Post: #26

(07-30-2013 10:12 PM)Fisto Wrote:  Those things are independent of outsiders opinion of you. Fucking a girl because you paid her doesn't matter to the girl, but it should matter to a man that wants to master himself and grow.

He pays with money. You pay with time spent in the gym, time spent seducing a woman, time spent out where nothing happens (sunk costs that have to be factored in to the "cost" of a bang), time spent exchanging game times/learning game, a bar tab here and there.

I don't do p4p and never have, but the man makes solid points and he completely changed my view on the subject.

Everyone pays. It's just a question of the currency you're using and the cost.

Post: #27

(07-30-2013 10:18 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

(07-30-2013 10:12 PM)Fisto Wrote:  Those things are independent of outsiders opinion of you. Fucking a girl because you paid her doesn't matter to the girl, but it should matter to a man that wants to master himself and grow.

He pays with money. You pay with time spent in the gym, time spent seducing a woman, time spent out where nothing happens (sunk costs that have to be factored in to the "cost" of a bang), time spent exchanging game times/learning game, a bar tab here and there.

I don't do p4p and never have, but the man makes solid points and he completely changed my view on the subject.

Everyone pays. It's just a question of the currency you're using and the cost.

Everyone pays, one is on the part of a monetary transaction.

The other is because you're a man of skill that doesn't have to with money and her seduction happens because you're a man of value that she wants to sleep with. She's giving herself to you.

All this cost per bang bullshit, "factor in how much you spend on a girl with dinner and drinks or just pay her a hundred"

There is much more at stake than someone's money, there's your inner sense of worth. I think of it as having some damn integrity.

I've paid before and I wish I never did because MY sense of value was lowered.

I'm not hating on the guy, if he's happy doing that great, that's his business.

But I do LOOK DOWN on someone that does that.

What's more rewarding? Conquering a mountain or walking up a little mole hill?

Sure, you can say "American women aren't worth conquering"

And most of the time I'd agree, but wherever he's going the women most certainly are.

He pays because he HAS to pay. And I find that route to be the easy way out, and a way that I would never recommend to a friend that wants to get comfortable in his own skin and become what I am calling a Sovereign Alpha[b].

I've mentioned it in another thread, but I believe a man's happiness is tied to what I believe are 4 dimensions, and he has to do them all in tandem.

Having social interactions that lead to sex is one of them.

I'll have an article introducing the concepts out soon.

The you pay anyway argument isn't recognizing key distinctions.

Post: #28

I have to agree with fisto. I think the dude is legit if he's 70 maybe. Then yeah you likely have to throw in the towel & pay.

When it's a pure transaction you're basically saying "I could never get girl like you". Which explains why so much shit goes down in strip clubs. Being real you're not going to pay to bang a 3/10, hence his obsession to describe the features of these hooks. He could never get them, or so he believes.

If he's happy whatever though.

Post: #29

My father has said many times that its safer to pay for sex than to get it for free. There are no attachments, no illusions, and zero hard feelings.

Age and reasoning often go hand in hand. If an older person says something ridiculous, I'll at least file it away for future contemplation.

@Westcoast- he flies in for a week or so. Its not like he lives semi-permanently. He values his solo lifestyle, reading, scubadiving, and doing other stuff he likes. Not my style, but respect for somebody who knows what they wants and enjoys it.

Post: #30

Here's a point the guy made that makes a lot of sense.

If men are pathetic for banging escorts, why do women oppose prostitution?

Women are against escorts because it lowers the price of sex.

If it were culturally normal for a man to bang escorts, why whine and dine women or even learn game?

Women know that disallowing escorts raises their value.

So opposing escorts puts us into a female-centric frame of mind.

"A real man earns sex with a woman." Think about what that presupposes.

Saying, "A real mean earns sex with a woman," suggests that she is worth earning and that we should learn game and take a lot of time to get with women rather than toss them a few dollars and be done with it.

Post: #31

MikeCF

Who gives a flying fuck what women want or don't want?

I couldn't care less if they approve or disapprove of sex with escorts.

