Post: #51

What are the odds there are some professional criminals here one RVF? We got an all male, high testosterone, society criticizing group of men here, with many of them higher than average on the sociopath scale. Pretty good odds if you ask me.

Post: #52

(10-21-2013 01:38 PM)samsamsam Wrote:  I am not talking about petty burglary or assault or murder.

I watch the show American Greed sometimes and even then I guess it is just the lure of a quick wealth? Some do it out of desperation.

But there are some super smart guys that know it is a crime and have no problem going for big scores (i.e Ocean's 11 though it is a movie).

Just wondering about the psychology. My quick search on the internet didn't turn out anything except about people who do small time crime to survive.

Is it just the rush?

If any of you are actively involved in big scores, I advise starting the sentence with "A friend of mine..." lol

I am just really curious about the psychology.

Thanks.

Well in Britain, the answer is "why on Earth not"?

I'll tell you the story of a friend of mine.
Regarded as super talented throughout school, super high IQ and stuff. Tho' streetwise and funny, not a geek. But his school was crap. Spending per pupil was about 4k pa. Compared to 40k pa for the private school kids who get all the good jobs/become politicians, lawyers, top bankers etc. Anyway he actually got top marks throughout, despite the boredom and tortune of it. Although he was the victim of some anti-working class hatred by some university staff and one school head teacher.

He started applying for about 1000 jobs aftern university. Kept travelling to London for interviews, often 4 trips before being rejected for the job. The jobs kept going to someone with a contact at the firm, or an expensive private high school guy or girl (who usually gave the job up a few years later to run a silly jewellery/eco-smoothie shop or whatever) Applied for a huge number of shitty, non grad jobs too, in the hope of climbing up. Former head of grad recruitment at a big city bank said to him "I've gotta admit to you, we do all these interviews but most of the jobs are already lined up to the males and females from private schools, family contacts and back scratching deals. Your resume is great, but look for a shitty job, pretend to be bit shit, and come back and try in 6/7 yrs after an MBA, but even then its not easy". 2.5 years after graduating uni (top degree btw) he got a job putting shit on a factory conveyor belt and then something ubershit in a call centre, with all the attendant bullshit that entailed. He did that for 18months, being told "employers like people who are in work". Eventually he get sacked (for taking 2 days sick leave in 18months). Obtained a 3k loan to start a business (economists say a job typically costs 70k GBP to create) so really he was expected to create something out of nothing. Meanwhile his privately educated relative (who was really dim) was now a director at a bank in the City. Who wouldn't do him any favours because he was "working class". Oh and all his university friends ( nothing dazzling talentwise), from private high schools had been fixed up with good jobs years ago. His plan was to be a trading whiz but minimum personal account sizes back then were too high for him to even start something realistically.

Now this guy was never actually materialist. He just wanted to be successful and retire to set up charitable donations to poor people etc. The next step was that he got friendly with some guys who were "alleged" to be pretty big league criminals. I haven't spoken to him very recently, but I guess he's still in that World.

I don't think people outside Britain actually realise how rigid the so called "class strcture" is. The corridors of power are like S African apartheid. But instead of "no blacks", they might as well read "no proles or chavs". Sure working/lower mid class people DO succeed. But they are 90 odd percent of the population. The real top positions have vast numbers of the poshest private school kids.. or apparently "normal people" who's uncle was a director of the firm they get into etc. The working class kids who are sold the "go to a top uni bullshit" often get a shock when their law/business/economics degree gets them working in Starbucks 2/3/4 or even more years after graduation.

From what I gather, he was never about the "rush". There was none. He was about "addressing the injustice". Amazon, Starbucks and co are just tax dodgers. Royal Bank of Scotland etc are nothing but fraudsters. The old Etonians and the like aren't cleverer, or even better, they just had contacts who'd wangle the system for them. Trace many of these "newer money families" eg 2 or 3 generations back, or more and often there's a big fraud that got them there. Think the Kennedys in the USA and many more.

Where he lives, the local billionaire is secretly a huge fraudster. And the 2nd and 3rd richest (old money) are also huge crooks, one of which has family senior in the Conservative Party).

Looking at the above guy's experience, it would be surprising if he HADN'T become some sort of criminal.
The French call Brits the "marionettes" ie puppets. They can't believe the shit we take and the deference we show - I mean "bowing" to people etc. FFS.

