Post: #126

(07-27-2013 07:49 PM)Samseau Wrote:  Tim Wise reminds me of Al Gore, who preached his bullshit about global warming yet lived in a mansion that consumed more energy than dozens of homes put together.

I don't see it that way. It's possible to not want to live in a black community while also saying that society is racist.

I recognize that there is racism in society. I had black roommates in college. One of many stories:

---
A guy wanted to get some booty but didn't have a car.

"Bro, take mine."

The three black guys looked at me, astounded.

"You crazy?"

"What do you mean?"

"Nigga, I'm gonna get pulled over in your car. Do you think they are going to believe that I borrowed it from you?"

---

Now some will say that police are rationally using racial profiling to target blacks.

But when your friend won't even take your car...You put a face to the argument and start wondering, "Shit, I'd be mad at the world and would probably be more prone to commit crimes, too, if society was going to treat me like a criminal."

Also, in college I would dress like a bum after too many 3 a.m. philosophical discussions over espresso. One of my closet friends (black) wore suits.

Who do you think got treated with more decency and respect when we went out for breakfast or went to the cigar shop?

That friend would also trip out when we'd go to a grocery store. We'd hit up the nearest store after the gym and I'd start eating my post workout carbs (i.e., cookies). He freaked the fuck out at first, thinking we were going to get stopped by security.

I couldn't even understand his position. "What? I'm going to pay for this. Who cares?"

I have a lot of little stories like that.

And let's not even talk about cocaine v. crack. I could confidently go out with an 8 ball and not even sweat it.

But if you're black and have crack, good luck not getting hassled.

I think these issues are pretty messy, man. I could argue both sides of them and my view is more in the middle of yours and HCs.

Blacks are persecuted. But partly that's because blacks haven't collectively said, "Let's step up and not give white people a reason to harass us."

On the other hand, it's unfair of whites to force blacks to make the first move. "Prove to us you're not criminals."

But SOME side has to make the move. If it's not going to be whites, then blacks need to step up - as unfair as expecting that of them is.

Post: #127

(07-25-2013 04:12 AM)pitt Wrote:  Blacks need to stop being treated as victims.

Same old, same old

Post: #128

(07-27-2013 01:02 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

(07-27-2013 11:22 AM)Easy E Wrote:  ^I think Bill O'Reilly has some valid points. Sure, his delivery is a bit over the top, but his facts are dead accurate.

Also, why are blacks in so many countries prone to committing crime (Brazil, USA, Canada, UK, France, etc.)? It is comical to pretend that the high black crime rates only happen in the USA. They seem to happen anywhere there is a large black community. How long can the "legacy of slavery" be used as an excuse to gloss over the facts regarding crime?

Where are your sources for these claims? The majority of Brazilians have some measure of African ancestry (the majority), and that is another country with a shameful history of slavery and inequality.

With France, the majority of the incarcerated are Arab Muslim men mostly from Algeria, a country that has suffered brutal colonial oppression by France. The war for independence there came at a huge loss of both French and Algerian lives and there is well-documented evidence of the disproportionate prejudice and injustice Algerians face as immigrants in France.

The UK and Canada do not have higher incidents of crime from their respective black populations. That is simply untrue. Over 70% of the incarcerated in the UK are white.

Hen, I don't think this is always true, from my experience growing up very close to the largest "indigenous" black community in Canada, the blacks in Nova Scotia arrived there as freed slaves from the USA after having fought for the British in the American revolution and during the war of 1812. Although they were "free", they faced and continue to face the same issues as blacks in the USA do today. One could argue that they're even worse off as they don't have the same power as blacks do state side. I don't like to post on these touchy threads but I'd thought I'd add my 2 cents if anyone wants to know a more about the black community in my home town of Halifax and some of the similarities they have as blacks the States, here's some videos you may find interesting:

Africville, Nova Scotia




Black Loyalist's History: This is an interesting video as it shows the story of how back in the 1800s, after living in Nova Scotia as freed slaves, over 1000 black Nova Scotians sailed on British ships to Sierra Leone and helped found the Capital, Freetown:




As for the crime issues, the black community I grew up near is the pimp capital of Canada and has a very high gun crime rate, by Canadian standards.

