk that is there, making it a little nicer for my self. It just seems like Romas don´t care about sleeping in garbage. And one thing is sure, that guy was a lier. No pickpocketing among Romas? Come on..

Romas been given free governmental housing back in Romania, in Norway. And so far the outcome is always the same. In a very short time period the place start to look like shit. In norway they even stole the floor before they left.

There is a folk-story they tell Romani kids, and thats that there once was a little boy steeling a nail that was supposed to be nailed through jesus heart making him survive. For this God granted all Romas with the gift of stealing without sin.

(07-06-2014 05:42 AM)El Chinito loco Wrote:  

(07-05-2014 07:11 PM)Ethan Amarante Wrote:  I'm not going to invest a lot of time defending Roma because this is a topic I know very little about but some people talk about them as if they're sub-human in a way I find a little disturbing.

You might not change your mind about a whole diasporic ethnicity on the basis of one person being nice but this Roma bloke seems like a decent guy, working abroad and living in very poor conditions to provide for his family. Skip to 3:37.

You'll always have outliers out of any group. That's what most people can't wrap their minds around because they are used to labeling and categorizing general traits and using it as a given fact when it can deviate. However, the fact of the matter is that stereotypes do exist for a reason. It's because a majority faction has exhibited certain traits or tendencies enough for it to be noticed by both partial and impartial observers.

Another perception bias is anecodotal evidence. Just because someone has never witnessed certain things happening doesn't mean they haven't happened before or aren't prevalent.

I must not have made myself as clear as I should have. I did acknowledge that my lack of experience with Roma and a distinct lack of understanding in terms of the history makes me a poor person to offer any useful insight.

One point I was trying to make, however, was that, as you note, you shouldn't treat a group as homogenous - even if you believe that most Roma aren't particularly worthy of admiration, it's a mistake to paint every person within a very large, hetrogenous group with the same broad brush.

It's also interesting that you mention the fallaciousness of drawing conclusions from anecdotes - that does seem to be what most people are doing with regards to Roma on this thread. I don't think this is a particularly strong point, but it's worth considering.

Lastly, although there may very well be a higher incidence in terms of criminality within Roma communities, do bear in mind that this may be in part due to the intense poverty they live with and negative stereotypes of Roma. There's an interesting theory in criminology called 'labeling theory' which makes the case that a group or individual will begin to live up to a deviant (e.g. criminal) label if they have a reputation for being deviant. I'm not particularly well-versed in criminology and can't speak for labeling theory's efficacy in explaining individual or group actions, but there might be something to it and that might be something worth thinking about.

(07-06-2014 07:03 AM)pants Wrote:  There is a folk-story they tell Romani kids, and thats that there once was a little boy steeling a nail that was supposed to be nailed through jesus heart making him survive. For this God granted all Romas with the gift of stealing without sin.

If this is true then

http://redroom.com/member/suellen-ocean/...ixion-nail

Quote:The Gypsies were skilled Blacksmiths and there's a legend that goes along with that part of their history. The story is that a Gypsy made the four nails for the Cross of Jesus. But the Gypsy Blacksmith stole one of the nails. The story continues that God then granted this Gypsy's descendants the right to steal when they needed too. Paintings of the Crucifixion began showing three nails instead of four at about the same time period Gypsies arrived in Europe.

Not the best source. But form all the stories I have heard about gypsies, it really wouldn't surprise me.

Even reddit that is often balanced in their views, its hard to find anything positive about gypsies. Its a bad culture that needs some cleaning up.

http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/commen..._much_are/

Some of those documentaries make me fuckin angry. I cant believe that Europeans have become such pussies.... Americans aren't far behind. Just wait though, When times get rough in Europe, and they will, people will wake up.

Found this study about intelligence among Romas. They are obviously challenged.

Quote:This is the first study of which we are aware to provide a comprehensive estimate of the IQ of an adult Roma. We found an IQ of 70 on both the Raven's Standard and the Raven's Colored Progressive Matrices, as well as on four “executive function” tests. The Roma sample was large (N = 323) and the results held up over a two year test period, for both younger and older age groups, for both sexes, across three communities in- cluding Drenovac where the Roma speak the majority language and are adapted to Serbian cultural norms, as well as across several comparison groups such as Ser- bian preschoolers, White, Indian, Colored, and Black South African high school students, and Black South African undergraduates.

