Post: #51

(10-16-2013 08:54 AM)MikeCF Wrote:  GH can heal chronic injuries. It takes mega doses to get muscle gains and is a waste of money for the average guy if that's the goal.

GH + test/tren = potentiate the test/tren.

GH can get expensive. Riptropin (there were some legit kits going around) is $2.90 per iu. At 2 ius per day, it adds up.

Pharm grade is $12-18/iu.

But 2 ius (even of the Chinese stuff, if you find good Chinese stuff) will heal up a lot of chronic injuries and get rid of aches and pains from a lifetime of athletics.

The huge problem is with fakes. Even guys who have a "source" are careful not to give it out because....Even if the last batch bought was good, it doesn't mean that the new batch will be.

China can fake everything. They can do boxes with serial numbers, set up websits to authenticate the product (i.e., "Go here to make sure you have legit Kintropin," when it's really just a "legit fake.")

But you can go to eroids to read reviews of vendors. Then find a reputable vendor and do what everyone does....Place your order and hope for the best.

Just keep in mind that many of those reviews as biased, written by sock puppets, etc. IOW, use the same skepticism you'd read here when guys claim they have 100+ notches.

Not everyone is lying...But we humans have a tendency to exaggerate and to believe what we want to believe - truth be damned.

Nice good info thanks. My boy said it would run me at least $400 a month. I don't have any nagging injuries luckily even though I've been injured a lot. Egoscue really helped my injuries believe it or not.

Honesty I don't want anything from china.

Maybe doctor prescribed trt is best for now and I can worry about hgh when I'm older and have more money.

Post: #52

(10-15-2013 02:17 PM)PUA_Rachacha Wrote:  I was taking 7,000iu of Vitamin D per day, and only could get up my levels to 27. As I said, I just got blood work done again, and if my Vitamin D level is still below 30 even after supplementing 7,000iu per day, then I'm going to bump it up to 12,000iu per day.

Your Vitamin D level should be above 50 in order to start gaining the full benefits. If I were you I'd take a Vitamin D test again in a month, and if it hasn't moved above 50, then I'd bump up the dosage.

Remember that VitD is a fat-soluble vitamin. If you take it with your main (fatty) meal, it will be absorbed better than if you took it on an empty stomach.

Also make sure you get plenty of magnesium, as it interacts with vitD and affects the blood levels of it.

http://blog.vitamindcouncil.org/2012/10/...bsorption/

Post: #53

(10-11-2013 11:16 AM)Spider Wrote:  Are T injections far superior to patches and gels?

The problems with gels include:
a) can transfer to other (i.e. girls, kids, etc.) that you come into physical contact with
b) uptake is very variable
c) it is subject to a much higher level of transformation to estrogen (i.e. aromatization) [note: elevated estrogen levels can lead to several side effects including gynecomastia, irritability, others.]

Advantages of gels:
a) once your dose is dialed in, it provides better steady state T levels as it is dosed daily
b) ease of use (i.e. you don't need to inject anything under your skin or into any muscle)
c) thanks to marketing of gel products a lot of doctors are more familiar (and probably more willing) to Rx T-gel than they were before (whereas some docs might still hesitate writing you an Rx for something injectable)

Post: #54

(10-13-2013 11:38 AM)MikeCF Wrote:  Some guys bloat on cyp. For them, prop is better. Despite Internet chatter, most guys are just fine pinning prop 2x week.

Prop can have more PIP (pain at injection point). Other guys don't have any issues with PIP.

Cyp means an inject every 5 days or so. So cyp is fewer injects but can bloat. Prop is more injects and maybe some PIP but might not bloat.

Most docs don't know the difference between cyp and prop and will only rx cyp. If you educate your doctor (or go to one who actually know what he's doing), he can write you a script for prop. There are compounding pharmacies that will make your prop and mail it to you.

Generic cyp is like $65 at Costco. Prop is gonna cost more, though not that much more.

A third ester is Enanthate. I believe it has a similar onset/duration of action as cypionate; but reportedly less bloat associated with it. Supposedly, from most accounts, it also does not cause the level of PIP that propionate does.

Any thoughts on this ester Mike? Perhaps it is the preferable of the 3?
Also read that it is more commonly used in Europe (but that was anecdotal.)

Post: #55

(10-13-2013 04:38 PM)MidniteSpecial Wrote:  Thank you for this info. Appreciate it a lot. I will be 30 in a year and really want to start knowing this stuff because I honestly don't know to much right now. Any good links you can send me to where I can get my study on.

I found the T replacement forum at T Nation to be useful.
All Things Male is a forum run by an HRT doc named Dr. Crisler. There are some helpful guys over there as well.