Post: #129

(07-27-2013 07:44 PM)Samseau Wrote:  By the way Speak, why is your nice white neighborhood so nice in the first place? Could it be that white culture is a nicer place to live than black culture? *GASP* Was that un-PC of me to say that?

And for the record, I do not think genetics plays much of a big role in this... I think black communities are poor for the same reason Detroit is poor, i.e. Liberal, left-wing policies destroy all that it touches.

I don't have any problem acknowledging the fact that majority white places are preferable to live than majority black places. I think that's as obvious as saying the sun rises in the east. Where it becomes controversial explaining the reason why that is and what exactly could/should be done about it. I don't find it all controversial to be anti-racist and want to live in a majority white neighborhood. Why does being anti-racist require you to go live in the ghetto? Tim Wise preaches against the policies that helped to create the ghettos in the first place(at least from his perspective). That does not mean he would find such places enjoyable to live in. I'm sure if it were up to him there wouldn't be any ghettos in the first place.

I live where I live because basically, I grew up very close to here. My childhood home is 10 minutes from where I live right now. My friends are in this area and it's convenient for me location-wise as to the things I like to do. Yes, it's fairly safe too and the streets are clean and leafy. You may argue that the reason it's nice is because there are lots of whites here and that may very well be the case, but I'm not here because I'm in love with the idea of living next to whites, it just happens to be a neighborhood I enjoy living in and I would probably not enjoy living in Watts when I didn't grow up there, have no connections there and have no real business there.

Post: #130

O'Reilly had greats points but his past baggage may hurt him as a messenger. As for my thoughts on this thread:

1) Brothers, it is nice to have the history lesson but enough is enough. It's like studying Applied Mathematics (my undergrad major)...I don't care to much about the theory (history) but how can I take the current rules and make something out of it?

2) I am TIRED (yes, I am yelling) of hearing "well white people do it too". Let me say this as simple as I can and no offense to the caucasians on this board but I could care less if white folks sold and snorted up every gram of cocaine or crack, if it is illegal, it is illegal. Personality, I feel that as black people and due to us not getting the best "head start" in the world, then that means that we should "walk a tighter line" than others anyway in order to attempt to "catch up"...but we don't. You cannot do the negative things that the "majority" does when you do not "have it like that"

3) The Travon/Zimmerman thing is over. Time to move on. Let's talk about that 70% births-out-of-wedlock rate or that "most of the wealth tied up in drugs, sports & entertainment.

Post: #131

(07-27-2013 08:46 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  I don't see it that way. It's possible to not want to live in a black community while also saying that society is racist.

I recognize that there is racism in society. I had black roommates in college. One of many stories:

---
A guy wanted to get some booty but didn't have a car.

"Bro, take mine."

The three black guys looked at me, astounded.

"You crazy?"

"What do you mean?"

"Nigga, I'm gonna get pulled over in your car. Do you think they are going to believe that I borrowed it from you?"

---

Now some will say that police are rationally using racial profiling to target blacks.

But when your friend won't even take your car...You put a face to the argument and start wondering, "Shit, I'd be mad at the world and would probably be more prone to commit crimes, too, if society was going to treat me like a criminal."

Also, in college I would dress like a bum after too many 3 a.m. philosophical discussions over espresso. One of my closet friends (black) wore suits.

Who do you think got treated with more decency and respect when we went out for breakfast or went to the cigar shop?

That friend would also trip out when we'd go to a grocery store. We'd hit up the nearest store after the gym and I'd start eating my post workout carbs (i.e., cookies). He freaked the fuck out at first, thinking we were going to get stopped by security.

I couldn't even understand his position. "What? I'm going to pay for this. Who cares?"