We are talking about the individual repercussions of a man that chooses to pay money directly to a woman for sex rather than use his skills and personal value or status. No one is addressing women's intuitive perception of economics.

You are giving these chicks way too much credit.

Arguing that buying drinks and dinner is paying for sex directly or indirectly and therefore makes it the same thing is ignoring so many distinctions I don't know where to begin. When you pay for sex with money, you also pay for it with your dignity.

Men that are married or men with no game or no balls pay for sex.

Men with game do not.

That's the important lesson here.

You guys are valuing the opinion of a man that simply can't get laid and chooses to fly overseas to PAY prostitutes.

Jesus Christ listen to yourselves.

Post: #32

This is a case of getting some guys attempt at validating the easy way into sex.

Post: #33

^ You haven't addressed any of his arguments.

Agree or not, I'm not a pimp and do not profit if you change your mind. And I don't do p4p, so not looking for people to validate my lifestyle, either.

But you haven't actually responded to the arguments. You've just made it clear you look down on him.

Which is cool. You can think what you want. But that's just your subjective view. It's not really a refutation of anything he wrote.

Post: #34

(07-31-2013 04:26 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  Here's a point the guy made that makes a lot of sense.

If men are pathetic for banging escorts, why do women oppose prostitution?

Women are against escorts because it lowers the price of sex.

If it were culturally normal for a man to bang escorts, why whine and dine women or even learn game?

Women know that disallowing escorts raises their value.

So opposing escorts puts us into a female-centric frame of mind.

"A real man earns sex with a woman." Think about what that presupposes.

Saying, "A real mean earns sex with a woman," suggests that she is worth earning and that we should learn game and take a lot of time to get with women rather than toss them a few dollars and be done with it.

You just described the Dominican Republic. Hoez everywhere, pussy dirt cheap, price brought down to a 4 dollar cab ride and beer by said hoezzz.

I tried to make a thread about this but too retarded to explain but it's what's going to happen here if the economy gets worse.

We need more hot hookers here in the US and the poon rate would drop to the sub 30 dollar mark not this 500hh ask about my two girl special shit on backpage.

You will see this if we have another housing bubble I think.

Post: #35

Quote:Men that are married or men with no game or no balls pay for sex.
Men with game do not.

I know successfull players who turned to P4P because they were fed up with all the bullshit.
The only reason why you would prefer to pay with your time/energy/game and look down on guys who pay with money is because your ego is tied up in it. "I am better than he is because he has to pay for it".

Post: #36

No Mike, I dismiss his arguments as not really addressing the issue.

Women's opinion of escorts? Who gives a shit?

I would bang a girl with or without the presences of escorts. You really think they walk around hating escorts because it lowers how many drinks or dinners they will get? Come on.

And we can easily say "a real man tricks women into having sex" and now we no longer use the word "earn", which is just his sneaky way of more validating having sex with prostitutes

We can say "a real man MAKES a woman want to have sex with him" now we also no longer use the word "earn.

"Seduces" a woman with skill

Have you ever fucked a girl without paying drinks or dinner? I have. Has this guy? Which would you choose?

A "real" man has women WANTING to fuck him because they recognize his superior value.

I could go on and on, framing the decision to pay for sex in the context of using the word "earn" is just more rationalizing.

Post: #37

It's an interesting topic to debate. I mean high end guys like spitzer had high end escort services. So it's not like that dude was forced to pay for sex.

He could have banged chicks with his high status positon for sure.

This just circles back to the same issue of self confidence and I still agree with fisto that banging nothing but prostitues likely signals a low self-esteemed man (unless you're real old).

Overall, it seems, having P4P as legal seems to improve the quality of regular women though. Cheap P4P countries have regular women who offer more than just sex because they know the guys can go and pay for it for a measly $20.

Post: #38

(07-31-2013 04:44 PM)w00t Wrote:  

Quote:Men that are married or men with no game or no balls pay for sex.
Men with game do not.

I know successfull players who turned to P4P because they were fed up with all the bullshit.
The only reason why you would prefer to pay with your time/energy/game and look down on guys who pay with money is because your ego is tied up in it. "I am better than he is because he has to pay for it".

You're goddamn right.

