Post: #101

(07-31-2013 09:06 AM)Moreless Wrote:  Why would I run around a hospital working my ass off troubleshooting complex problems all day when I could sack groceries and make the same. Hell, at least I'd be outside some of the day.

You wage/salary would go up, inflation would take place. Look at Norway, minimum wage is $25 an hour and they're doing great. Finland and Sweden hold up pretty well even though they are taxed a lot...great schools, low inequality. Someone should bring Vicious into the discussion.

(07-31-2013 09:14 AM)Hotwheels Wrote:  Kick every illegal out of the country and wages will go up.

When the recession took place and INS was doing raids every once in a while fruit growers were short of workers. They took out ads trying to hire workers but Americans were not willing to work for minimum wage 12-16 hours in the sun without health benefits. Some applied for work, but many left the first day as the work was too much for them.

So fruit growers were left with a worker shortage because they couldn't find any workers. Wages haven't gone up and will not, the margin is already too normal.

(07-31-2013 11:46 AM)NY Digital Wrote:  ^^ Exactly. And all the BS about how they refuse to learn English... dumb. Complete refusal to integrate into our culture, and it's rewarded.

My brother's best friend has a B.S. in Computer Science but has been doing Construction for the last 6 years here in America. Law-abiding citizen. Good guy that is smart and has his head on his shoulders. But he can't get citizenship at this point. So he won't be able to get a Computer Science job.It's retarded.

A citizen that can't get citizenship, how does that work?

Businesses are motivated to offer services in Spanish....money comes before patriotism and if speaking Spanish increases the margin, then so be it. However, learning and speaking passable English should be a requirement for residency.

Too many people bring their families who don't bring any skills to the country and further depress construction wages. Is your bro's bff an american? There are jobs if he's willing to work like an H1B, cheap salary and plenty of work. If he's really good, he can get a good salary and go home at 5, I know HB1s who work 40/wk and earn 70-100K. H1Bs depress wages.

(07-31-2013 08:35 PM)Samseau Wrote:  That's why I teach other students how to scam the system

What's your opinion on taking community college courses to keep put loans into forbearance? One only needs 6 hours and it costs 120-160 a semester, 600 a year. It freezes loans and you learn something. Time to learn programming, cooking, brush up on math.
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My issue is not with "wage workers should do better, they want to mooch off from one's profits!" but rather companies are passing their salary gap burden to taxpayers, so long-story short...we are providing welfare for companies.

Pay workers 7.75, let the government (taxpayers) pay them X amount via welfare, and lets keep a nice profit. If businesses want to do this, they should be taxed for they cost that we have to pitch in.

Welfare went from being assistance to the needy to a business-model for businesses and some citizens.

Some of the "poor" descriptions by are incorrect. They don't have many entertainment options since they have no income to spend. It's "food or gas/bus ticket" every day or rent every month. There's more food/housing insecurity than before. Poor people usually owe money to multiple people due to living from payday to payday. If you got enough to spend on redbox, you're not that poor.

Post: #102

cattle rustler, yeah he's an American who cant.get citizenship....seriously?

he has a degree in computer science...

law abiding citizen was a figure of speech. if you actually read my post you would see he's been ere for 6 years...

Post: #103

(08-01-2013 03:40 AM)Cattle Rustler Wrote:  

(07-31-2013 09:06 AM)Moreless Wrote:  Why would I run around a hospital working my ass off troubleshooting complex problems all day when I could sack groceries and make the same. Hell, at least I'd be outside some of the day.

You wage/salary would go up, inflation would take place. Look at Norway, minimum wage is $25 an hour and they're doing great. Finland and Sweden hold up pretty well even though they are taxed a lot...great schools, low inequality. Someone should bring Vicious into the discussion.

(07-31-2013 09:14 AM)Hotwheels Wrote:  Kick every illegal out of the country and wages will go up.

When the recession took place and INS was doing raids every once in a while fruit growers were short of workers. They took out ads trying to hire workers but Americans were not willing to work for minimum wage 12-16 hours in the sun without health benefits. Some applied for work, but many left the first day as the work was too much for them.

So fruit growers were left with a worker shortage because they couldn't find any workers. Wages haven't gone up and will not, the margin is already too normal.

You contradict yourself with the above to statements.

Also, I said wages will go up if you kick out the illegals. You said Americans won't work in a field for minimum wage.

They will for more than minimum wage.