I have a lot of little stories like that.

And let's not even talk about cocaine v. crack. I could confidently go out with an 8 ball and not even sweat it.

But if you're black and have crack, good luck not getting hassled.

I think these issues are pretty messy, man. I could argue both sides of them and my view is more in the middle of yours and HCs.

Blacks are persecuted. But partly that's because blacks haven't collectively said, "Let's step up and not give white people a reason to harass us."

On the other hand, it's unfair of whites to force blacks to make the first move. "Prove to us you're not criminals."

But SOME side has to make the move. If it's not going to be whites, then blacks need to step up - as unfair as expecting that of them is.

It's funny how you talked about this. I read a Jason Whitlock column today that talked about some of his own experiences with racial profiling and the role it may have played in TM's death. I don't really read Jason Whitlock much unless it's got something to do with sports. Lately, he has been critical of the "hip-hop" culture and the proliferation of rappers as mainstream cultural ideals.

After the Zimmerman verdict, he blamed the death of TM on hip-hop culture and said that the black community needed some introspection but this column talks about racial profiling.

Me posting this column isn't an endorsement for whatever he's saying. Just a coincidence that Mike posted the experiences of black people he knew:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jason-whit...59281.html

Quote:Years ago, I worked for the Charlotte Observer. I lived in Rock Hill, S.C. My picture ran inside the newspaper alongside my occasional columns. One day I was driving home from work around 5 p.m. when a police officer decided I fit the description of a black man who had pulled a string of burglaries. He pulled me over. I was in slacks, dress shoes and a button-up shirt.

He demanded I step out of the car. When I did, I discovered there were six cops and three additional police cars surrounding me and my 1985 Honda Prelude. For the next hour, I stood alongside a busy street as the lead detective berated me and accused me of being a cat burglar. I told him I was a sports writer for the local paper. He didn't believe me. He didn't let me re-enter my car and drive home until a police dispatcher called the Observer and was assured by one of my co-workers that I worked there.

I was not cited for any traffic violation. I had broken no laws. I was guilty of being black when the police were looking for a black burglary suspect.

I drove to my apartment and cried for the next two hours. It was the most humiliating experience of my life. It's difficult to adequately convey the mix of outrage, fear and vulnerability I felt throughout the encounter. I've never forgotten it. Twenty years later, the scar is still there. It burns every time a well-intentioned employee follows me as I shop for clothes.

I rarely participate in race threads here as I don't really care much but if I may say: this is one of the more 'civil' race threads where it hasn't completely gone off the rails and I am actually reading interesting points from both sides.

Post: #132

I got one more rant...

I am also tired of blaming the hip-hop culture. Technically, I was still an older teen when NWA dropped their first singles. Did those songs influence me not to keep walking to my calculus course on campus?...No.

Post: #133

I'm all for solving our issues black people but not with anybody who is not black. That's one of our main issues I believe. We let everyone else into our business and try to tell us why this and that is happening. I don't care about what Bill O' Reilly has to say especially since he has made plenty of past comments that has already let me know he doesn't think too highly of anyone but white people. He did this little rant for ratings and ratings only. I'll pass.

Post: #134

I don't have a problem letting others into our business because so far we have not figured it out on our own. If we can pick up some pointers...great. No need rejecting others input just because they are not black.

Post: #135

(07-27-2013 10:26 PM)TMC Wrote:  I'm all for solving our issues black people but not with anybody who is not black. That's one of our main issues I believe. We let everyone else into our business and try to tell us why this and that is happening. I don't care about what Bill O' Reilly has to say especially since he has made plenty of past comments that has already let me know he doesn't think too highly of anyone but white people. He did this little rant for ratings and ratings only. I'll pass.

This is the problem.

Post: #136

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dred_Scott_v._Sandford

According to Taney, the authors of the Constitution had viewed all blacks as
beings of an inferior order, and altogether unfit to associate with the white race, either in social or political relations, and so far inferior that they had no rights which the white man was bound to respect.

