Post: #51

(09-13-2013 04:42 PM)WestCoast Wrote:  Ha yeah man that's why I always cringe when I see guys talking about bailouts and finance and1%ers.

The government is such a fucking train wreck. Cunts at GM still have your tax dollars btw! Hope you enjoy driving those shitty American made cars! Don't worry the govt is good at making biz decisions and making laws/regulations "for the people"

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R41978.pdf

"To date, the U.S. government has realized an $8.4 billion loss of on its investment in General Motors."

The us government is the worst financial institution on the planet, negative $8.4 billion can't let those American brands die now can we.

GM needs to get to $80 a share for government to break even (stock is @ 36 bones)... LOL

Yep. And then you have the trillions wasted on Green Energy companies that had NO CHANCE what so ever. So most either went bankrupt in a few years, or were sold for pennies on the dollar to the Chinese so they can profit off of it in 50 years when the technology is available.

Our tax dollars at work.

Then you have the money being yanked from infrastructure spending, all the while more and more bridges need repair/rebuilt and power lines never got buried all so Obama could pay off teach unions.

Then you have all the one offs, like studying field mice in California, and studying horse mating in New Mexico, and studying pig methane (aka pig farts) in Iowa.

Yea, if anything, Obama has proven govt. control of the economy is a TERRIBLE idea.

Post: #52

People can't start businesses because of Obamacare.

Even though Obamacare hasn't been implemented.

Someone has turned off his brain and turned on FoxNews.

No one here will accuse me of being a liberal, but blaming Obama for the economy is just absolute nonsense.

I hate Obama!

But it's still nonsense.

Have some intellectual integrity.

Republicans rape the country just as hard as the Democrats.

Neither use lube.

Post: #53

(09-13-2013 05:00 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  People can't start businesses because of Obamacare.

Even though Obamacare hasn't been implemented.

Someone has turned off his brain and turned on FoxNews.

No one here will accuse me of being a liberal, but blaming Obama for the economy is just absolute nonsense.

I hate Obama!

But it's still nonsense.

Have some intellectual integrity.

Republicans rape the country just as hard as the Democrats.

Neither use lube.

Obamacare has been implemented. And people don't start and run successful businesses only planning 2 days in advance. When you have yet another anti-small business regulation coming out of DC that will impact your business, well you do what you can to survive.

And what we are seeing is companies scale back, invest less, let people go, cut hours and raise prices on their products.

I'm not a Republican, but to think Obamacare isn't already greatly impacting the economy is being VERY short sighted.

Post: #54

(09-13-2013 02:54 PM)RexImperator Wrote:  I never compared the two... so I guess you're talking about someone else.

I was simply agreeing with the proposition put forth that the aftermath of WWII produced some unique circumstances of benefit to the USA.

Yes I was. They posted a few posted above yours.

Post: #55

(09-13-2013 05:03 PM)It_is_my_time Wrote:  Obamacare has been implemented. And people don't start and run successful businesses only planning 2 days in advance. When you have yet another anti-small business regulation coming out of DC that will impact your business, well you do what you can to survive.

And what we are seeing is companies scale back, invest less, let people go, cut hours and raise prices on their products.

I'm not a Republican, but to think Obamacare isn't already greatly impacting the economy is being VERY short sighted.

Small businesses are scaling back because demand isn't there.

Do you own a small business or are you just talking out of your ass?

I run one. It has slowed down because of systemic shock. I'm actually moving out of the area.

I know a lot of guys who went from making 500K+ to barely making it.

Not because of Obama.

But because the economy collapsed - which happened before Obamacare.

But if you run your own business, I've love to hear how Obamacare is ruining it.

I will even bet that you slowed your business down around 2007 or 2008 - when Bush was in office and when the market tanked.

Post: #56

(09-13-2013 05:00 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  Someone has turned off his brain and turned on FoxNews.

Indeed. The user(s) in question have gotten annoying enough I had to create a special stylesheet to completely hide ignored users, so I don't even see that they have made a post that I now ignore.