And after reading it some of my anger toward this group diminished, because its hard to be that angry at idiots. I´m just really unsure how we are gonna integrate this group into society. Seriously, how are we? Giving them free higher education might be worth a try, but if they average an IQ of 70. I think its pretty safe to say these won't be the leaders of society anytime soon. What other options are there? Think institutions agains child abuse should watch this group very carefully, as many of them force their children to go stealing.

(07-06-2014 01:49 PM)pants Wrote:  Found this study about intelligence among Romas. They are obviously challenged.

Quote:This is the first study of which we are aware to provide a comprehensive estimate of the IQ of an adult Roma. We found an IQ of 70 on both the Raven's Standard and the Raven's Colored Progressive Matrices, as well as on four “executive function” tests. The Roma sample was large (N = 323) and the results held up over a two year test period, for both younger and older age groups, for both sexes, across three communities in- cluding Drenovac where the Roma speak the majority language and are adapted to Serbian cultural norms, as well as across several comparison groups such as Ser- bian preschoolers, White, Indian, Colored, and Black South African high school students, and Black South African undergraduates.

And after reading it some of my anger toward this group diminished, because its hard to be that angry at idiots. I´m just really unsure how we are gonna integrate this group into society. Seriously, how are we? Giving them free higher education might be worth a try, but if they average an IQ of 70. I think its pretty safe to say these won't be the leaders of society anytime soon. What other options are there? Think institutions agains child abuse should watch this group very carefully, as many of them force their children to go stealing.

I don't have enough time to look into that source right now but I will later. Anyway, members of a racial group having a low IQ isn't necessarily indicative of an innate difference in intelligence between that group and the general population - children who've grown up in poverty have a significantly lower IQ, everything else taken into account. Presumably this has a lot to do with material and educational deprivation.

Imagine two identical twins are brought up in two houses, one a typical upper-middle class household and the other adopted by Roma. You have every reason to expect a huge difference in IQ by the time they're adults.

Yes, the study highlights this issue.

Quote:Roma children grow up in culturally disadvantaged conditions, often live in overcrowded homes, and are not as exposed to the intellectual stimulation and test taking attitudes typically associated with high test scores. There is also much evidence that a sub-optimal level of nutrition has an adverse effect on general intelligence. Another possibility too is that the higher scoring Roma have moved elsewhere in Europe — many of the individuals in the Mirijevo community reported having relatives in Germany.

I hope culture have a huge effect on learning capabilities. I just find it hard to imagine 62% of Roma children have to attend special institution schools for learning compared to only 4% of the general population.

Quote:Bakalar also found that Gypsy educational achievement was commensurate, with 62% of Roma children attending special education schools in comparison to 4% of the general population.

(07-06-2014 06:30 PM)pants Wrote:  Yes, the study highlights this issue.

Quote:Roma children grow up in culturally disadvantaged conditions, often live in overcrowded homes, and are not as exposed to the intellectual stimulation and test taking attitudes typically associated with high test scores. There is also much evidence that a sub-optimal level of nutrition has an adverse effect on general intelligence. Another possibility too is that the higher scoring Roma have moved elsewhere in Europe — many of the individuals in the Mirijevo community reported having relatives in Germany.

So wouldn't it be a good idea to change the circumstances which led to such deprivation?

(07-06-2014 07:28 PM)Ethan Amarante Wrote:  

(07-06-2014 06:30 PM)pants Wrote:  Yes, the study highlights this issue.

Quote:Roma children grow up in culturally disadvantaged conditions, often live in overcrowded homes, and are not as exposed to the intellectual stimulation and test taking attitudes typically associated with high test scores. There is also much evidence that a sub-optimal level of nutrition has an adverse effect on general intelligence. Another possibility too is that the higher scoring Roma have moved elsewhere in Europe — many of the individuals in the Mirijevo community reported having relatives in Germany.