Post: #137

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_sy...experiment

The Tuskegee Syphilis Study, cited as "arguably the most infamous biomedical research study in U.S. history

Post: #138

History and background information is fine and dandy but as the old cliche goes "at the end of the day", you have to make it work under the current setup of the USA.

Post: #139

http://www.blackgenocide.org/sanger.htmlv

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_Parenthood

Post: #140

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part4/4h2933.html

Referring to the language in the Declaration of Independence that includes the phrase, "all men are created equal," Taney reasoned that "it is too clear for dispute, that the enslaved African race were not intended to be included, and formed no part of the people who framed and adopted this declaration. . .

Blacks are not citizens of the United States!

Post: #141

(07-27-2013 10:40 PM)UrbanNerd Wrote:  I don't have a problem letting others into our business because so far we have not figured it out on our own. If we can pick up some pointers...great. No need rejecting others input just because they are not black.

When have we ever been left alone to figure it out on our own in the U.S.? We actually had some thriving communities and businesses (still do to an extent) during segregation but guess who came and put a stop to that? It's laughable u think Bill O' Reilly and certain others are trying to give us pointers lol.

Post: #142

http://www.blackwallstreet.freeservers.c...0Story.htm

The Gap Band made a song about this event - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_Dropped_a_Bomb_on_Me

Post: #143

I don't think "we" are no condition to reject anyone's ideas if you look at our situation currently. Say what you say about O'Reilly but it is not like he was lying. Some of the solutions are quite simple but "we" cannot even do those (fathers in the home, be established before having kids, etc).

Being defiant about taking ideas will not work either...especially when the defiance is just for nothing else but being defiant.

Post: #144

(07-27-2013 08:46 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

(07-27-2013 07:49 PM)Samseau Wrote:  Tim Wise reminds me of Al Gore, who preached his bullshit about global warming yet lived in a mansion that consumed more energy than dozens of homes put together.

I don't see it that way. It's possible to not want to live in a black community while also saying that society is racist.

How can someone credibly claim, that on one hand people are racist towards blacks and that this is wrong, and yet on the other hand, state that they do not want to live with them because they are afraid of Blacks or find Blacks undesirable?

Quote:Blacks are persecuted. But partly that's because blacks haven't collectively said, "Let's step up and not give white people a reason to harass us."

On the other hand, it's unfair of whites to force blacks to make the first move. "Prove to us you're not criminals."

But SOME side has to make the move. If it's not going to be whites, then blacks need to step up - as unfair as expecting that of them is.

Nah, I don't think either side owes each other anything. Blacks are American as Whites. There's no need to even divide the two. I think both sides should admit that racial differences are real, but that they aren't too big of a deal. People should respect that blacks and whites will probably remain separate groups much longer than our lifetimes, and not make a big deal out of that either. At the end of the day, we're just slightly different peoples living together harmoniously in one nation.

People always talk about race with an "Us vs. Them" mentality, and I don't understand the hostility.

Also, I don't believe in the bullsh*t of college black kids getting harassed by cops more than white kids. White kids are treated like shit too. All campus police are like that. The situation changes drastically once you leave campus and see city cops, those guys aren't out to get anyone just because they're black.

If people profile you for a criminal then I'd say you need to get a better wardrobe.

Post: #145

(07-28-2013 02:02 AM)Samseau Wrote:  How can someone credibly claim, that on one hand people are racist towards blacks and that this is wrong, and yet on the other hand, state that they do not want to live with them because they are afraid of Blacks or find Blacks undesirable?