Life can be dirty. Very dirty. He didn't want to be a "scumbag" or even dishonest. He wanted to get what he deserved, to get by. Then when he was denied he said "fuck it, maybe I should be be a Robin Hood". Thats the red pill reality. If you want to know more about his psychology, I'll try and answer from how he came over to me.

Post: #53

(05-18-2017 01:51 PM)BelyyTigr Wrote:  

(10-21-2013 01:38 PM)samsamsam Wrote:  I am not talking about petty burglary or assault or murder.

I watch the show American Greed sometimes and even then I guess it is just the lure of a quick wealth? Some do it out of desperation.

But there are some super smart guys that know it is a crime and have no problem going for big scores (i.e Ocean's 11 though it is a movie).

Just wondering about the psychology. My quick search on the internet didn't turn out anything except about people who do small time crime to survive.

Is it just the rush?

If any of you are actively involved in big scores, I advise starting the sentence with "A friend of mine..." lol

I am just really curious about the psychology.

Thanks.

Well in Britain, the answer is "why on Earth not"?

I'll tell you the story of a friend of mine.
Regarded as super talented throughout school, super high IQ and stuff. Tho' streetwise and funny, not a geek. But his school was crap. Spending per pupil was about 4k pa. Compared to 40k pa for the private school kids who get all the good jobs/become politicians, lawyers, top bankers etc. Anyway he actually got top marks throughout, despite the boredom and tortune of it. Although he was the victim of some anti-working class hatred by some university staff and one school head teacher.

He started applying for about 1000 jobs aftern university. Kept travelling to London for interviews, often 4 trips before being rejected for the job. The jobs kept going to someone with a contact at the firm, or an expensive private high school guy or girl (who usually gave the job up a few years later to run a silly jewellery/eco-smoothie shop or whatever) Applied for a huge number of shitty, non grad jobs too, in the hope of climbing up. Former head of grad recruitment at a big city bank said to him "I've gotta admit to you, we do all these interviews but most of the jobs are already lined up to the males and females from private schools, family contacts and back scratching deals. Your resume is great, but look for a shitty job, pretend to be bit shit, and come back and try in 6/7 yrs after an MBA, but even then its not easy". 2.5 years after graduating uni (top degree btw) he got a job putting shit on a factory conveyor belt and then something ubershit in a call centre, with all the attendant bullshit that entailed. He did that for 18months, being told "employers like people who are in work". Eventually he get sacked (for taking 2 days sick leave in 18months). Obtained a 3k loan to start a business (economists say a job typically costs 70k GBP to create) so really he was expected to create something out of nothing. Meanwhile his privately educated relative (who was really dim) was now a director at a bank in the City. Who wouldn't do him any favours because he was "working class". Oh and all his university friends ( nothing dazzling talentwise), from private high schools had been fixed up with good jobs years ago. His plan was to be a trading whiz but minimum personal account sizes back then were too high for him to even start something realistically.

Now this guy was never actually materialist. He just wanted to be successful and retire to set up charitable donations to poor people etc. The next step was that he got friendly with some guys who were "alleged" to be pretty big league criminals. I haven't spoken to him very recently, but I guess he's still in that World.

I don't think people outside Britain actually realise how rigid the so called "class strcture" is. The corridors of power are like S African apartheid. But instead of "no blacks", they might as well read "no proles or chavs". Sure working/lower mid class people DO succeed. But they are 90 odd percent of the population. The real top positions have vast numbers of the poshest private school kids.. or apparently "normal people" who's uncle was a director of the firm they get into etc. The working class kids who are sold the "go to a top uni bullshit" often get a shock when their law/business/economics degree gets them working in Starbucks 2/3/4 or even more years after graduation.

From what I gather, he was never about the "rush". There was none. He was about "addressing the injustice". Amazon, Starbucks and co are just tax dodgers. Royal Bank of Scotland etc are nothing but fraudsters. The old Etonians and the like aren't cleverer, or even better, they just had contacts who'd wangle the system for them. Trace many of these "newer money families" eg 2 or 3 generations back, or more and often there's a big fraud that got them there. Think the Kennedys in the USA and many more.

Where he lives, the local billionaire is secretly a huge fraudster. And the 2nd and 3rd richest (old money) are also huge crooks, one of which has family senior in the Conservative Party).