At the very least, reading thru the stickies can give you good info regarding pharmacology, labs, side effects, searching for docs, etc..

Post: #56

(10-15-2013 02:17 PM)PUA_Rachacha Wrote:  

(10-13-2013 06:10 PM)sthesia Wrote:  Hoping to get some feedback on some T related changes I am considering instituting.

Supplements


-Start Iodoral 12.5mg once daily (5mg Iodine + 7.5 mg Potassium Iodide)
My TSH level was 3.74 [0.5-4.5]; free T3 and free T4 levels were within normal range. More recent thinking suggests that TSH >3 is suggestive of hypothyroidism. My thought is that Iodine supplementation may help.

Eagerly await thoughts regarding my plans for Supplements and Testosterone.

Bro, be careful with iodine supplementation, it's very powerful.

I supplemented on Iodoral for a year. At first things were fine, and I noticed my hair thickening.

Then it all went to shit.

I would get depressed easily, cold all the time, constipation, etc.

Doctor checked my TSH levels twice over eight months, both times very elevated (over 6).

While not confirming, doctor guessed that I have Hashimoto's disease. Apparently supplementing with iodine increases the immune system's attack on the thyroid gland, i.e., it's akin to dousing a fire with gasoline. I just got my TSH levels checked again (along with test levels) and will be going on Armour if my TSH is still out of whack.

While YMMV, supplementing with iodine may cause lasting damage to your thyroid. I'd therefore stop supplementing if I were you. If you think something's up with your thyroid, go to a naturopath who is more likely willing to run a full thyroid panel and put you on Armour if something's amiss. Iodine supplementation could at best help a little and at worst permanently damage your thyroid.

Appreciate the advice re: Iodine supp. I've since done a ton more reading on the topic and it seems like Iodine supp is actually quite tricky. It can really take you anywhere along the spectrum from hypothyroid to hyperthyroid.

FWIW, my recent Thyroid labs were:
TSH 3.74 [0.45-4.5]
Total T3 113 [71-180]
Free T3 3.1 [2.0-4.4]
Free T4 1.16 [0.82-1.77]
Reverse T3 12.0 [9.2-24.1]
TPO Antibody 23 [0-34]

I am guessing that the best thing to do would probably test myself on some sort of Iodine assay. I believe a 24hr urine collection to test for iodine excretion was something I read as being the diagnostic test of choice for determining whether your iodine intake is optimal.

I am shelving my recently bought Iodoral for now.

Post: #57

(10-16-2013 02:25 PM)Acute Angle Wrote:  Remember that VitD is a fat-soluble vitamin. If you take it with your main (fatty) meal, it will be absorbed better than if you took it on an empty stomach.

Wanted to echo this sentiment and add that Vitamins A, E, and K are also fat-soluble for those of you that are supplementing those as well.

Post: #58

(10-14-2013 09:45 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

(10-13-2013 06:10 PM)sthesia Wrote:  Total Testosterone 504 [348-1197]
Free Testosterone 16.1 [8.7-25.1]

My question would be why you think you need TRT with those numbers.

Not judging, but above 500 is still pretty good. (Obviously 1100 feels MUCH better.)

If you're willing to make the commitment with a doc, cool. 500 is the "cut off" for a lot of anti-aging clinics so it's not like 500 isn't low enough

As your question suggests ... I am very much on the fence with the decision to start TRT with my numbers.

The part of me that wants to start is the part of me that wants to be operating on all aspects of life at my optimal. Whether that be personally, professionally, in the gym, in the sack, style-wise. I am simply trying to improve all aspects of life to the max.

Now I obviously, don't want to do anything detrimental to my health ... which is part of the reason for my originally posting to get some feedback. If I'm not going to appreciate that much of a difference from going on TRT with my current numbers, then the incremental work for benefit gained is probably not worth it.

The doc I met with is very flexible in allowing me to design my own protocol. His go-to protocol (for TRT) for some reason involves a "cycle" of 10 weeks on TRT then 2 weeks off (with hCG and clomid, I believe.) I am guessing he likes it this way so as to get an interval re-start of the gonadal system I am assuming.

Maybe I should try one of these 12 week cycles with him and see where to go from there? If it doesn't really seem to have much benefit, then I stay off Test ... until my endogenous levels drop off much lower than the 500 they are currently at.

Or I could design my own protocol with him to try for 8-10 weeks.
Or I just keep my head down and continue doing what I'm doing and look into this stuff again in a year or so down the line.

Yup ... dilemma.

Post: #59

Why not try what I suggested in the post below?

Light therapy is ridiculously underused. Look it up and go through the studies if you wish. And the effects of sleep on depression, libido and general well-being are decisive.