Look, there are racist whites who live amongst or near blacks. So why can't there be non-racist whites who don't live amongst blacks? And once again, how do his personal decisions on where to live invalidate any of the facts he brings forth on racism? You just don't like what he has to say thus you are trying to undermine him by attacking his personal life. A racist is someone who believes in the inherent inferiority of another race. Not living in a black neighborhood does not make him a racist. Now if his daughter wanted to marry a black man and he got pissed about it, then you could credibly beat him over the head for hypocrisy, but the fact is, many anti-racist blacks don't even want to live in black neighborhoods. I doubt Jesse Jackson lives in the hood. Most rappers when they make a bit of money head to the suburbs if they want to raise a family. Wanting to stay as far away from the ghetto as possible is just common sense, not racism. If Tim Wise is a hypocrite, then so is virtually every black person that believes racism exists yet doesn't live in the hood. I don't honestly don't care where the man lives and I never even bothered to find out as it's irrelevant to me because many factors could've gone into his decision that had nothing to do with race. Considering that in a city like Nashville which is quite segregated racially, you are likely to end up an area that is almost entirely black or entirely white and there aren't many ethnically mixed areas like you might find in California.

Why are you singling out Wise? Is it just some personal vendetta?

Post: #146

(07-27-2013 04:52 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

(07-27-2013 04:43 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

(07-27-2013 04:11 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  Jews are a cohesive group of people that originate from one place. They spring from one religion in one part of the world and the diaspora branched out, yet always knowing where they come from.

I know we all look the same to you ( ), but whites are not a monolithic group. White slaves spoke different languages, dialects, and came from different cultures. As with American slaves, the Roman slaves were all tossed in together.

Incidentally, why would is matter if the African slaves all came from different parts of Africa? After a generation or two of breeding, those cultural differences would have died out.

I was talking about the Jewish diaspora, not white people. Jews make up a very small part of the white population.

As for the second point, it does matter in that once brought over to the US, slaves were split up and sold off to different owners and forced to adopt new identities (name, religion, etc) and even have kids taken away from them. Every slave was the property of its owner. Families weren't maintained and so what you end up with is no knowledge of where you come from before slavery.

This is a big contrast from your first point about Roman slaves who, though made up of many different backgrounds, were allowed to maintain their languages, cultures and identities.

Hencredible - I'm enjoying reading your posts here. Nice to have a well-reasoned discussion about this volatile subject without emotions getting in the way. I noticed a lot of guys who otherwise disagree with you are even liking your posts, which is a sign of honest discussion we can all learn from, in my opinion.

I'm curious of your opinion on this though: I personally feel that African Americans have more of a cultural identity than white Americans. This is especially true for low-income whites who have no family legacy.

Most whites have no idea of where they come from (and if they do it's an extremely vague sense) and have largely been conditioned that to identify with each other is bad. I think this lack of cultural identity is one of the reasons you see so many whites start to mimic blacks in dress, behavior, speech, and other mannerisms.

To be sure, our cultural identity wasn't ripped away from us (not all of us anyways) like it was with blacks but dissolved through other means.

That said, I do think quite a few of the cultural ties blacks share in America are built on a foundation of negative associations. I believe this is at least part of the problem with what goes on in the black community. I also think it's one of the reasons why blacks get so impassioned about something like the Trayvon Martin case when race is artificially injected, in contrast to so many lying dormant on the more pressing issues that don't necessarily tap into their sense of cultural identity.

Can you offer thoughts on any of this?

(07-27-2013 10:26 PM)TMC Wrote:  I'm all for solving our issues black people but not with anybody who is not black. That's one of our main issues I believe. We let everyone else into our business and try to tell us why this and that is happening. I don't care about what Bill O' Reilly has to say especially since he has made plenty of past comments that has already let me know he doesn't think too highly of anyone but white people. He did this little rant for ratings and ratings only. I'll pass.

This in particular is a major problem regarding this issue. The "us vs them" attitude. I understand your sentiment but it doesn't help anything. You also have to remember that a lot of issues discussed concerning the black community pinpoint the white man as a cause and involve a lot of finger-pointing and demonizing.

Sorry, but if whites are going to be such a distinct part of your conversation, you might as well get used to us stepping up to the table and offering our own opinions to the discussion. Not to mention that it's the only way you'll ever see change if we truly are the problem.