Because one takes effort, work, and skill. The other takes money and your dignity.

Post: #39

(07-31-2013 04:49 PM)WestCoast Wrote:  It's an interesting topic to debate. I mean high end guys like spitzer had high end escort services. So it's not like that dude was forced to pay for sex.

He could have banged chicks with his high status positon for sure.

This just circles back to the same issue of self confidence and I still agree with fisto that banging nothing but prostitues likely signals a low self-esteemed man (unless you're real old).

Overall, it seems, having P4P as legal seems to improve the quality of regular women though. Cheap P4P countries have regular women who offer more than just sex because they know the guys can go and pay for it for a measly $20.

Let me give you guys a different point of reference, I'm not so sure guys like Spitzer CAN bang women with his status.

I'm pretty sure I read and article posted here about a prostitute that claimed to make a million a year servicing silicon valley geeks that were rich as hell.

I remember her distinctly telling how these guys would ask her for advice on how to get girls. She said one guy asked "do you think I should get a puppy?" after he pulled up in a ferrari.

Post: #40

Sure but there are other examples spitzer aside who are high value and could bang girls but then just decide to pay to forego the whole relationship aspect.

Charlie sheen could be used as an example, also have worked with guys who simply use escorts to bang on the side to avoid ruining their marriage etc.

So I'm sticking with my same response that it's fine for dudes who are damn near about to die, because wtf else are u gonna do if you're old and ugly? But for young guys that has to be a confidence killer.

I'm a realistic guy, at 70 no 18 year old is gonna want to bang me. But beyond that I got too much self esteem to pay up for sex.

Post: #41

Let's say you're a millionaire, Fisto.

You lived in Vegas.

What do you think women are gonna try to do once they find what you're worth? They'll be scooping that baby batter right out of your condom.

There are lots of reasons to use escorts that have nothing to do with being a loser.

"I don't pay them for sex, I pay them to leave." Charlie Sheen - who could out pull any 5 of us combined - said that.

Post: #42

(07-31-2013 05:01 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  Let's say you're a millionaire, Fisto.

You lived in Vegas.

What do you think women are gonna try to do once they find what you're worth? They'll be scooping that baby batter right out of your condom.

There are lots of reasons to use escorts that have nothing to do with being a loser.

"I don't pay them for sex, I pay them to leave." Charlie Sheen - who could out pull any 5 of us combined - said that.

I don't see hookers as having some integrity that would keep them from doing the same thing.

That's a separate issue really. Go flush your condom.

And I agree there are lots of reasons to fuck hookers.

But this guys reason is because he finds women here to much trouble (no social skills or game to fuck them) and travels over to other countries and pays for it (also cannot crack the code there).

We are talking about THIS guy's reasons.

Charlie can go fuck whom he wants, we are talking about this guy and his stated reasons.

OUR reasons for fucking women are that we want to because we enjoy sex with beautiful girls and ugly ones too.

There is a reason you haven't paid for sex before mike, on some level, I think you know it's the weak move.

Post: #43

(07-31-2013 05:21 PM)Fisto Wrote:  There is a reason you haven't paid for sex before mike, on some level, I think you know it's the weak move.

That was my view.

Now...I'm not so sure.

Post: #44

(07-31-2013 05:24 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

(07-31-2013 05:21 PM)Fisto Wrote:  There is a reason you haven't paid for sex before mike, on some level, I think you know it's the weak move.

That was my view.

Now...I'm not so sure.

Alright, well that's fair.

But let me offer up something else.

Despite what he says, I think he's got serious flaws in his self confidence and social interactions with women.

And no amount of paying for sex will ever change that.

Post: #45

I'll jump into this thread.

I used to have adamant feelings against guys who p4p when I was younger, I'd think that only losers with low self esteem would pay for sex. I had the same thoughts about guys who married foreign women.

As I got older I changed my mind. On a certain level p4p can be seen as taking the easy way out. We're on this board and we improve ourselves. We improve our lifestyle, we learn new skills, we lift weights, and we become more attractive. We do most of this for girls, how much of this stuff would you guys do if it didn't improve our sexual value? Most guys definitely wouldn't work as hard. The time investment in all this stuff is huge.