Looking at the above guy's experience, it would be surprising if he HADN'T become some sort of criminal.
The French call Brits the "marionettes" ie puppets. They can't believe the shit we take and the deference we show - I mean "bowing" to people etc. FFS.

Life can be dirty. Very dirty. He didn't want to be a "scumbag" or even dishonest. He wanted to get what he deserved, to get by. Then when he was denied he said "fuck it, maybe I should be be a Robin Hood". Thats the red pill reality. If you want to know more about his psychology, I'll try and answer from how he came over to me.

There's some truth to this. Privilege is entrenched. It does open doors, and create opportunities.

As someone born with it, it is problematic in its own ways - it is hard to imagine for anyone outside of a privileged upper middle class background just how constrained a life it can make for at times, though one shouldn't be ungrateful. It doesn't leave you free to make friends, love, or anything else quite as you'd choose. It is not that one can't simply ignore these constraints for a while, and build meaningful friendships or enjoy memorable romances with people outside this circle. Of course one can. But on a longer time line these things become more problematic - if one doesn't know the social graces class bestows a barrier is erected - your friends are not comfortable in the surroundings in which you are relaxed, girls, acutely social creatures that they are, are aware that they are being watched, judged, and loathed by the supposed 'social betters', and overall it makes for a thoroughly unrelaxed and strained experience.

Friends or lovers, with whom no previous obstacles presented, suddenly find themselves unavoidably aware that you are from another world to them. Once one has experienced a situation with a friend or girlfriend like this, irreparable harm is almost invariably done. It is sad that it should be so.

That said, as unpalatable as it is to hear, the private education system in this country (except those schools which are really more holding pens for the terminally stupid amongst the upper class) provide a level of all-round education which is incomparably better than anything all but the very best grammar schools can provide. The very best public (private) schools stand alone above anything else. With the fees, resources, and ability to select the best pupils, how could they not? Take a very bright child, and give him everything educationally he could wish for, and it doesn't matter how bright another boy who's been to a comprehensive is, there will be light years between them. This is part of the reason that the best jobs do tend to go to private school children - they really are streets ahead by the time it comes to apply for roles with major firms.

Post: #54

(05-18-2017 03:25 PM)H1N1 Wrote:  There's some truth to this. Privilege is entrenched. It does open doors, and create opportunities.

As someone born with it, it is problematic in its own ways - it is hard to imagine for anyone outside of a privileged upper middle class background just how constrained a life it can make for at times, though one shouldn't be ungrateful. It doesn't leave you free to make friends, love, or anything else quite as you'd choose. It is not that one can't simply ignore these constraints for a while, and build meaningful friendships or enjoy memorable romances with people outside this circle. Of course one can. But on a longer time line these things become more problematic - if one doesn't know the social graces class bestows a barrier is erected - your friends are not comfortable in the surroundings in which you are relaxed, girls, acutely social creatures that they are, are aware that they are being watched, judged, and loathed by the supposed 'social betters', and overall it makes for a thoroughly unrelaxed and strained experience.

Friends or lovers, with whom no previous obstacles presented, suddenly find themselves unavoidably aware that you are from another world to them. Once one has experienced a situation with a friend or girlfriend like this, irreparable harm is almost invariably done. It is sad that it should be so.

That said, as unpalatable as it is to hear, the private education system in this country (except those schools which are really more holding pens for the terminally stupid amongst the upper class) provide a level of all-round education which is incomparably better than anything all but the very best grammar schools can provide. The very best public (private) schools stand alone above anything else. With the fees, resources, and ability to select the best pupils, how could they not? Take a very bright child, and give him everything educationally he could wish for, and it doesn't matter how bright another boy who's been to a comprehensive is, there will be light years between them. This is part of the reason that the best jobs do tend to go to private school children - they really are streets ahead by the time it comes to apply for roles with major firms.

Well firstly all this "social graces" stuff is dying a death. Its an attempt by part of a particular tribe to try and reinforce its identity, close ranks against outsiders. I've seen ex Westminster/Marlborough types with rich new Russians in London.
The Russians positively laugh in their faces when told about "etiquette". But the ex private school boys are fawning over them, so much so you expect they'll need surgically removing from their behinds. Strangely, I don't remember this sort of behaviour towards scousers and cockneys at the Rothschilds graduate open day. They say "true class has no price". But its clear, "class" sells out.. when the price is right! And I've seen plenty of ex Rugby pupils etc who are anything BUT "gentlemen" - with anyone.