Post: #104

(07-31-2013 09:06 AM)Moreless Wrote:  

(07-30-2013 10:08 PM)Anon-A-Moose Wrote:  

(07-30-2013 09:37 PM)Parlay44 Wrote:  Moreless, the problem is that labor is a commodity. Corporations control the price of food and everything else. I laugh when I see job postings that say "We offer a Competitive Salary". Yeah competitively low as you can get away with.

That's why unions are so important to the regular blue-collar guy. They keep corporations from enslaving working people at a "minimum wage".

They don't give a fuck about you. They'll work you to death and replace you once you break. Why do you think corporate job turner over is 2-3 years? Because they're required to give people a small (3-5%) cost of living raise every year to offset inflation. After 3 years they figure they're over paying you and increase your workload and pressure you to work longer hours. That's their MO.

Most people quit. Others get laid off. Then they hire recent grads for cheap and the cycle repeats.

You said it perfectly. Kudos to you.

It sounds like you are in favor of them making more money. I'm not because I feel that I have worked hard getting to where I am. Is this beta :X

I started out sacking groceries at minimum wage. If they were going to pay me $15 to do that I would have probably stayed at that store for a few years and lost a lot of ambition to do something more (assuming inflation never kicked in). Why would I run around a hospital working my ass off troubleshooting complex problems all day when I could sack groceries and make the same. Hell, at least I'd be outside some of the day.

I am. The problem is not the minimum wage. It's the minimum wage relative to the cost of living. If you could work 40 hours and support yourself in a studio apartment, have food, clothing, healthcare and cheap car then fine. But that's not the case. You would need 2 adults sharing a living space and both working 80 hours a week at minimum wage just to scrape by. I don't know what you call it but I call it slavery. It's not a minimum wage. It's a slave wage.

Post: #105

(08-01-2013 04:16 PM)Parlay44 Wrote:  The problem is not the minimum wage. It's the minimum wage relative to the cost of living. If you could work 40 hours and support yourself in a studio apartment, have food, clothing, healthcare and cheap car then fine. But that's not the case. You would need 2 adults sharing a living space and both working 80 hours a week at minimum wage just to scrape by. I don't know what you call it but I call it slavery. It's not a minimum wage. It's a slave wage.

Not quite slavery, but close. But I would like to emphasize that minimum wage is not always about owing people anything or that anyone deserves to be paid a certain amount.

It's about the society and economy you want to live in. It's about thwarting the growth of slums, ghettos, and other civilization rot that accompanies poverty.

Post: #106

I still haven't seen anyone explain how exactly raising the minimum wage makes the poor better off. Unless someone has figured out how to change human nature (i.e. economic forces) then raising the minimum wage HURTS the poor.

I see a bunch of haters hating on CEOs but no one explaining how hating on CEOs will help the poor. I see haters trying to shame those who oppose economic restrictionism by pointing out that we don't earn near as much as CEOs, but no one explaining why we should hate people who earn more than us.

I grew up in a housing project in the poorest neighborhood in the US. I've worked my way up because good Americans have fought against the type of economic restrictions that minimum wage supporters want. You bleeding heart leftists claim you care about the poor but you patronize us and treat us like children. Fuck you very much. We don't need your "help". Your policies would cripple our economy and destroy the opportunities that allowed me to escape from poverty.

Post: #107

(08-01-2013 05:31 PM)ElBorrachoInfamoso Wrote:  I still haven't seen anyone explain how exactly raising the minimum wage makes the poor better off. Unless someone has figured out how to change human nature (i.e. economic forces) then raising the minimum wage HURTS the poor.

Before the industrial revolution most people were farmers. It didn't matter if your IQ was 70 or 700. With a 5th grade education and some hard work you could plow your fields, make a living and have a large family.

What industrialization did is move labor from the farms to the factories. You don't need big muscles to survive in today's inviroment but you do need intelligence. Capitalism keeps dumb people poor and smart people rich. With the few exceptional cases such as inherited wealth. And you have the law and police to keep it that way.

In modern times dumb people are kept poor and poor people are kept dumb while at the same time you're shown endless images of material possessions and a lifestyle that they will never have. This is the basis for crime, drug dealing and resentment of authority in general. Do you see the problem? You'll never get rid of poverty but you can give them a few extra bucks to ease their suffering.

Post: #108

(08-01-2013 06:04 PM)Parlay44 Wrote:  In modern times dumb people are kept poor and poor people are kept dumb while at the same time you're shown endless images of material possessions and a lifestyle that they will never have. This is the basis for crime, drug dealing and resentment of authority in general. Do you see the problem? You'll never get rid of poverty but you can give them a few extra bucks to ease their suffering.

