Post: #701

(12-19-2013 11:42 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  Surely they pay more taxes than the poor (b/c the poor do NOT have much if anything to pay), but they pay far less than their fair share… and the poor need most of their income to survive... the rich can afford to pay higher taxes, b/c their income and their wealth already allow for them to live cushy lives. Also, many times they have the ability to pay high falutent accountants and attorneys to figure out ways to minimize their tax burden.

In essence, they are leeches that are taking disproportionately than they should.

The rich are leeches, even though that one percent of the population contributes forty percent of all tax revenues?

Are you an avowed socialist? I ask, because only a socialist could think that way. What do you consider your political affiliation?

Post: #702

America had such potential... it had such promise ... but close to 100 years of the federal reserve (aka banking cartel) and corporate interests pulling the strings of government have killed our currency and our free market capitalism(i.e. countless companies exempt from obamacare).

The political landscape and future or the US is dire.

If being politcally active comes down to voting republican or democrat and that is the extent the average american can do to solve the countries problems then things will continue as they have been. Expect things to get even worse in all areas for America since both parties represent the same "interests" so get ready for more financial "crises" and from these crises americans will be worn down enough to accept totalitarian rule to prevent anarchy in the streets since that would inconvience their facebook, instagram, dvr lifestyle perogatives.

In the same way Americans willingly gave up their rights to be searched for drugs in cars in the 90s to prevent the crack epidemic and in the 00s to allow TSA agents to "pat down" their kids to prevent terrorism get ready for even more Americans to hand even more of their rights, taxes, freedom etc over to government in the coming years. Obamacare is just another case in point of americans giving up more of their freedom/control of their life to the govt without a fight. America with its instrusive laws and banking system is already unreconizebale to the founders of the US my question is how long it takes most americans to wake up to the fact that it is not remotely the same country they were born into.

Post: #703

(12-20-2013 12:01 AM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  

(12-19-2013 11:42 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  Surely they pay more taxes than the poor (b/c the poor do NOT have much if anything to pay), but they pay far less than their fair share… and the poor need most of their income to survive... the rich can afford to pay higher taxes, b/c their income and their wealth already allow for them to live cushy lives. Also, many times they have the ability to pay high falutent accountants and attorneys to figure out ways to minimize their tax burden.

In essence, they are leeches that are taking disproportionately than they should.

The rich are leeches, even though that one percent of the population contributes forty percent of all tax revenues?

Even though I may sound a little accusatory, I provided various sources for my thoughts, and various explanations of these points through out this thread.

(12-20-2013 12:01 AM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  Are you an avowed socialist? I ask, because only a socialist could think that way. What do you consider your political affiliation?

These various topics have NOTHING to do with me, so I am NOT sure what it matters about any political affiliation that I may have.

Anyhow, I will entertain your question a little bit:

Throughout this thread, I have provided extensive rationale for my thinking on various scattered topics regarding the role of govt..

I am a regular person who has thoughts and critical thinking about the information that I read and write. I am also fairly well concerned about the role of money in politics and politician and mainstream media being overly influenced by money. In my thinking money does NOT equal speech, as was espoused in the Supreme Court's Citizen's United ruling.

I agree with a lot of the ideas that are espoused in Coffee Party USA .. The group is NOT a political party b/c they are meant to be trans-partisan. The group has various resources on their webpage and various podcasts. I am NOT a member of the group, even though I agree with a lot of their core principles, to the extent they have core principles. Some individuals in their group espouse ideas that I do NOT agree with.

http://www.coffeepartyusa.com/

You may get some ideas about my thinking if you were to refer to some of the sources that I cited in various earlier postings in this thread or even to read some of my postings in this thread...

Nothing special about any of it.... I am NOT wedded to any party philosophy or any particular outcome. I do NOT even really like Obamacare that much, even though it seems to be a step in the right direction towards providing a basic social safety net.

Post: #704

(12-20-2013 12:21 AM)bacon Wrote:  my question is how long it takes most americans to wake up to the fact that it is not remotely the same country they were born into.

“The best way to take control over a people and control them utterly is to take a little of their freedom at a time, to erode rights by a thousand tiny and almost imperceptible reductions. In this way, the people will not see those rights and freedoms being removed until past the point at which these changes cannot be reversed.” — Adolf Hitler

Post: #705

(12-20-2013 12:37 AM)Peregrine Wrote:  

(12-20-2013 12:21 AM)bacon Wrote:  my question is how long it takes most americans to wake up to the fact that it is not remotely the same country they were born into.