For geeks, the stylesheet for hard ignoring users in MyBB so their posts are not visible at all is as follows:


userStyles.css is no longer used in Firefox; I had to install the User Style Manager to get this CSS to apply here:

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-us/firefox...e-manager/

Some related information for a different forum (including pointers for non-Firefox users to apply custom stylesheets).

http://forum.unity3d.com/threads/165463-...completely

Post: #57

And the political debate has begun! You guys are flipping a shit sandwich where if it lands on heads it looks like a donkey and if it lands on tails it looks like an elephant.

Have fun with the donkey shit or elephant shot sandwich!

Post: #58

(09-13-2013 05:13 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

(09-13-2013 05:03 PM)It_is_my_time Wrote:  Obamacare has been implemented. And people don't start and run successful businesses only planning 2 days in advance. When you have yet another anti-small business regulation coming out of DC that will impact your business, well you do what you can to survive.

And what we are seeing is companies scale back, invest less, let people go, cut hours and raise prices on their products.

I'm not a Republican, but to think Obamacare isn't already greatly impacting the economy is being VERY short sighted.

Small businesses are scaling back because demand isn't there.

Do you own a small business or are you just talking out of your ass?

I run one. It has slowed down because of systemic shock. I'm actually moving out of the area.

I know a lot of guys who went from making 500K+ to barely making it.

Not because of Obama.

But because the economy collapsed - which happened before Obamacare.

But if you run your own business, I've love to hear how Obamacare is ruining it.

I will even bet that you slowed your business down around 2007 or 2008 - when Bush was in office and when the market tanked.

Small businesses are scaling back for many reasons. Mostly this economy is faltering very badly, despite record deficiet spending. One of the reasons is Obamacare, and many companies have publically come out and said so.

I've never once said only Obama is to blame. TBH this all in reality goes back to Woodrow Wilson installing the Federal Reserve. Things have slowly gotten worse, we got a bump for our great luck following WWII but that bump appears to be coming to an end and soon we may actually have to pay for things again.

Post: #59

If wages went up 10%, the economy would expand because the customer base would increase.

This is basic economics.

This is also verifiable by anyone who has owned a business.

Businessmen were actively involved in their communities because a better community is good for business.

If you run a jewelry store, bakery, or barber shop, the best thing that can happen to your business is for wages to increase.

When wages decrease, demand goes down.

Again, this is basic stuff to anyone who owns his own business.

Obamacare ain't got shit to do with what's happening.

Wages are in the shitter. People can't afford services.

If it weren't for the government stepping in, we would have unemployment similar to that seen in the Great Depression.

There'd be soup kitchens and massive poverty not seen since the Depression.

And that would have nothing to do with Obama.

Post: #60

(09-13-2013 05:14 PM)placer Wrote:  

(09-13-2013 05:00 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  Someone has turned off his brain and turned on FoxNews.

Indeed. The user(s) in question have gotten annoying enough I had to create a special stylesheet to completely hide ignored users, so I don't even see that they have made a post that I now ignore.

For geeks, the stylesheet for hard ignoring users in MyBB so their posts are not visible at all is as follows:

Code:

table[id^="ignored_post_"] { display: none !important; }

userStyles.css is no longer used in Firefox; I had to install the User Style Manager to get this CSS to apply here:

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-us/firefox...e-manager/

Some related information for a different forum (including pointers for non-Firefox users to apply custom stylesheets).

http://forum.unity3d.com/threads/165463-...completely

Why come to a board created due to socialism stealing from men and giving to women, thus making the women very low quality, if you want more of this in your life?

Post: #61

(09-13-2013 05:16 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  If wages went up 10%, the economy would expand because the customer base would increase.

This is basic economics.

This is also verifiable by anyone who has owned a business.

Businessmen were actively involved in their communities because a better community is good for business.

If you run a jewelry store, bakery, or barber shop, the best thing that can happen to your business is for wages to increase.

When wages decrease, demand goes down.

Again, this is basic stuff to anyone who owns his own business.

Obamacare ain't got shit to do with what's happening.

Wages are in the shitter. People can't afford services.

If it weren't for the government stepping in, we would have unemployment similar to that seen in the Great Depression.

There'd be soup kitchens and massive poverty not seen since the Depression.

And that would have nothing to do with Obama.

And the govt. cannot artificially inflate wages, nor can they continue to spend money like a drunken sailor at port forever. We will soon have to pay for all of this wasteful spending and it will be VERY painful.