Private schools NEVER recruit the best pupils. Thats what makes them private! They recruit the kids of wealthy people, reagrdless of ability. Even scholarship kids are often complete plodders. What these schools do is specialise in getting talentless kids to get top grades when they would failed dismally at state schools. They also specialise in collusion, discrimination and corruption of the process they laughable pretend is meritocracy. Not just at 18 years but throughout people's whole lives. Its no different to having a sign on recruitment doors "no niggers, no proles". Infact, a black private school kid has an absolute doddle compared to a white state kid. This should be seen as what it is. The genuine "hate crime", fraud against wider society. They even brainwash their pupils to show loyalty to the tie, to the "tribe" no matter how harmful it might be to society. They try to defend it at all times, even if they are secretly ashamed of its dishonesty.

You say suggest class barriers are sad, but at the same time you try to defend class discrimination/hate/corruption.
And nothing stops you having friends/women from state backgrounds. When someone says "so and so is such a snob". I say "no his isn't, he's a coward who can't face open competition. He can't be honest that the state guy is more talented than him and someone in his gang".

Sorry but your final paragraph is nonsense, as I think you know full well. Its the smart state kids that are "streets ahead". They've managed to teach themselves, not benefit from £20k or £40k a year to get top grades in A levels. With my mate, it was raw genetic brain power. The product of a challenging environment, not everything spoon-fed or croneyism. I've overheard recruiters. "I'm not giving the job to a pleb, one more of them is one less of us. Fuck the proles". There's many comp kids who get first class degrees, top A levels, become gifted traders, or set up good businesses from scratch. Its a basic statistical inevitability there will be far more top talented state kids than private. But you can't seem to accept that. Even the Times, "bastion of the Establishment" accepts the "system" is diseased and perverse!

Parroting Pitt the Elder, talking in an accent descended from Norman invaders, playing cello or messing round on Operation Raleigh does NOT make you a better businessman, film producer or MP. And thats all a private school does beyond invalidating the exam system for those who throw 4 or 8x the money at it. Exam private schooling is like giving athletes steroids. Where would most of these kids be without "private school exam steroids"? Cleaning toilets, buggering round in call centres! Thats not light years ahead. They're light years behind in capability terms! Sorry but your comments there have no credibility. They are an attempt to promote your gang, your self defined "tribe", even though there is no defence for such a corrupted system.

Post: #55

(05-18-2017 11:33 AM)rottenapple Wrote:  What are the odds there are some professional criminals here one RVF? We got an all male, high testosterone, society criticizing group of men here, with many of them higher than average on the sociopath scale. Pretty good odds if you ask me.

You'll have to define "criminal."

Post: #56

(05-19-2017 03:40 AM)BelyyTigr Wrote:  Well firstly all this "social graces" stuff is dying a death. Its just an attempt by part of a particular tribe to try and reinforce its identity, close ranks against outsiders. I've seen ex Westminster/Marlborough types with rich new Russians in London.
The Russians positively laugh in their faces when told about "etiquette". But the ex private school boys are fawning over them, so much so you expect they'll need surgically removing from their behinds. Strangely, I don't remember this sort of behaviour towards scousers and cockneys at the Rothschilds graduate open day. They say "true class has no price". But its clear, "class" always sells out.. when the price is right! And I've seen plenty of ex Rugby pupils etc who are anything BUT "gentlemen" - with anyone.

Private schools NEVER recruit the best pupils. Thats what makes them private! They recruit the kids of wealthy people, reagrdless of ability. Even scholarship kids are often complete plodders. What these schools do is specialise in getting talentless kids to get top grades when they would failed dismally at state schools. They also specialise in collusion, discrimination and corruption of the process they laughable pretend is meritocracy. Not just at 18 years but throughout people's whole lives. Its no different to having a sign on recruitment doors "no niggers, no proles". Infact, a black private school kid has an absolute doddle compared to a white state kid. This should be seen as what it is. The genuine "hate crime", fraud against wider society. They even brainwash their pupils to show loyalty to the tie, to the "tribe" no matter how harmful it might be to society. They try to defend it at all times, even if they are secretly ashamed of its dishonesty.