Kings of the past would be jealous of the knowledge we have and how readily available it is. I can walk down the road to the local community college library and have FREE internet access to research and learn whatever I want.

If I don't know how to do something I can teach myself by watching a YouTube video on the subject in a matter of minutes.

The information for "poor" "dumb" people is here and accessible. The problem is that many people refuse to learn to fish for themselves because they have everything handed them, making them lazy. Or they have to much pride to admit they don't know how to do something and won't seek "help."

Post: #109

(07-31-2013 09:06 AM)Moreless Wrote:  

(07-30-2013 10:08 PM)Anon-A-Moose Wrote:  

(07-30-2013 09:37 PM)Parlay44 Wrote:  Moreless, the problem is that labor is a commodity. Corporations control the price of food and everything else. I laugh when I see job postings that say "We offer a Competitive Salary". Yeah competitively low as you can get away with.

That's why unions are so important to the regular blue-collar guy. They keep corporations from enslaving working people at a "minimum wage".

They don't give a fuck about you. They'll work you to death and replace you once you break. Why do you think corporate job turner over is 2-3 years? Because they're required to give people a small (3-5%) cost of living raise every year to offset inflation. After 3 years they figure they're over paying you and increase your workload and pressure you to work longer hours. That's their MO.

Most people quit. Others get laid off. Then they hire recent grads for cheap and the cycle repeats.

You said it perfectly. Kudos to you.

It sounds like you are in favor of them making more money. I'm not because I feel that I have worked hard getting to where I am. Is this beta :X

I started out sacking groceries at minimum wage. If they were going to pay me $15 to do that I would have probably stayed at that store for a few years and lost a lot of ambition to do something more (assuming inflation never kicked in). Why would I run around a hospital working my ass off troubleshooting complex problems all day when I could sack groceries and make the same. Hell, at least I'd be outside some of the day.

Speak for yourself, I'd rather be at a hospital doing shit than sacking groceries. If you were paid $15 for that, you'd make more at a hospital anyway, by the feature of the market forces involved.
Here's the problem, though. 1.) not everyone can work at a hospital doing your job. Some people don't have money for the education or aren't simply capable. 2.) if everyone COULD simply move up like this, nobody would do these menial jobs. 3.) you fail to realize that you're now paying for their life, not McDonalds. Everyone NEEDS a roof over their head, heat, food, running water, and a way to improve their situation. That $8/hr difference comes directly from YOU.

I have worked at crappy jobs while unable to pursue something greater, due to factors outside of my control. There is a difference between facing 3 years of a crap job in your parents' home, and facing a lifetime of it on your own. Poverty is a trap, and when you're stuck, it is often impossible to get out. When you are desperate, socially-unacceptable behavior becomes acceptable.

It is a world you do not know, you cannot imagine, and it is a fate worse than death. You are a slave for who you work for, until they kick you to the curb. You live in filth, against your will, without another option, and are shunned by society. You are out of the loop, entirely. You live with the reality that even having a roof over your head is "questionable", that you may die in a few months from a few missed paychecks, that if you get sick it may kill you because you cannot afford treatment and if you do take it, the financial burden will mean you wind up homeless and die anyway. You will probably starve. You do not matter. There is usually no escape except crime or death for those trapped in it. I moved back into an emotionally abusive household where my family constantly threatens to throw me out over any possible trivial percieved slight when I cannot support myself, to escape poverty, and consider that to be "lucky".

America is not a meritocracy. Working hard does NOT get you into the middle class. Working so hard you're killing yourself while in poverty just keeps you alive another few days. That's if you can even get the work. This "meritocracy" is a laughable misconception. It only exists in theory for the middle and upper class. Not the poor.




^relevant shit

Post: #110

(08-01-2013 05:31 PM)ElBorrachoInfamoso Wrote:  I still haven't seen anyone explain how exactly raising the minimum wage makes the poor better off. Unless someone has figured out how to change human nature (i.e. economic forces) then raising the minimum wage HURTS the poor.

...because they won't be poor then, and can afford to take the steps to pursue a proper lifestyle...?

Post: #111

Price floors such as the minimum wage decrease the number of transactions that take place i.e. the minimum wage INCREASES unemployment among the poor. Even though some poor people are better off because they get a raise, the average poor person is worse off because so many of them are out of work.