Post: #62

(09-13-2013 05:16 PM)It_is_my_time Wrote:  Mostly this economy is faltering very badly, despite record deficiet spending. One of the reasons is Obamacare, and many companies have publically come out and said so.

I've never once said only Obama is to blame. TBH this all in reality goes back to Woodrow Wilson installing the Federal Reserve. Things have slowly gotten worse, we got a bump for our great luck following WWII but that bump appears to be coming to an end and soon we may actually have to pay for things again.

Do you own a small business?

No, you don't, do you?

Companies are blaming Obamacare because it's an easy scapegoat.

Companies always want to cut benefits. Fucking over labor is what companies do.

Obamacare is just a way to fuck people over without having to say, "Nah, this will just ensure I get a larger bonus."

Did you not see what happened to Caterpillar?

The company said it had to cut wages of the working man to remain competitive. Then the CEO got a $10 million or so raise.

The same thing is happening with Obamacare.

Companies are fucking people over to bolster their bottom line. To avoid criticism, they say, "We don't want to. Obama made us!"

Only fools and posers who do not actually run businesses buy into that bullshit.

By the way, the average FoxNews viewer is a fat, balding, white man married to a fat hag.

Think that about before taking what Fox says as Gospel.

Post: #63

(09-12-2013 08:56 PM)Cattle Rustler Wrote:  Losing a war is the best way to prosperity, just look at Japan and Germany.

They were protected by the US, they had limited armed forces and thus had little to spend on military.

Those countries were down to rubble so they had to build everything again.

All that money that they saved from military spending went straight to investing. It's a shame we spend more on defense than education.

EDIT: This post was eaten this morning which is why I had to reply 3 pages deep into the thread. Good thing I saved what I wrote in Notepad.

For the fiscal year of 2013, the US government(federal, state, and local) will spend roughly $934.9 billion on education with roughly two-thirds of that being funded by local government. The US defense budget which is almost entirely federal will spend $857.7 billion. This disproves the argument that defense gets more funding than education in the US. Source: http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/year...30#usgs302

Granted, I do believe that both the defense and education budgets are bloated and could be downsized considerably if we took more than a half-handed effort to stop waste. Also, unlike Japan and Germany, we don't have the ability to offload our defense obligations(to ourselves and other nations that we have pacts with) on another, much larger nation.

Now to the topic at hand. Income inequality is natural but this level is absolutely unhealthy and unsustainable for a post-agricultural economy that relies on a large, middle class, consumer base to drive growth. If consumers can't afford to consume, then demand is low causing capital to go un/underutilized which restricts hiring. It's a self-growing/self-destroying cycle that Keynes realized during the Great Depression. The demand-side of the equation(consumers) needs more income in order to bolster demand so that companies can begin hiring again but they won't hire until they have growth. It's a chicken-and-the-egg problem. Wealth needs to be spread more evenly towards the middle class in the long term to keep demand up and to continue growth but unfortunately the ultra-wealthy don't exactly see it that way. This was a long time coming; When you outsource the wealth-creation mechanisms to save some money, you are simultaneously sapping your own customer-base as well. Now that the easy credit which allowed us to continue spending despite the large trade deficits has been maxed out, it's time to pay the creditor. Yay for excessive greed!

Post: #64

(09-13-2013 05:21 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  [...]
Did you not see what happened to Caterpillar?

The company said it had to cut wages of the working man to remain competitive. Then the CEO got a $10 million or so raise.

The same thing is happening with Obamacare.

Companies are fucking people over to bolster their bottom line. To avoid criticism, they say, "We don't want to. Obama made us!"

[...]

Only fools and posers who do not actually run businesses buy into that bullshit.

Exactly. When CEOs become too greedy and take too much from the hard working men that made their business possible, the only answer I can see that will work is government intervention. If we increased the taxes on that $10 million raise, and gave the money to the middle class (via government grants, business loans, purchasing items from businesses in America, etc.), it will increase the prosperity for all.

Here are some more facts about the income inequality in the US: http://www.the-crises.com/income-inequal...-the-us-1/

Post: #65

Sweden is a false utopia. The US won't become like those Scandinavian countries simply by mimicking their social welfare policies. Those people have a very long and shared history full of mutual trust and cooperation, unlike Americans. This is very important when it comes to how well public institutions perform.