So wouldn't it be a good idea to change the circumstances which led to such deprivation?

For two years I was volunteering in a non profit organization which worked with them two years. My experiences and what I learnt from them:

- They received free transport to school, free food at school, special activities designed to make them feel comfortable in schools like flamenco workshops and sometimes it was a condition to receive wellfare money from the government... and yet there were kids who would refuse to go to school and parents who didn't give a damn.

- Kids are very free and independent, there is no kind of discipline among the families so parents just let them grow feral. There are very basic codes of honour to be respected by gypsies: respect to their elderly (the only authority they accept) and the family; loyalty to their clan and things like girls should be virgins when they get married to keep the honour of the family (there is even a ceremony in which other women of the family break the hymen with a scarf and the blood is a sign of respect for the girl and her family).

- These kids, as any other kids, don't want to study or do any kind of homework. Also parents don't encourage an atmosphere of respect to the teachers and when teachers tell off kids for their bad behaviour it's common that they go to school and fight the teachers.

- They very red pill, and I respect that, they are aware since they're kids that nobody makes money working hard and they preffer to find other business, highly profitable and less demanding in time and personal effort. Many average taxpayer don't realise how things work till they're in their 50ies. Families forage in all sources available (doesn't matter if they're lega or not according to the non-gypsy laws): living on social welfare, petty theft, begging, drug dealing, music, flea markets... They have even been outsourcing, for example they hire blacks or arabs to sell their product so their hands are clean in case the cops catch them.

- They've priviledged relations with authorities. Their leaders will be received by any major or deputy without request. There is a tacit non agression agreement between the establishment and the gypsies. They receive free housing without any kind of liability while most people have to work their assess off to pay 30 year-long mortages and some of them get jobs as consultants. In return, in elections time, the gypsy vote goes straight to one party (in the area where I worked it was the socialist party, but in others it's conservative or whichever party pays better).

- They don't get involved in politics or support certain candidates and in return they receive millions of Euros from European, neational and regional social funds and they have special envoys in the European institutions. Gypsies always prey on the weak: working and middle class people, small and medium sized companies... for example during the real estate boom in Spain it was a non written rule that you had to hire gypsy security to protect the building from being looted by other gypsies.


- You'll never heard of (local) gypsies targeting the areas where the 1% live. And there have been well documented cases in which gypsy clans have colaborated with banks, politicians and speculators in a scheme that consisted in taking homeless junkies, dress them up, create a fake professional history, get a mortgage with the colaboration of the bank staff for an overpriced house or apartment they distribute the money and let it fall, subprime anybody?

All the wishful thinking of the world won't change the fact that you can't help who doesn't want to be helped and that you cannot force a free people who don't accept the rules to play by the book.

Quote:They very red pill, and I respect that, they are aware since they're kids that nobody makes money working hard and they preffer to find other business, highly profitable and less demanding in time and personal effort. Many average taxpayer don't realise how things work till they're in their 50ies. Families forage in all sources available (doesn't matter if they're lega or not according to the non-gypsy laws): living on social welfare, petty theft, begging, drug dealing, music, flea markets... They have even been outsourcing, for example they hire blacks or arabs to sell their product so their hands are clean in case the cops catch them.

Interesting read Ethan, would actually like to work with this group to really see if they are as bad as most people describes them as, its just hard to imagine, and it would be nice to see for myself.

However, I don´t agree on them being "red-pill" about hard work does not pay off, and I would not give them any credibility for finding alternatives ways of making money (stealing, offering poor manual labour, scamming tourists).

(07-07-2014 07:10 AM)Don Juan Tenorio Wrote:  

(07-06-2014 07:28 PM)Ethan Amarante Wrote:  

(07-06-2014 06:30 PM)pants Wrote:  Yes, the study highlights this issue.

Quote:Roma children grow up in culturally disadvantaged conditions, often live in overcrowded homes, and are not as exposed to the intellectual stimulation and test taking attitudes typically associated with high test scores. There is also much evidence that a sub-optimal level of nutrition has an adverse effect on general intelligence. Another possibility too is that the higher scoring Roma have moved elsewhere in Europe — many of the individuals in the Mirijevo community reported having relatives in Germany.