You say suggest class barriers are sad, but at the same time you try to defend class discrimination/hate/corruption. When someone says "so and so is such a snob". I say "no his isn't, he's a coward who can't face open competition. He can't be honest that the state guy is more talented than him and his gang".

Sorry but your final paragraph is complete nonsense, as I think you know full well. Its the smart state kids that are "streets ahead". They've managed to teach themselves, not benefit from £20k or £40k a year to get top grades in A levels. With my mate, it was raw genetic brain power. The product of a challenging environment, not everything spoon-fed or croneyism. I've overheard recruiters. "I'm not giving the job to a pleb, one more of them is one less of us. Fuck the proles". There's many comp kids who get first class degrees, top A levels, become gifted traders, or set up good businesses from scratch. Its a basic statistical inevitability there will be far more top talented state kids than private. But you can't seem to accept that. Even the Times, "bastion of the Establishment" accepts the "system" is diseased and perverse!

Parroting Pitt the Elder, talking in an accent descended from Norman invaders, playing cello or messing round on Operation Raleigh does NOT make you a better businessman, film producer or MP. And thats all a private school does beyond invalidating the exam system for those who throw 4 or 8x the money at it. Exam private schooling is like giving athletes steroids. Where would most of these kids be without "private school exam steroids"? Cleaning toilets, buggering round in call centres! Thats not light years ahead. They're light years behind in capability terms! Sorry but your comments there have no credibility. They are an attempt to promote your gang, your self defined "tribe", even though you have no defence for it.

I don't think the social graces are dying a death. That may be your perception, but I can assure you - leaving aside whether it is right or wrong - that in the richest and most powerful circles the social graces are very much alive and kicking. Unless you've been brought up in it, you wouldn't necessarily be aware. But to give an example, I was at one of the most exclusive clubs in the world a few weeks ago, where royalty, aristocracy, old money, and some new money mix. Of 200 people or so, there was one person wearing a winged collar on his black tie, and it was not a stiff collar. Everyone in that room, I assure you, had the same thought over the course of the evening - this guy doesn't belong. Personally I don't mind if someone belongs or not, in many respects they are rather more interesting to me if they don't. But I can assure you that guy had no idea, he felt everyone was mixing on equal terms, but it was not the case. If you haven't grown up aware of the unwritten rules - the words that are the mark of the beast, the ways of dressing, the slightest social conventions (eg 'saying good to meet you' rather than 'how do you do') then you really have no idea just how far from being really thought of as part of the gang by those who hold the levers of power.

And of course they fawn over rich Russians when they are with them. This is how they extract money for their large and successful funds, and perpetuate their position at the top of the totem pole.

The top private schools do invariably recruit from amongst the best pupils. Of course there are thousands of brilliant children who miss out because of their backgrounds, and that is a very serious tragedy. Perhaps the single greatest loss to our country is the fact that we fail so many highly gifted children. You'll find no dispute with me there. The talent that is wasted is appalling to me. It's why I treasure and appreciate the gift I had and the sacrifices my parents made to give me a start they never had.

These schools do have enough money and license to give full bursaries to poor kids, and frequently do (about 10% of my school were on some kind of bursary). During the 5 years I was at my school, over the course of about 1300 boys, the lowest IQ recorded during pre-entrance testing was 127 - about 2 SDs above average. Almost every teacher at my school had a PhD from Oxbridge. Class sizes were about 8 boys. Even amongst private schools mine was anomalous, I'll happily admit - though Eton and one or two others have a similar luxury. You cannot seriously tell me that you think that a school that is able to recruit highly gifted children, which some not insignificant percentage of rich children are, give them the best education money can buy, and that somehow some other very bright child with none of those advantages could hope to compete. Of course, a great many squander the opportunity - again no argument from me there. But the very bright children that take full advantage of an extraordinary education ARE a long way ahead of everyone else.

From amongst our ex-scholars at my school alone we have several nobel prizes for physics and chemistry, more fields medals than you can count, and a range of academic accolades, discoveries and accomplishments that would frankly make your eyes bleed (as they do mine!). I can assure you that most scholars at these places are the furthest things from plodders you could possibly imagine. They are frighteningly gifted, and supremely educated.