The following article really explains this well. Love this quote.

Quote:A Scandinavian economist once stated to Milton Friedman: "In Scandinavia we have no poverty." Milton Friedman replied, "That's interesting, because in America among Scandinavians, we have no poverty either." Indeed, the poverty rate for Americans with Swedish ancestry is only 6.7%, half the U.S average. Economists Geranda Notten and Chris de Neubourg have calculated the poverty rate in Sweden using the American poverty threshold, finding it to be an identical 6.7%.

http://www.newgeography.com/content/0015...lse-utopia

Post: #66

(09-13-2013 05:21 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

(09-13-2013 05:16 PM)It_is_my_time Wrote:  Mostly this economy is faltering very badly, despite record deficiet spending. One of the reasons is Obamacare, and many companies have publically come out and said so.

I've never once said only Obama is to blame. TBH this all in reality goes back to Woodrow Wilson installing the Federal Reserve. Things have slowly gotten worse, we got a bump for our great luck following WWII but that bump appears to be coming to an end and soon we may actually have to pay for things again.

Do you own a small business?

No, you don't, do you?

Companies are blaming Obamacare because it's an easy scapegoat.

Companies always want to cut benefits. Fucking over labor is what companies do.

Obamacare is just a way to fuck people over without having to say, "Nah, this will just ensure I get a larger bonus."

Did you not see what happened to Caterpillar?

The company said it had to cut wages of the working man to remain competitive. Then the CEO got a $10 million or so raise.

The same thing is happening with Obamacare.

Companies are fucking people over to bolster their bottom line. To avoid criticism, they say, "We don't want to. Obama made us!"

Only fools and posers who do not actually run businesses buy into that bullshit.

By the way, the average FoxNews viewer is a fat, balding, white man married to a fat hag.

Think that about before taking what Fox says as Gospel.

Actually yes I do own a small business. But after reading your post I am not sure if it is worth spending my time responding to you. Calling me names or FoxNews viewers names (I don't watch FoxNews) only makes you point look even weaker.

Obamacare = 1,200 page bill full of regulations that will cost every business more money. In the end the companies have to decide if they want to pay a penalty, cut workers, of pay a lot more than the penalty to provide insurance. Most are simply cutting workers or cutting healthcare to their workers and opting to pay the fine. This simply hurts the middle class. But that is the ultimate goal of Obamacare, to fail so it can be replaced by even worse socialist healthcare.

As for Caterpillar, I don't know all the details. If the govt. wasn't in the road a new small business could start up, hire Caterpillar's best employees for the money they were making and bury Caterpillar. Or if those employees are worth what they were paid, they could go to a competitor and make it back and hurt Caterpillar.

Companies exist to make money. They will pay bottom dollar, as they have to so that they can compete. If they fuck over labor too much, labor can simply leave and bury the company for doing so.

Post: #67

(09-13-2013 05:33 PM)placer Wrote:  

(09-13-2013 05:21 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  [...]
Did you not see what happened to Caterpillar?

The company said it had to cut wages of the working man to remain competitive. Then the CEO got a $10 million or so raise.

The same thing is happening with Obamacare.

Companies are fucking people over to bolster their bottom line. To avoid criticism, they say, "We don't want to. Obama made us!"

[...]

Only fools and posers who do not actually run businesses buy into that bullshit.

Exactly. When CEOs become too greedy and take too much from the hard working men that made their business possible, the only answer I can see that will work is government intervention. If we increased the taxes on that $10 million raise, and gave the money to the middle class (via government grants, business loans, purchasing items from businesses in America, etc.), it will increase the prosperity for all.

Here are some more facts about the income inequality in the US: http://www.the-crises.com/income-inequal...-the-us-1/

If you taxed that $10,000,000 a raise at 100% that would be about 3 pennies for every American. Liberal economics do not work.

Post: #68

Honestly, I think the biggest problem has less to do with government policy and more to do with our education system and national pride.

Historically, the only way nations became rich was through war. Robbing your neighbor was the easiest and surest way to gain.

In fact, I forgot about another time when the American middle class grew: when they expanded across the continent via the "manifest destiny" while they displaced millions of Indians. Yet another instance of war = profit.