Do a 6 week course of bright light therapy and see what happens. It won't be too late to reconsider TRT then if it fails to work.

(10-15-2013 10:17 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  sthesia,

You're 31; your labs are completely fine. I would bet that you don't sleep on an absolutely consistent schedule. Do so. Start going to bed at 11 PM and getting up at 7 AM, every day of the week, no excuses.

If you're using screens/devices after sunset, make sure you download flux.exe and use it correctly.

A 10,000 lux light-box will help you eliminate your mild depression/low libido and will profoundly deepen/enhance your sleep. Light therapy is a ridiculously underused technology which few people know anything about, but if you spend a few hours on pubmed reading about "bright light therapy," you'll learn many important things.

http://sunbox.com/?products=sunlight-jr

Use a lightbox; use flux; and maintain an absolutely consistent schedule for the next 6 weeks and then come back here and tell us how you feel.

It will be highly instructive all around.

Post: #60

Steshia I'm pretty much in the same boat as you.

Life is good but I know it can be better. And I know that in this day and age a lot of factors are contributing to lowering our test. Pollution, plastics, emfs, feminist culture, pick your poison. It's been documented that our generation has lower test levels than our fathers. Time to put the odds back in our favor.

I'm going to give it a go if doc okays it. My appointment is Tuesday.

Post: #61

(10-18-2013 10:08 AM)MidniteSpecial Wrote:  Steshia I'm pretty much in the same boat as you.

Life is good but I know it can be better. And I know that in this day and age a lot of factors are contributing to lowering our test. Pollution, plastics, emfs, feminist culture, pick your poison. It's been documented that our generation has lower test levels than our fathers. Time to put the odds back in our favor.

I'm going to give it a go if doc okays it. My appointment is Tuesday.

Dude. "Life is good but I know it can be better" so now you're going to start injecting hormones? What kind of sense does that make?

How's this: life is good, so be grateful and appreciate it, and realize that it can get much worse very quickly if you start doing stupid things.

As far as guys today having lower test: almost certainly, the main reason for this is none of the things you list. The main reason is that because guys spend so much less time outdoors and put on sunscreen whenever they do, they get a much smaller dose of UV light than men in previous generations did. UV exposure --> vitamin D and test synthesis. If you don't get enough UV exposure, your D and test will be lower.

I haven't seen too many low test construction workers, have you?

Get out in the sun, lift weights hard, and get good sleep, and you'll make a good life much better without fooling around with substances that can fuck you over.

Post: #62

(10-18-2013 10:01 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  

(10-18-2013 10:08 AM)MidniteSpecial Wrote:  Steshia I'm pretty much in the same boat as you.

Life is good but I know it can be better. And I know that in this day and age a lot of factors are contributing to lowering our test. Pollution, plastics, emfs, feminist culture, pick your poison. It's been documented that our generation has lower test levels than our fathers. Time to put the odds back in our favor.

I'm going to give it a go if doc okays it. My appointment is Tuesday.

Dude. "Life is good but I know it can be better" so now you're going to start injecting hormones? What kind of sense does that make?

How's this: life is good, so be grateful and appreciate it, and realize that it can get much worse very quickly if you start doing stupid things.

As far as guys today having lower test: almost certainly, the main reason for this is none of the things you list. The main reason is that because guys spend so much less time outdoors and put on sunscreen whenever they do, they get a much smaller dose of UV light than men in previous generations did. UV exposure --> vitamin D and test synthesis. If you don't get enough UV exposure, your D and test will be lower.

I haven't seen too many low test construction workers, have you?

Get out in the sun, lift weights hard, and get good sleep, and you'll make a good life much better without fooling around with substances that can fuck you over.

So you do blood work on construction workers?

Haven't read anything that dumb in a while.

I take vitamin d my level is 50.

I lift weights. Have been for years.

I avg 8 hours of sleep a night. Could I get more? Yes.

But I'm at a point where I WANT more test than my body is capable of producing on its own.

I've done a lot of research and interviewd a lot of men who have done it right and had success.

Have you ever even injected test?

Or do you just like telling people what to do?

I don't even appreciate your concern because you didn't give me any good info or real life experience.

Post: #63

MidniteSpecial,

I appreciate guys "telling me what to do" -- indeed I've appreciated you "telling me what to do" with regard to a bunch of supplements and foods. It's up to each guy to decide whether or not any poster's recommendations/comments are good -- I try to make the best suggestions I can, and I regret if I come across as a "know-it-all."

As far as injecting test goes, if that's what you want to do, and you've weighed it all out, I guess that's what you're going to do. I wouldn't do it myself, and I certainly don't feel it's out of line for me to express that opinion.