I think, as nonsense final paragraphs go, yours may well trump mine. I've not sought to 'defend my gang'; in many respects I have done the opposite and shone a light on the less lovely, and less meritocratic aspects of it. What I have pointed out is the self evident truth that if you take a highly gifted child, which, sorry to burst your bubble, many wealthy children are, and then give them every advantage of education that money can buy, then you put that child in a far superior position to even the brightest state children. You say the brightest state children are streets ahead because they've taught themselves - that is obviously nonsense. However bright the child, they are limited by access to resources, experience, and understanding as to what they can teach themselves (leaving aside something like maths where one may simply have the knack). It is clearly preferable to have a wise, experienced, and highly intelligent adult directing the attentions of a precociously gifted child. That child will be exposed to more, more appropriately and with greater alacrity of understanding, given supreme teachers. This is self-evident, and to deny it as a fact is silly.

Post: #57

A lot of criminals aren't actively conscious of the fact that they're monsters. I always liked the question, "do evil people think they're evil?"

It sheds some light on this question for me. Sociopaths are often convinced that they have it right and the rest of the world has it wrong. Their vision of the world is the only vision they are capable of truly seeing in their minds. Your feelings, your ideas, your life is simply something they cannot fathom. Empathy is either severely absent or, in some cases, totally absent in these people.

When you factor all these things in and add high IQ to the mix, you end up with a dangerous person who will do anything they want to achieve their goals. This is admirable at some level since many people wish they could go that far, but it can be deeply deleterious to those around them. You see this in the government all the time. Look at the way Colin Powell got played way back when. Classic sociopathic manipulation of a good man.

Simply put, these people are monsters who cannot look in the mirror. I used to believe in the whole "they came from tough circumstances and they did what they had to," but honestly a normal person coming out of tough circumstances usually doesn't descend into deep criminality. It takes a certain level of trauma and damage to be ok with committing deeply criminal acts: violence, extortion, murder, theft and a slew of other acts.

I think the best thing we can do is recognize that smart people who descend into criminality are often not "normal." Of course, by virtue of being intelligent, they're abnormal, but they're on a whole new level of deviance that is hard to comprehend. Their male hamsters are legendary.

Ever watched a video of a sociopath explaining what he did. He will often use the third-person or totally wriggle out of explaining what they did. It's very interesting.

Post: #58

Quote:I don't think the social graces are dying a death. That may be your perception, but I can assure you - leaving aside whether it is right or wrong - that in the richest and most powerful circles the social graces are very much alive and kicking. Unless you've been brought up in it, you wouldn't necessarily be aware. But to give an example, I was at one of the most exclusive clubs in the world a few weeks ago, where royalty, aristocracy, old money, and some new money mix. Of 200 people or so, there was one person wearing a winged collar on his black tie, and it was not a stiff collar. Everyone in that room, I assure you, had the same thought over the course of the evening - this guy doesn't belong. Personally I don't mind if someone belongs or not, in many respects they are rather more interesting to me if they don't. But I can assure you that guy had no idea, he felt everyone was mixing on equal terms, but it was not the case. If you haven't grown up aware of the unwritten rules - the words that are the mark of the beast, the ways of dressing, the slightest social conventions (eg 'saying good to meet you' rather than 'how do you do') then you really have no idea just how far from being really thought of as part of the gang by those who hold the levers of power.

And of course they fawn over rich Russians when they are with them. This is how they extract money for their large and successful funds, and perpetuate their position at the top of the totem pole.

The top private schools do invariably recruit from amongst the best pupils. Of course there are thousands of brilliant children who miss out because of their backgrounds, and that is a very serious tragedy. Perhaps the single greatest loss to our country is the fact that we fail so many highly gifted children. You'll find no dispute with me there. The talent that is wasted is appalling to me. It's why I treasure and appreciate the gift I had and the sacrifices my parents made to give me a start they never had.

These schools do have enough money and license to give full bursaries to poor kids, and frequently do (about 10% of my school were on some kind of bursary). During the 5 years I was at my school, over the course of about 1300 boys, the lowest IQ recorded during pre-entrance testing was 127 - about 2 SDs above average. Almost every teacher at my school had a PhD from Oxbridge. Class sizes were about 8 boys. Even amongst private schools mine was anomalous, I'll happily admit - though Eton and one or two others have a similar luxury. You cannot seriously tell me that you think that a school that is able to recruit highly gifted children, which some not insignificant percentage of rich children are, give them the best education money can buy, and that somehow some other very bright child with none of those advantages could hope to compete. Of course, a great many squander the opportunity - again no argument from me there. But the very bright children that take full advantage of an extraordinary education ARE a long way ahead of everyone else.