So wouldn't it be a good idea to change the circumstances which led to such deprivation?

For two years I was volunteering in a non profit organization which worked with them two years. My experiences and what I learnt from them:

- They received free transport to school, free food at school, special activities designed to make them feel comfortable in schools like flamenco workshops and sometimes it was a condition to receive wellfare money from the government... and yet there were kids who would refuse to go to school and parents who didn't give a damn.

- Kids are very free and independent, there is no kind of discipline among the families so parents just let them grow feral. There are very basic codes of honour to be respected by gypsies: respect to their elderly (the only authority they accept) and the family; loyalty to their clan and things like girls should be virgins when they get married to keep the honour of the family (there is even a ceremony in which other women of the family break the hymen with a scarf and the blood is a sign of respect for the girl and her family).

- These kids, as any other kids, don't want to study or do any kind of homework. Also parents don't encourage an atmosphere of respect to the teachers and when teachers tell off kids for their bad behaviour it's common that they go to school and fight the teachers.

- They very red pill, and I respect that, they are aware since they're kids that nobody makes money working hard and they preffer to find other business, highly profitable and less demanding in time and personal effort. Many average taxpayer don't realise how things work till they're in their 50ies. Families forage in all sources available (doesn't matter if they're lega or not according to the non-gypsy laws): living on social welfare, petty theft, begging, drug dealing, music, flea markets... They have even been outsourcing, for example they hire blacks or arabs to sell their product so their hands are clean in case the cops catch them.

- They've priviledged relations with authorities. Their leaders will be received by any major or deputy without request. There is a tacit non agression agreement between the establishment and the gypsies. They receive free housing without any kind of liability while most people have to work their assess off to pay 30 year-long mortages and some of them get jobs as consultants. In return, in elections time, the gypsy vote goes straight to one party (in the area where I worked it was the socialist party, but in others it's conservative or whichever party pays better).

- They don't get involved in politics or support certain candidates and in return they receive millions of Euros from European, neational and regional social funds and they have special envoys in the European institutions. Gypsies always prey on the weak: working and middle class people, small and medium sized companies... for example during the real estate boom in Spain it was a non written rule that you had to hire gypsy security to protect the building from being looted by other gypsies.


- You'll never heard of (local) gypsies targeting the areas where the 1% live. And there have been well documented cases in which gypsy clans have colaborated with banks, politicians and speculators in a scheme that consisted in taking homeless junkies, dress them up, create a fake professional history, get a mortgage with the colaboration of the bank staff for an overpriced house or apartment they distribute the money and let it fall, subprime anybody?

All the wishful thinking of the world won't change the fact that you can't help who doesn't want to be helped and that you cannot force a free people who don't accept the rules to play by the book.

I don't live in Europe but whenever I hear stories about the gypsies and their thievery, abuse of government programs etc. I think to myself....these people are the ultimate hustlers. If the world descended into chaos tomorrow the gypsies wouldn't miss a beat and would thrive in the lawlessness. I admire their callous disrespect of social conventions but am also happy they aren't in my city.

(07-07-2014 03:39 PM)Dr. Howard Wrote:  I don't live in Europe but whenever I hear stories about the gypsies and their thievery, abuse of government programs etc. I think to myself....these people are the ultimate hustlers. If the world descended into chaos tomorrow the gypsies wouldn't miss a beat and would thrive in the lawlessness. I admire their callous disrespect of social conventions but am also happy they aren't in my city.

The world has been in chaos many times. Why have these people not yet thrived? They thrive in Europe because they are protected. Let Europe go into chaos and I guarantee Europeans will man up real quick. All that passive BS would go away.

I've had bad experiences with the lot of them. Horrid pieces of worthless shit and worse than scum. This coming from an otherwise reasonable poster. If I hated any one group of people it would be the gypsies. Those who have never experienced them have no right to speak on them.

They have started to become a right blight up here in Stockholm. Now some gypsies have decided to set up shop right outside my apartment block. Any tips on how to get rid of them?

Why the fuck was Romania et al let into the EU?