Post: #64

i've been going to the gym recently, first time as a newb. feels like i've been getting testosterone injections. cum is thicker, sex drive is more ferocious, feel more dominant and combative.

Post: #65

Ok so its been a few days shy of a month of my Testosterone injections. I'm feeling pretty good about my decision to start low T treatments. My mood and energy levels have lifted some. I feel more like myself these days. Haven't had any anxiety issues. Workouts have gotten better, not a huge difference but certainly a noticeably one. My libido is a little more like younger me but not to much (thats really not a bad thing, chasing tail was all I lived for or focused on when I was younger me) All these changes I have mentioned are not super drastic night and day differences, but noticeable for sure.

The only real con I have noticed are my balls have shrank....Balls are kind of like grandparents, you dont really miss them till they aren't around any more.

Edit. I am still taking the 100ml every 10 days as the Doc suggested. Reading through the thread there are different people recommending different doses. Should I switch it up or just keeping doing the 100ml every 10 days? I really wanna get the best benefit possible with out really going to the point of abusing it.

Post: #66

you get used to the smaller balls

Post: #67

(11-08-2013 02:05 PM)reaper23 Wrote:  you get used to the smaller balls

Yea slowly but surely I am. I was banging my girlfriend the first time I really noticed they were shrunk.... I got so upset I just stopped banging and didn't even get my nut... haha

Post: #68

I would inject no longer than every 7th day.

Post: #69

(11-08-2013 02:32 PM)Every10GivesMeA10 Wrote:  I would inject no longer than every 7th day.

So I should do the 100ml every 7th day? I will run out of my T sooner and have to tell the doc I need more before I should have ran out. Thats no big deal tho. He did want me to get more blood work done after this first 90 day treatment before he refilled my T anyway. Sucks tho cause hes in another state. I haven't got a local doc since I moved. I don't have health ins and before I got on the T never went to the doc anyway really.

Post: #70

(11-08-2013 02:44 PM)Cr33pin Wrote:  

(11-08-2013 02:32 PM)Every10GivesMeA10 Wrote:  I would inject no longer than every 7th day.

So I should do the 100ml every 7th day? I will run out of my T sooner and have to tell the doc I need more before I should have ran out. Thats no big deal tho. He did want me to get more blood work done after this first 90 day treatment before he refilled my T anyway. Sucks tho cause hes in another state. I haven't got a local doc since I moved. I don't have health ins and before I got on the T never went to the doc anyway really.

As I said before, watch your units. No way are you injecting 100mL (one tenth of as litre). You no doubt mean 100mg.

Post: #71

(11-08-2013 03:25 PM)Acute Angle Wrote:  As I said before, watch your units. No way are you injecting 100mL (one tenth of as litre). You no doubt mean 100mg.

Shit you're right. I even went and looked at my prescription cause I remember you saying something about it. I just checked to make sure its milliliters not milligrams. BUT its 1ml not 100ml.

My bad, but now I know.... and knowing is half the battle

Post: #72

Test comes in an oil suspension and is dosed in milligrams per milliliter.

Most scripts are going to be test cyp (and in the U.S.), cyp comes in at 200 mg per ml.

So each inject is 1/2 a ml (or cc).

Your doctor, like most doctors, doesn't really understand TRT that much.

An inject every 10 days leads to uneven blood levels of test due to the half life (how long it lasts, basically) of test.

By day 7 you don't have any test.

So on days 7, 8, 9, you have no test. Then on day 10 you have test.

But blood levels don't spike immediately, so you're running another day or so off of test.

Guys can get away with taking one shot a week, though the experience of many people over the course of decades is that every 5 days is optimal.

If you shot every 7 days, just don't do 100 mg/.5 cc. Instead, do some math.

1 shot every 10 days = 3 shots a month = 3 cc of test a month.

1 shot every 4 days = 4 shots a month = 3 cc of test a month.

Instead of taking 1/2 a cc (I'm assuming your test is dosed at 200 mg/ml; check this yourself) each inject, take .375 ccs.

That's not medical advice, by the way. It's simply how I would do the math and take the injections for myself.

Post: #73

i take 30 iu every three days or .3ML

works out to like 120+ mg per week

Post: #74

Just read the ebook 'anabolics' by William llewllyns and learned a lot.

I recommend that if you are on trt. It will make you a lot more comfortable.

MikeCF you check that book yet?

Post: #75

(11-08-2013 07:29 PM)MidniteSpecial Wrote:  Just read the ebook 'anabolics' by William llewllyns and learned a lot.

I recommend that if you are on trt. It will make you a lot more comfortable.

MikeCF you check that book yet?

Yes, you probably unwittingly read it based on my recommendation, which I made several months ago.