But even if you were a billionaire in the Middle Ages, what would that have given you? A castle? Land? A bunch of horses? And an army to defend yourself?

It's not really money that improves the quality of life. It's technology.

So if America isn't willing to use war to steal from conquered nations (except in the Middle East, and only for a few select resources like Oil) then there is no way for there to be a large middle class like there was after WW2 EXCEPT for one thing:

HEAVY development of technology. Schools would need to place a premium on math, science, and robotics.

Does American education do anything like this? Of course not, instead we get shit K-12 education which emphasizes politically correct learning, followed by 4 more years of diploma mills that are forced to work with children who got a shit education growing up. The amount of technology produced by college grads isn't nearly enough to keep up with the growing demand for money and jobs, and it is our shit education system to blame.

When most college grads get out of graduation, they have a skill set which is totally useless for the job market. No one cares if you can read and write well. No one cares if you're a good "team player." No one cares if you know how to make the perfect experiment. Just a bunch of drones, there's no creativity.

People need new commodities to buy and sell, which means there needs to be more steve jobs/bill gates types of people (both college dropouts... surprise). But right now, we aren't getting much innovation at all, and I place the blame at the feet of our education system which only works to profit off the enslavement of children.

So the only really effective solutions are through education or war, and our education system is dominated by left-wing feminists who believe math and science are products of the patriarchy. Meanwhile, the American public hates war.

So the rich will continue their domination.

Post: #69

Incidentally, come to think of it, war has been one of the best ways to develop new technology.

Post: #70

(09-13-2013 06:09 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  Sweden is a false utopia. The US won't become like those Scandinavian countries simply by mimicking their social welfare policies. Those people have a very long and shared history full of mutual trust and cooperation, unlike Americans. This is very important when it comes to how well public institutions perform.

The following article really explains this well. Love this quote.

Quote:A Scandinavian economist once stated to Milton Friedman: "In Scandinavia we have no poverty." Milton Friedman replied, "That's interesting, because in America among Scandinavians, we have no poverty either." Indeed, the poverty rate for Americans with Swedish ancestry is only 6.7%, half the U.S average. Economists Geranda Notten and Chris de Neubourg have calculated the poverty rate in Sweden using the American poverty threshold, finding it to be an identical 6.7%.

http://www.newgeography.com/content/0015...lse-utopia

We don't have to be an exact clone of Scandinavia. But there are things we could do that would help create a more equitable society. For example. Single-payer healthcare. Tax the fuck out the elites to pay for it. And the less money you make, the less you get taxed to pay for it. The rich have the money, they'll continue to be rich regardless. That's one way of redistributing wealth in a way that makes sense. Another way, raise taxes on the extremely wealthy to give more scholarships to poor and middle income students so that people who want to go to school are saddled with 6-figure debt upon graduation. School is actually quite cheap in Europe.

Post: #71

(09-13-2013 06:13 PM)It_is_my_time Wrote:  As for Caterpillar, I don't know all the details. If the govt. wasn't in the road a new small business could start up, hire Caterpillar's best employees for the money they were making and bury Caterpillar. Or if those employees are worth what they were paid, they could go to a competitor and make it back and hurt Caterpillar.

Companies exist to make money. They will pay bottom dollar, as they have to so that they can compete. If they fuck over labor too much, labor can simply leave and bury the company for doing so.

Leave and go where? Manufacturing jobs are already vanishing as it is. I don't think you understand the labor dynamics in this globalized world. You yourself said they have to pay bottom dollar. Wages and benefits (in the private sector) are being eroded in a race to the bottom. That isn't a left-wing or right-wing talking point but it is the reality.

Before the 1980s and 1990s, there was a fine balance of power between management and labor but in this new global economy, that balance has shifted and managements have all the power over labor.

Edit: I am taking from the perspective of workers in the US and Canada and other Western countries.

Post: #72

(09-13-2013 06:22 PM)Samseau Wrote:  Incidentally, come to think of it, war has been one of the best ways to develop new technology.

This is true. Some of our greatest technological innovations were created during the time the USA and USSR were at loggerheads.

Almost every Russian I've met that lived there during the Cold War is an engineer by training.