“The best way to take control over a people and control them utterly is to take a little of their freedom at a time, to erode rights by a thousand tiny and almost imperceptible reductions. In this way, the people will not see those rights and freedoms being removed until past the point at which these changes cannot be reversed.” — Adolf Hitler

Quote:All this was inspired by the principle--which is quite true within itself--that in the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily; and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods. It would never come into their heads to fabricate colossal untruths, and they would not believe that others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously. -- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf

Adolph Hitler's, "The Big Lie," put into practice by Barrack Obama: "If you like your health insurance, then you can keep it."



PolitiFact Lie of the Year:

Quote:Lie of the Year: 'If you like your health care plan, you can keep it'

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/...n-keep-it/

Quote:It seems President Obama is going for a sweep of the liar awards this year. Washington Post just announced their Pinocchio Award for 2013 and to nobody’s surprise, President Obama tops the list with “If you like your plan you can keep it.”

http://poorrichardsnews.com/post/7030563...as-biggest

Post: #706

Bump.

Government shutdown has begun again. The last time this happened it only lasted 12 days I believe.

The democrats have decided to take a stand on the immigration issue and I don't expect Trump to back down.

I expect this to go on for a lot longer.

Post: #707

These shutdowns only affect 20-30% of the government. One of my friends works for one agency I was certain would get shut down, so I asked him. Nope. His agency is entirely self funded. The government shuts down, and they don’t skip a beat.

Post: #708

The longer that they are closed, the better. As we have secretaries who actually are looking at cutting head count, here is where you start with the non-essential staff of the Federal Government. From what I have been reading the various departments are trying to minimize the shutdown, unlike all of the other times where they would close things like the VA or the National Mall, thus maximizing the services on a smaller head count. If you are not going into work on Monday morning for the Federal Government, than do us a favor and look for a new job.

Post: #709

(01-20-2018 01:33 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  Bump.

Government shutdown has begun again. The last time this happened it only lasted 12 days I believe.

The democrats have decided to take a stand on the immigration issue and I don't expect Trump to back down.

I expect this to go on for a lot longer.

Thanks for bumping this thread, Beast.

Surely, guys can get quite passionate and worked up about these kinds of political issues, and we had a few discussion battles last time around.

Your overall implied question whether this time is different seems to be a decent one, and perhaps some of the difference this time has to do with seemingly even greater inabilities to compromise, and seems to me that republicans find even greater side-benefit to shutting down the government and attempting to disable various aspects of it.

Also, seems that ideologically, lots of guys in this forum believe that it is to their benefit to have less government, and it seems that even I am becoming more sympathetic to some of those views in my getting older - but I am not quite to the level of considering that we should blow it all up, except the military and policing aspects.

I might agree with you that, perhaps, chicken will be played longer this time.

Post: #710

(01-20-2018 03:49 PM)porscheguy Wrote:  These shutdowns only affect 20-30% of the government. One of my friends works for one agency I was certain would get shut down, so I asked him. Nope. His agency is entirely self funded. The government shuts down, and they don’t skip a beat.

I would need to see a bit better backing for this kind of assertion that only 20-30% of the government is in fact shut down. You are both seeming to assert that not too much of the government is shut down, and you are also seeming to imply that the impact of such shut down is not going to be very great.

I think that you are correct in one implication, and that is so far in all past government shut downs, few actual furloughs actually occurred, and nearly all government employees received back pay, whether they worked or not during the shut down. This time might be different, but I do think that the longer that the shut down is in place, the bigger and bigger negative impact is likely on the overall economy. Seems like we will see more and more data on this batted around in the coming days (weeks), especially if this shut down approaches anything near the nearly two week period of the last one.

Post: #711

They had a similar thing in the U.K. a few years ago, a general strike of government workers or something like that.

No one noticed so they went back to work.

Post: #712

Someone says the federal govt. is shutting down and I'm all like...

Post: #713

http://www.businessinsider.com/governmen...ose-2018-1

Quote:With the Senate at a standstill on the passage of a continuing resolution to keep the federal government open, the federal government entered into a partial shutdown at midnight Saturday.

As a result, various government services are set to come to a halt, including national parks, museums, and zoos, along with government bureaus like the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, the US Census Bureau, and the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

With all due respect to the parks service, i'd like to see their staff thinned. The ATF and DEA shouldn't even exist. Why do we need extra policing powers when the FBI is more than capable of taking on drugs, guns, and explosives. There's no need to duplicate enforcement efforts.

The Census Bureau doesn't even need to be funded until census time. The Bureau of Labor Statistic, aka the Ministry of Truth, has no reason to exist especially since so many of their stats are fudged.

Quote:But despite dramatic pronouncements from President Donald Trump, Speaker of the House Paul Ryan, Democratic Sen. Dianne Feinstein, and others about the military being compromised and people dying as a result of the impasse, not all government agencies and departments will shut down — services that are deemed "essential" will continue to operate.