From amongst our ex-scholars at my school alone we have several nobel prizes for physics and chemistry, more fields medals than you can count, and a range of academic accolades, discoveries and accomplishments that would frankly make your eyes bleed (as they do mine!). I can assure you that most scholars at these places are the furthest things from plodders you could possibly imagine. They are frighteningly gifted, and supremely educated.

I think, as nonsense final paragraphs go, yours may well trump mine. I've not sought to 'defend my gang'; in many respects I have done the opposite and shone a light on the less lovely, and less meritocratic aspects of it. What I have pointed out is the self evident truth that if you take a highly gifted child, which, sorry to burst your bubble, many wealthy children are, and then give them every advantage of education that money can buy, then you put that child in a far superior position to even the brightest state children. You say the brightest state children are streets ahead because they've taught themselves - that is obviously nonsense. However bright the child, they are limited by access to resources, experience, and understanding as to what they can teach themselves (leaving aside something like maths where one may simply have the knack). It is clearly preferable to have a wise, experienced, and highly intelligent adult directing the attentions of a precociously gifted child. That child will be exposed to more, more appropriately and with greater alacrity of understanding, given supreme teachers. This is self-evident, and to deny it as a fact is silly.

Well you might like to portray me as a "chav" who spends all day in the snooker hall, dressed out in fake Burberry. But sorry to disappoint you but grandparents on one side of my family were from a titled European banking dynasty.The other regularly entertained royalty. My parents regularly tried to harrass me with "etiquette", "proper diction" and tried to get me playing classical instruments at a so called "good" (ie private boarders) school etc. From an early age my response was the same with them as it was to my grandparents saying "would you like to meet Prince XXXX?". It was "nope, I'd rather eat my own shit". I found the class "system" all a bit creepy - cowardly and all the endemic stories of homosexuality amongst boarders. So I went to a comp and don't give a fuck how someone finds my working class accent. Anyway, I digress.

Ofcourse some debutante's ball type affair will have tiresome, inane "customs". Its what binds these groups together. Because it isn't innovation or talent. Its part of their way of filtering out those "disloyal" to their culture of robotlike "unapologetic corruption".But it doesn't stop making it cowardly, dishonest and pathetic though. They're just posh fishwives or Hyacinth Buckets. Everyone else laughs at them.Including much of the new global shakers -many of whom are very much against large inheritances etc!

Its not just the Russians that are fawned over. The world needs technical/creative skills to control or influence things these days. Its not like Game of Thrones where you can show a medallion and say "I am House Tyrell" and all the peasants will bow down. Some old Etonians may seek solace in thinking their mannerisms, network and tie make them bulletproof against competition or the laws of evolution. They don't.

10% isn't "frequently" is it? About 94% of British kids went to state schools. Yet they're about zero percent of senior judges (etc etc). And over 99% didn't go to the old Clarendon group. And its not even the minor public schools that are corrupting the corridors of power. The bursary thing is a lame pr stunt that doesn't fool anyone as to the perversion of class based corruption.

No one denies there are some smart kids at private schools, but private schools per se, are a tiny part of the population. 127 is a very average IQ for say, average courses at Oxbridge. And I don't believe the validity of your school's claim for a moment. Nor, I think would Madsen Pirie given his views on IQ dispersion.

We need to get to what you really mean by "a long way ahead". Ofcourse a smart private school kid having his A levels, degree and first job offers put on a plate is a "long way ahead" in terms of ease of getting there! But he's certainly not "a long way ahead" in terms of capability. Infact he has proven himself far less. And that is before the basic statistical facts that supergifted are more likely to come from state schools because there are vastly more state kids! Thats why your claim has no credibility, only bias.