Post: #73

The thing to keep in mind with respect to societies like those in Scandinavia is that to have a stable middle class life there you pretty much are giving up the prospect of ever becoming wealthy.

Someone from Sweden once explained their history to me but at some point the people revolted and threatened to overthrow the monarchy until a social compromise was reached.

In exchange for allowing the rich to carry on their affairs, a social welfare state was established.

But the interesting thing is they tax income, not wealth. There's no death tax in Sweden. I also don't think there's much of an estate tax. The corporate tax rates (crucial to the wealthy) are lower than that of the US. Most wealthy people earn their money through investments, not salary. So they basically remain rich while the commoners are paying for the system that gives them all those fancy quality of life perks.

So basically the average Joe is sacrificing his talent and ambition in exchange for a system where everyone is taken care of.

Fuck that.

Maybe they rank higher than us by a lot of measures, but the idea that I pretty much have to live in a country where I never have the chance to be wealthy is unsettling to me. That's just fundamentally unamerican.

I also quarrel with the rankings. They probably look at the US on a whole, but the neighborhoods and zip codes in our finer metropolitan areas rank on the same level if not better than a lot of those places.

Post: #74

(09-13-2013 06:28 PM)TheSlayer Wrote:  

(09-13-2013 06:13 PM)It_is_my_time Wrote:  As for Caterpillar, I don't know all the details. If the govt. wasn't in the road a new small business could start up, hire Caterpillar's best employees for the money they were making and bury Caterpillar. Or if those employees are worth what they were paid, they could go to a competitor and make it back and hurt Caterpillar.

Companies exist to make money. They will pay bottom dollar, as they have to so that they can compete. If they fuck over labor too much, labor can simply leave and bury the company for doing so.

Leave and go where? Manufacturing jobs are already vanishing as it is. I don't think you understand the labor dynamics in this globalized world. You yourself said they have to pay bottom dollar. Wages and benefits (in the private sector) are being eroded in a race to the bottom. That isn't a left-wing or right-wing talking point but it is the reality.

Before the 1980s and 1990s, there was a fine balance of power between management and labor but in this new global economy, that balance has shifted and managements have all the power over labor.

Edit: I am taking from the perspective of workers in the US and Canada and other Western countries.

Well, if no one else wants to pay them as much as they think they are worth, then why should the govt. jump in and force a company to pay them that much?

Eventually that company will just leave, and instead of making less, they make $0 along with $0 tax revenue.

If they can't find as much as they want doing what they do, then they need to get into another field. I am in IT full time, I have to constantly learn new technologies and new things to keep up. Just the way things are.

Post: #75

(09-13-2013 06:40 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  The thing to keep in mind with respect to societies like those in Scandinavia is that to have a stable middle class life there you pretty much are giving up the prospect of ever becoming wealthy.

Someone from Sweden once explained their history to me but at some point the people revolted and threatened to overthrow the monarchy until a social compromise was reached.

In exchange for allowing the rich to carry on their affairs, a social welfare state was established.

But the interesting thing is they tax income, not wealth. There's no death tax in Sweden. I also don't think there's much of an estate tax. The corporate tax rates (crucial to the wealthy) are lower than that of the US. Most wealthy people earn their money through investments, not salary. So they basically remain rich while the commoners are paying for the system that gives them all those fancy quality of life perks.

So basically the average Joe is sacrificing his talent and ambition in exchange for a system where everyone is taken care of.

Fuck that.

Maybe they rank higher than us by a lot of measures, but the idea that I pretty much have to live in a country where I never have the chance to be wealthy is unsettling to me. That's just fundamentally unamerican.

I also quarrel with the rankings. They probably look at the US on a whole, but the neighborhoods and zip codes in our finer metropolitan areas rank on the same level if not better than a lot of those places.

That would be terrible. My first roommate out of college was from Sweden and was telling much the same and he never wanted to go back. I can't blame him. I like to work hard, I like to achieve things, sounds like it is nearly impossible there.

I believe I read some where that 1,000,000 jobs have disappeared in Sweden in the last 10 years. I wish I knew where I read it so I could link it up. It may have not been accurate, but it is very believable. I do know that each company in Sweden has to have at least 40% of their executive staff be women.

And they still have an even rougher future ahead for them.