This includes any federal government work related to national security, law and order, and emergency life-and-death services. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) and the Federal Emergency Management Agency, for instance, will continue to operate. And although military personnel might have their paychecks delayed, they will still be required to show up for duty as usual.

Police officers should be forced to work without pay. Our soldiers should be the last ones to have their pay cut.

Quote:"Essential" services also include Social Security and the Transportation Security Administration.

There are also employees or agencies whose work is not funded through Congress that will be largely unaffected by the shutdown.

Postal services are one example of this. Special counsel Robert Mueller's investigation into Russian election interference will also continue to operate under the shutdown for this very reason, despite Trump's personal concerns about its growing costs.

A matter of judgment
But aside from these cut-and-dry cases, there is no hard-and-fast rule as to which services are considered "essential." Even within agencies that will continue to operate, there may be employees who are put on leave, and the determination about which parts of the government to keep open is, at least in part, a subjective one.

FILE PHOTO - Scott Pruitt, administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), speaks to employees of the agency in Washington, U.S., February 21, 2017. REUTERS/Joshua Roberts
Scott Pruitt, administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), speaks to employees of the agency in Washington Thomson Reuters

The Environmental Protection Agency is one agency that will likely see most of its employees furloughed — placed on temporary unpaid leave — judging by the Trump administration's dismissive approach toward the body during his first year in office, according to Vox.

Quote:In addition, while the State Department will continue to operate its "essential" and "non-excepted" divisions that are necessary to maintain national security, it too will have to furlough sizeable segments of its employees, according to the department's contingency plan.

I read elsewhere that this will include"visa processing" if this shutdown continues for a long time.

No H1Bs, no rapefugees, especially if the Democrats think Trump will back down. He won't and this will force the Democrats, who feed at the trough of government expenditure, to back down and agree with all of his demands.

This is the best outcome possible.

Quote:In its own updated contingency plan, the Department of Housing and Urban Development stated that only 289 out of 7,797 employees would be considered "excepted" and would have to show up for work during the shutdown. The Federal Aviation Administration, while providing the "essential" duty of air traffic control, is going to furlough just 17,859 of its 45,668 employees, allowing the majority of the agency to function as normal.

While the number of government employees who are placed on furlough is not set in stone, in 2013 a peak of 850,000 people per day were on leave, according to the Office of Management and Budget. Looking at combined paydays, a total of 6.6 million days were lost during 2013's government shutdown due to employee furloughs.

These numbers are likely to be higher if the shutdown exceeds the 16 days during which the federal government was closed in 2013.

Good! I just found 850,000 people who can be trimmed from the government's payrolls.

Post: #714

(01-20-2018 05:21 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:  ]

Police officers should be forced to work without pay. Our soldiers should be the last ones to have their pay cut.

I can't think of anyway better to ensure the police attracts power tripping wannabes instead of grounded family men than this.

Yeah let's just ruin credit ratings, potentially get people kicked out of their house, and make it harder to feed their kids because a bunch of politicians can't get their act together.

Post: #715

(01-20-2018 05:27 PM)Repo Wrote:  

(01-20-2018 05:21 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:  ]

Police officers should be forced to work without pay. Our soldiers should be the last ones to have their pay cut.

I can't think of anyway better to ensure the police attracts power tripping wannabes instead of grounded family men than this.

Yeah let's just ruin credit ratings, potentially get people kicked out of their house, and make it harder to feed their kids because a bunch of politicians can't get their act together.

Fair enough, the correction should be instead that everyone else in the government shouldn't be paid before law enforcement, fire, and defense.

Post: #716

(01-20-2018 05:27 PM)Repo Wrote:  

(01-20-2018 05:21 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:  ]

Police officers should be forced to work without pay. Our soldiers should be the last ones to have their pay cut.

I can't think of anyway better to ensure the police attracts power tripping wannabes instead of grounded family men than this.

Yeah let's just ruin credit ratings, potentially get people kicked out of their house, and make it harder to feed their kids because a bunch of politicians can't get their act together.

Don't they usually wind up giving back pay to these crapweasels when these shutdowns happen? This is just a goddamn paid vacation for these piece of shits.

Aloha!

Post: #717

(01-20-2018 05:40 PM)Kona Wrote:  

(01-20-2018 05:27 PM)Repo Wrote:  

(01-20-2018 05:21 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:  ]

Police officers should be forced to work without pay. Our soldiers should be the last ones to have their pay cut.

I can't think of anyway better to ensure the police attracts power tripping wannabes instead of grounded family men than this.

Yeah let's just ruin credit ratings, potentially get people kicked out of their house, and make it harder to feed their kids because a bunch of politicians can't get their act together.