I'm still relatively young so I have a lot of energy to do all these things. It also makes sense from a monetary point of view. I'm not making 300/hr to hand over to these chicks.

But if I do a thought experiment I wonder how long can I keep up this pace? 5 years? 10 years? Do I want to deal with the bullshit of a 23 year old girl when I'm 40 with no guarantee of banging her. Probably not.

I also probably have a lot more money when I'm in my 40s that the cash will be a nonissue.

There's a big difference between:

Guy A: Hopeless doesn't care about self improvement or becoming attractive. Takes the easy road and wants to bang hotties with no work. Does p4p.

Guy B: Put in many solid years in the game, and pretty much done it all. He's now in his mid 40s, and has money. Can't keep the pace anymore and he's tired of dealing with the bullshit in the game.

Now imagine you're guy B, you can bang a 9.5 for less than a Benjamin.

Would you?

The answer is easy for me.

Post: #46

I would argue that a big part of fullfillment for any man IS the "trouble" you are going to. If you are working out for girls, eating healthy, improving yourself, you are wrong.

That should be done because you value yourself, not to look better in the eyes of women. If that's too much trouble then I'd say the other half of your life is going to be miserable.

I'm 35, when I'm in my 40s I plan on being better than I am now.

Post: #47

Seriously, why all this fuss? Who really gives a shit?

To each his own, I say. If you feel like paying for sex lowers your own personal opinion of yourself, don't do it. If it doesn't and you get what you want out of it, more power to you.

Fisto, you're describing your own personal feelings in regard to paying for sex. There is no such thing as something that is objectively shameful. It is as shameful as you yourself make it out to be.

I personally don't like paying for sex mainly because...

A.) For me it feels analogous to bribing an opposing sports team into letting you win. I enjoy the feeling of conquest and accomplishment that comes with sleeping with a new woman, knowing she's having sex with me because she wants to.

B.) Even with short-term flings...and occasionally even with one night stands, there's still a nice sense of mutual lust and affection that I enjoy.

C.) In the long run, assuming you get either a girlfriend or a fuckbuddy, it's actually much cheeper. Often, you can just go to her house, fuck, and hang out. If you both feel like it, you'll go out to dinner or see a movie, but since sex is already out of the way, it's more because you want to have fun, not because you hope doing so will get her into bed. With an escourt, you'd have to pay every time you pump, so to speak.

However, I would liken this to a man who can grow, prepare and cook his own food and a man who chooses to eat out. Of course, cooking your own meals is not only better, but healthier and more satisfying. It's a skill that you can be proud of. But am I going to look down on someone who chooses to go to a restaurant instead? Does paying someone to cook your meals for you imply that you're incapable of cooking yourself?

Just because I don't enjoy paying for sex doesn't mean it's my place to judge someone else. As Long as you're not harming others or screwing slaves, it's really a matter of how you feel about what you're doing. If your needs are sufficiently met by paying, then by all means, go ahead, and fuck what other people think.

Post: #48

"you're just describing you're own feelings"

No shit?

I'm on a forum, in the GAME section, having to debate with guys on why paying for sex is bad for their inner game.

I am actually having an out of body experience because of it.

Post: #49

(07-31-2013 04:51 PM)Fisto Wrote:  

(07-31-2013 04:44 PM)w00t Wrote:  

Quote:Men that are married or men with no game or no balls pay for sex.
Men with game do not.

I know successfull players who turned to P4P because they were fed up with all the bullshit.
The only reason why you would prefer to pay with your time/energy/game and look down on guys who pay with money is because your ego is tied up in it. "I am better than he is because he has to pay for it".

You're goddamn right.

Because one takes effort, work, and skill. The other takes money and your dignity.

Wow, I just read that whole guys thread. Took ages. He's certainly sure of himself.

I don't think there is an absolute answer here. Every person values different things differently. Like many things in this world, the value of game is subjective.

Fisto, you have obviously banged a lot of women and you have turned it into a craft and you have spent a lot of time improving and fine tuning this craft. It is a part of your lifestyle and it fulfills you and that's great. A lot of guys would envy your sex life. But I'm sure a large amount of guys probably just think, who cares? When you say you lose your dignity when paying for sex, I can't say I fully agree with that.