No one has explained how to raise the minimum wage without increasing unemployment and causing a net loss to the poor.

Post: #112

ElBorrachoInfamoso Wrote:I still haven't seen anyone explain how exactly raising the minimum wage makes the poor better off.

Although I'm sure many people believe in it, I don't think the point is to make the poor better off the point is to make society as a whole better off by constraining low-end economic growth.

Post: #113

(08-01-2013 03:40 AM)Cattle Rustler Wrote:  A citizen that can't get citizenship, how does that work?

Heh, Seattle has instructed government employees to stop using the term 'citizen' because of confusion like this: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/08/...-language/

In this thread, NY digital used the term "citizen" in the phrase "law-abiding citizen", a common idiom implying a person who follows the rules and probably has some level of civic engagement without specifically referring to legal naturalization status. Meanwhile he also referred to official citizenship.

You should be able to derive that from context.

Post: #114

(08-01-2013 11:57 PM)Moreless Wrote:  

(08-01-2013 06:04 PM)Parlay44 Wrote:  In modern times dumb people are kept poor and poor people are kept dumb while at the same time you're shown endless images of material possessions and a lifestyle that they will never have. This is the basis for crime, drug dealing and resentment of authority in general. Do you see the problem? You'll never get rid of poverty but you can give them a few extra bucks to ease their suffering.

Kings of the past would be jealous of the knowledge we have and how readily available it is. I can walk down the road to the local community college library and have FREE internet access to research and learn whatever I want.

I really dislike this type of thinking. Victor Hanson Davis over at the National Review loves going on about how the poor in the United States don't have it so bad since they can afford flat screen TV's and cable television. What horseshit. Fancy electronics don't compensate for working a demeaning (and possibly stressful or backbreaking) job that doesn't offer any security or allows you to save/invest. Yes, the Kings of the past may have lacked our fancy electronics or modern medicine, but they still lived like Kings and had lives of leisure and the thrills of having power.

Post: #115

^^^ BUSTED !!!

btw it's Victor Davis Hanson

Post: #116

How is society better off if people can't find employment below a certain wage? I don't understand. This policy makes the average person, poor or not, worse off. What's the reasoning for expecting the opposite? Where is the data?

Post: #117

(08-02-2013 04:51 AM)ElBorrachoInfamoso Wrote:  Price floors such as the minimum wage decrease the number of transactions that take place i.e. the minimum wage INCREASES unemployment among the poor. Even though some poor people are better off because they get a raise, the average poor person is worse off because so many of them are out of work.

No one has explained how to raise the minimum wage without increasing unemployment and causing a net loss to the poor.

Offset minimum wage increases by tax reductions. This way the government can reduce taxes, increase the earnings of poorer members of society and not increase unemployment.

This also reduces government expenditure because the benefits/support you need to pay these people decreases as their earnings improve.

Post: #118

(07-31-2013 09:32 PM)TheSlayer Wrote:  Good points but the middle class has been hammered in the US and Canada in the last few years and especially since the financial meltdown of 2008. Manufacturing jobs have disappeared and are probably never coming back.

Why do people keep repeating this? Do you work in manufacturing? The light industry technologies are already here - 'pennies' per hour 3rd world labor can't compete with inexpensive robots that can work 24/7 shifts.

Arduino:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEUGbagf5-4

3D printing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6B8WgTOv_A‎

2nd Industrial Revolution
http://www.economist.com/node/18114221

Post: #119

(08-02-2013 11:35 PM)PoosyWrecker Wrote:  

(07-31-2013 09:32 PM)TheSlayer Wrote:  Good points but the middle class has been hammered in the US and Canada in the last few years and especially since the financial meltdown of 2008. Manufacturing jobs have disappeared and are probably never coming back.

Why do people keep repeating this? Do you work in manufacturing? The light industry technologies are already here - 'pennies' per hour 3rd world labor can't compete with inexpensive robots that can work 24/7 shifts.

Arduino:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEUGbagf5-4

3D printing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6B8WgTOv_A‎

2nd Industrial Revolution
http://www.economist.com/node/18114221

People keep repeating this because it is true. No, I don't work in manufacturing but I do keep abreast of economic and political developments. I am not sure why you asked that question. I also live in Ontario which has been hit particularly hard with losses in manufacturing and that is one of the main reasons why economic recovery in Canada has been so slow. Those jobs are not coming back.