Don't they usually wind up giving back pay to these crapweasels when these shutdowns happen? This is just a goddamn paid vacation for these piece of shits.

Aloha!

I'm sure they do, so why bother withholding anyway if your just going to end up paying them. Just needlessly making things difficult for people who have nothing to do with the problem, and I hate police just as much as the next guy.

Post: #718

They can actually pass things during a shutdown to authorize payment for groups who wouldn’t be paid otherwise. It’s something they’d likely do if this shutdown went on for any large amount of time, because otherwise they’d probably have some major problems on their hands pretty quick.

I’m pretty sure they’ll still get their next payday regardless anyway, so if the shutdown goes on long enough for us to hit that date (the dems will likely cave before then), that’s likely when they’ll start trying to allow those soldiers to get paid regardless of the shutdown, and if that doesn’t work... well, it won’t take long for some pretty big problems to start.

Post: #719

(01-20-2018 05:21 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:  http://www.businessinsider.com/governmen...ose-2018-1

Quote:With the Senate at a standstill on the passage of a continuing resolution to keep the federal government open, the federal government entered into a partial shutdown at midnight Saturday.

As a result, various government services are set to come to a halt, including national parks, museums, and zoos, along with government bureaus like the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, the US Census Bureau, and the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

With all due respect to the parks service, i'd like to see their staff thinned. The ATF and DEA shouldn't even exist. Why do we need extra policing powers when the FBI is more than capable of taking on drugs, guns, and explosives. There's no need to duplicate enforcement efforts.

The Census Bureau doesn't even need to be funded until census time. The Bureau of Labor Statistic, aka the Ministry of Truth, has no reason to exist especially since so many of their stats are fudged.

Quote:But despite dramatic pronouncements from President Donald Trump, Speaker of the House Paul Ryan, Democratic Sen. Dianne Feinstein, and others about the military being compromised and people dying as a result of the impasse, not all government agencies and departments will shut down — services that are deemed "essential" will continue to operate.

This includes any federal government work related to national security, law and order, and emergency life-and-death services. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) and the Federal Emergency Management Agency, for instance, will continue to operate. And although military personnel might have their paychecks delayed, they will still be required to show up for duty as usual.

Police officers should be forced to work without pay. Our soldiers should be the last ones to have their pay cut.

Quote:"Essential" services also include Social Security and the Transportation Security Administration.

There are also employees or agencies whose work is not funded through Congress that will be largely unaffected by the shutdown.

Postal services are one example of this. Special counsel Robert Mueller's investigation into Russian election interference will also continue to operate under the shutdown for this very reason, despite Trump's personal concerns about its growing costs.

A matter of judgment
But aside from these cut-and-dry cases, there is no hard-and-fast rule as to which services are considered "essential." Even within agencies that will continue to operate, there may be employees who are put on leave, and the determination about which parts of the government to keep open is, at least in part, a subjective one.

FILE PHOTO - Scott Pruitt, administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), speaks to employees of the agency in Washington, U.S., February 21, 2017. REUTERS/Joshua Roberts
Scott Pruitt, administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), speaks to employees of the agency in Washington Thomson Reuters

The Environmental Protection Agency is one agency that will likely see most of its employees furloughed — placed on temporary unpaid leave — judging by the Trump administration's dismissive approach toward the body during his first year in office, according to Vox.

Quote:In addition, while the State Department will continue to operate its "essential" and "non-excepted" divisions that are necessary to maintain national security, it too will have to furlough sizeable segments of its employees, according to the department's contingency plan.

I read elsewhere that this will include"visa processing" if this shutdown continues for a long time.

No H1Bs, no rapefugees, especially if the Democrats think Trump will back down. He won't and this will force the Democrats, who feed at the trough of government expenditure, to back down and agree with all of his demands.

This is the best outcome possible.

Quote:In its own updated contingency plan, the Department of Housing and Urban Development stated that only 289 out of 7,797 employees would be considered "excepted" and would have to show up for work during the shutdown. The Federal Aviation Administration, while providing the "essential" duty of air traffic control, is going to furlough just 17,859 of its 45,668 employees, allowing the majority of the agency to function as normal.

While the number of government employees who are placed on furlough is not set in stone, in 2013 a peak of 850,000 people per day were on leave, according to the Office of Management and Budget. Looking at combined paydays, a total of 6.6 million days were lost during 2013's government shutdown due to employee furloughs.

These numbers are likely to be higher if the shutdown exceeds the 16 days during which the federal government was closed in 2013.

Good! I just found 850,000 people who can be trimmed from the government's payrolls.

Let them starve until they are willing to do the one thing they are actually fit for, pick our strawberries.

Then let them look at the 800k DACA “kids” smiling and going to work.