You dedicate a large amount of your time and money to women: working out, building social circles, learning game, going out to bars and talking to women, day gaming, setting up dates, pipelining. Probably the majority of your night from 7pm til 4am is focused on finding a woman to bang. Many would say that is too much time to dedicate to getting laid. 'Cost per bang' includes time as well as money.
But this is how you attract women. This is how you improve your game. Women want to sleep with you. You can now sleep with women at will for free and this is the lifestyle you want. I agree, this is a cool lifestyle. This applies to many of the guys here.

But perhaps that doesn't fulfill everyone. Perhaps other guys just don't think it is worth it to dedicate that much time to game. Do you think somone like Zuckerberg looks at you and thinks wow, I wish I had chased that lifestyle?
Zuckerberg probably spent most of his life 20 hours a day sitting in his dorm room writing code and jerking off to Bangbros twice a day. He's probably banged 2 girls in his life. He'd probably pee his pants at the thought of opening a hot girl. But he's worth $16 billion. He'd probably read this thread and think, what an idiot, this guy spends so much of his time trying to pickup women when you can just pay them a few pennies and sleep with them instantly. Without all the surfing OKCupid, getting their number, pretending to listen to them at the bar bullshit.

This guy could just buy an island, pay 100 foreign hookers to live on it with him and have his own private pussy carousel for the next 10 years. Does he give a shit if he's paying them? Do you think he feels like he's losing his dignity? Would he prefer to spend his time reading The Game, studying the game, practicing the game, working out at the gym, putting on nice clothes, making OKCupid and FilipinoCupid and ColombianCupid accounts and sending out mass messages, learning how to approach and number close, be cocky funny and neg and disarm LMR? And then travel to each country and go out and try and shore each of those 100 hookers instead? Do you think he'd enjoy that more? Do you think that would make him feel like he's preserved his dignity? Why would he do that when he can just click his fingers and have these girls in front of him for a price he can afford? You look at someone who resorts to P4P and you scoff, but they probably look at someone who takes the time and effort to seduce women and scoff all the same. To them, the result is the same. You both bang the girls you want.

He and the guy in that post obviously don't value "woman sleeping with them just because they want to" as much as you or I do. He probably would never have been able to achieve what he has achieved if he had gone chasing women for 2 months in DR, 3 months in Europe, 3 months in SEA, an hour every day reading RVF, an hour walking around the mall day gaming etc etc. As well all know, learning to pickup women is not easy and like anything worthwhile it takes time, money, effort and practice. People simply choose to dedicate their time to other things, and just because they don't dedicate it to picking up women does not make them any better or worse than you or I.

Tiger Woods - another prime example. No time to game women, just pay them for the sex and work on becoming the world's greatest golfer. Should never have got married, though.

This guy in the MMA thread obviously dedicates his time to other things, he never invented no Facebook, but he has obviously decided what is important to him and learning to pickup women is not one of them. When he wants sex he pays for it and if that is what makes him happy and allows him to dedicate his life to his passions then I don't see the problem in that. Whether or not the things he does with his time have more or less value than picking up women is not for us to decide. And it shouldn't matter to anyone but him.

In my opinion your inner game only suffers if paying is your only choice. I know I can pick up girls. I know I don't need to pay. If I ended up paying for it one night, I don't think I'd feel my value or dignity diminish. I know I can go out tomorrow night or make a phone call and bang for free.

I've never paid for sex. I get far too much enjoyment from banging a girl who genuinely wants to bang me. I also take pride in being able to say I've never paid for sex. But I know that probably won't last and I won't rule out paying for it somewhere down the line. And I certainly don't see everyone who indulges in p4p hopeless, undignified losers. Only some of them

Post: #50

If all I did was focus on fucking women, I'd be miserable. That's one of four things a man has to do in tandem with the other three to be happy. I've said that several times.

And to be perfectly honest with you, I do believe a guy like zuckeburg is miserable because he's about the furthest thing from anything a woman or a friend would want.