Lots of private schools can boast this that and the other. Why? Because up until recent times nearly every prestige field was overwhelmingly dominated by a tiny proportion of people from the most expensive private schools. Working class kids left school at 14 or so. Middle class kids may have got into grammar schools post war. But they still experienced hate from private school power brokers. Its like boasting about being a sprint champion in S Africa when blacks were banned! They shouldn't be proud, they should be ashamed of building a system that prevented generations of gifted would-be scientists and the like from ever even getting into their fields! Its not THAT different today. And Nobels etc are often just lobbying and tribalism. You think Obama deserved his peace prize btw?

I go back to your statement in your previous post. The jobs are given to privates due to a form of corruption, NOT ability. Not even "have you jumped through the hoops". Because the state kids jump through all the hoops til they're fucked off by JP Morgan and the rest's recruitment dept. There's enough smart or "hyper smart" state kids coming out of good or elite universities to be awarded them in a 92-8 ratio. Thats the ratio of state to private. Yet we see corridors of power with 10 or even 5% state educated, or less!

You shoot yourself in the foot admitting maths is about pure ability at the top end. Its the same with programmers, traders, muscians, writers and basically everything else. Other than "how to spend dad's trust fund, be a head of state, or identify a Bollinger 88." And as you know full well "alacrity of understanding" is pure meaningless public school waffle.You are in denial about the basic statistical facts of it all. Sorry but your claim is comical. Pure tribalism again, a fantasy world.

Anyway, the main topic was asking why do the supergifted become criminals. I mentioned this as its relevant to a friend who had enough of the bullshit. I don't think you're saying "people become criminals because they have to compete with state kids"! I've made one reply, you've made two. So I think we save this for another thread? : )

Post: #59

WALL STREET. That is your answer.

Post: #60

[quote='BelyyTigr' pid='1574336' dateline='1495209720']

Quote:So I think we save this for another thread? : )

This would be a great thread, please make this. I've actually really enjoyed reading the debate between you two.

We could try to make a real 'red pill' on all the weird class stuff in the UK, like why rich people have cold houses and won't eat mushy peas, etc.

Post: #61

^Yeah that discussion was really good and I have to say I mostly agree with Bellytigre.

I am not against elitism per se, but according to H1N1s account these people seem somewhat cowardly in that though they give themselves so many benefits they are not seen to be actively working for the greater good of the society.

I used to work in an Investment Bank (IT department) and met a lot privately educated people from other departments. They may have been slightly smarter than us plebs but what really set them apart was presentation.

Thing is, its all good having all these top expensive schools and telling yourselves how great you guys are, but I'm just not seeing any real value coming out of it.

Post: #62

(05-21-2017 11:32 AM)Surreyman Wrote:  [quote='BelyyTigr' pid='1574336' dateline='1495209720']

Quote:So I think we save this for another thread? : )

This would be a great thread, please make this. I've actually really enjoyed reading the debate between you two.

We could try to make a real 'red pill' on all the weird class stuff in the UK, like why rich people have cold houses and won't eat mushy peas, etc.

Sure, I'll set one up. Or someone else can before I do. I'm not sure whether it should be in "Everything Else" or Politics.
I'll be able to contribute on the weekend. Or maybe before.

To me, the topic isn't just relevant to crime and stuff. I think it should be part of "Red Pill" culture in general. After all, isn't red pill about questioning what Establishment groups want us to believe?!

Post: #63

Forget where I read/heard it (Jordan Peterson maybe?), but higher IQ people find it easier to justify their actions.

Post: #64

(05-23-2017 01:37 PM)Sombro Wrote:  Forget where I read/heard it (Jordan Peterson maybe?), but higher IQ people find it easier to justify their actions.

Well crossing paths with criminals (either in law, or business) I found there were numerous explanations:-
1)They experienced a trauma and decided to live life in the moment eg after the death of a parent or young wife/child.
2)They found gambling ie risk taking was the only thing that ever got them results.
3)They were bullied/mistreated when younger and saw it as taking control of their lives again.
4)response to some injustice - class discrimination or a duplicitous childhood love.
5)a belief that actions not thoughts are the only thing that works.
6)a sense of entitlement - one guy considered people to be idiots and was adamant that if he got caught, his family would get him off the hook. (Richard Branson is also like this - did a large VAT ie sales tax fraud to get up and running and judges in his family meant he was never looking at a jail sentence).
7)Psychopathy.
8) A Robin Hood character or politically/morally motivated criminal.
9)"The perfect storm" - the right mix of people coming together at the right time.
Or a family tradition of criminality.