If we don't learn to do that with an attitude of working together, race relations are simply never going to get better in America.

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #147

(07-28-2013 02:02 AM)Samseau Wrote:  How can someone credibly claim, that on one hand people are racist towards blacks and that this is wrong, and yet on the other hand, state that they do not want to live with them because they are afraid of Blacks or find Blacks undesirable?

Men often live in sin even while knowing the Truth. Or did you miss that lesson in Bible study?

Post: #148

(07-28-2013 03:27 AM)MikeCF Wrote:  

(07-28-2013 02:02 AM)Samseau Wrote:  How can someone credibly claim, that on one hand people are racist towards blacks and that this is wrong, and yet on the other hand, state that they do not want to live with them because they are afraid of Blacks or find Blacks undesirable?

Men often live in sin even while knowing the Truth. Or did you miss that lesson in Bible study?

I also learned not to take moral guidance from a sinner.

Post: #149

If you haven't seen it before, this is an extremely interesting video about the subject of racism and how our identities and prejudices divide us on a psychological level. Highly recommended viewing.





Link in case it goes inactive: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeK759FF84s

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #150

Definitely enjoyed reading these past few pages, props to Hencredible and MikeCF for good posts.

In terms of some of the historical discussions, I have a couple book recommendations to add to what's already been posted:

1)

http://www.amazon.com/White-Gold-Forgott...0340895098

Quote:A mere few centuries ago, both Islam and Christianity, which proclaimed themselves models of righteousness and compassion, were involved in the African slave trade, destroying the lives of millions. The history of the slaves and the slavers has been told many ways since then. Less well known is another form of slavery, the capture of about a million Europeans and Americans by Islamic slave traders, ending only in 1816.

The history of this other trade forms the basis for the particulars in _White Gold: The Extraordinary Story of Thomas Pellow and North Africa's One Million European Slaves_ (Hodder and Stoughton) by Giles Milton. Milton seems to have done prodigious research (as he did for his previous bestseller, _Nathaniel's Nutmeg_), and has done his best to bridge the many gaps in Pellow's own story, producing a narrative that is often exciting and always informative.

I shared a bit more info about the above on this thread too: /thread-26172.html


2)

http://www.amazon.com/King-Leopolds-Ghos...0618001905

Quote:In the 1880s, as the European powers were carving up Africa, King Leopold II of Belgium seized for himself the vast and mostly unexplored territory surrounding the Congo River. Carrying out a genocidal plundering of the Congo, he looted its rubber, brutalized its people, and ultimately slashed its population by ten million--all the while shrewdly cultivating his reputation as a great humanitarian. Heroic efforts to expose these crimes eventually led to the first great human rights movement of the twentieth century, in which everyone from Mark Twain to the Archbishop of Canterbury participated. King Leopold's Ghost is the haunting account of a megalomaniac of monstrous proportions, a man as cunning, charming, and cruel as any of the great Shakespearean villains. It is also the deeply moving portrait of those who fought Leopold: a brave handful of missionaries, travelers, and young idealists who went to Africa for work or adventure and unexpectedly found themselves witnesses to a holocaust.

Adam Hochschild brings this largely untold story alive with the wit and skill of a Barbara Tuchman. Like her, he knows that history often provides a far richer cast of characters than any novelist could invent. Chief among them is Edmund Morel, a young British shipping agent who went on to lead the international crusade against Leopold. Another hero of this tale, the Irish patriot Roger Casement, ended his life on a London gallows. Two courageous black Americans, George Washington Williams and William Sheppard, risked much to bring evidence of the Congo atrocities to the outside world. Sailing into the middle of the story was a young Congo River steamboat officer named Joseph Conrad. And looming above them all, the duplicitous billionaire King Leopold II. With great power and compassion, King Leopold's Ghost will brand the tragedy of the Congo--too long forgotten--onto the conscience of the West.