Manufacturing Jobs: Ontario's Decade-Long Job Decline Led By Factory sector

From the article:

Quote:Statistics Canada puts the manufacturing job losses in Ontario at 255,000 over the past decade, dropping the number of factory employees from 908,900 in January 2003 to 654,200 in September 2012.

Another article which does a breakdown of the jobs lost and the industries most hard hit:

There Are Jobs In Canada’s Manufacturing Industry. Really.

Quote:Over the last 10 years, Canada’s high-level manufacturing industry (NAICS 31-33) has declined precipitously, shedding a catastrophic 439,000 jobs. That’s almost a quarter of the industry’s entire workforce.

Quote:There are a few main culprits; these are the five fastest-declining manufacturing sectors in Canada:

Cut and sew clothing manufacturing – 43,774 jobs lost, 72% of the industry
Motor vehicle parts manufacturing – 32,460 jobs lost, 34%
Household furniture and kitchen cabinet manufacturing – 24,158 jobs lost, 38%
Plastic product manufacturing – 18,494 jobs lost, 19%
Motor vehicle manufacturing – 14,845 jobs lost, 29%

Quote:So, it’s not surprising to see some similarity between the subsectors of the manufacturing industry that fared the worst in Ontario and in Canada as a whole:

Motor vehicle parts manufacturing – 29,325 jobs lost, 34%
Plastic product manufacturing – 16,092, 28%
Motor vehicle manufacturing – 11,828, 26%
Cut and sew clothing manufacturing – 11,198, 73%
Iron and steel mills and ferro-alloy manufacturing – 9,254, 42%

Quote:Quebec and British Columbia – the number two and three provinces for manufacturing – lost jobs at similar rates: 25% in Quebec and 16% in British Columbia. There, too, cut and sew clothing manufacturing was suffering (down 71% in Quebec and 68% in BC).

The title of the article may sound misleading but it is mostly because job losses have begun to "round-off" for now.

By the way, regarding your point, I do know that some manufacturing jobs are coming back but not at the level and the speed with which they were lost. Fact is, a few niche manufacturing industries which can be automated or are based on cutting edge technologies will return but the vast majority of the jobs lost in vehicle manufacturing, cloth manufacturing, and plastic product manufacturing etc. are never returning.

Am I still wrong in saying what I said? Let me know when Western MNCs start closing their factories in export processing zones (in Third World Nations) to rush back to the US and Canada. I will be very happy when that happens.

The numbers I posted are only for Canada. Add in the millions of jobs lost in manufacturing in the US, you really need to get real and understand that those jobs are not coming back. Posting a couple of videos and a link about specialized manufacturing doesn't mean that all those jobs or even most of those jobs or even a third of those jobs are coming back. If they were, the economy would be doing a lot better.

Post: #120

Post: #121

(08-03-2013 01:19 AM)TheSlayer Wrote:  vehicle manufacturing, cloth manufacturing, and plastic product manufacturing etc. are never returning.

Am I still wrong in saying what I said? Let me know when Western MNCs start closing their factories in export processing zones (in Third World Nations) to rush back to the US and Canada. I will be very happy when that happens.

The numbers I posted are only for Canada. Add in the millions of jobs lost in manufacturing in the US, you really need to get real and understand that those jobs are not coming back. Posting a couple of videos and a link about specialized manufacturing doesn't mean that all those jobs or even most of those jobs or even a third of those jobs are coming back. If they were, the economy would be doing a lot better.

We don't won't be dependent MNCs because we're going to make the stuff they currently sell us in our suburban garages, our country homes, our city hacker spaces. US-Canada aren't lacking in arable land, resources, energy, infrastructure, human capital, we even have half the worlds fresh water! Disregard your defeatist, socialist education for a minute and take a look at what we're making right now

Plastics : heres a site that sells a bunch of crap that used to be made in China only http://www.shapeways.com/

Vehicles : high performance car locally produced http://localmotors.com/microfactory/

I know we can't build iPhones and Galaxy tabs yet, but the technology improves incrementally just as our economy will as long as politicians don't screw it up.

Post: #122

Yes, shifting tax mandates into a higher minimum wage would absolutely help the poor without lowering employment. If we cut social security taxes and spending and had employers pay that money to employees instead, then the net effect would be beneficial to the poor and society in general.

This idea is definitely not better than giving employers and employees the freedom to negotiate wages while also cutting social security, but it's better than what we have now.

Post: #123

(08-03-2013 06:22 PM)PoosyWrecker Wrote:  We don't won't be dependent MNCs because we're going to make the stuff they currently sell us in our suburban garages, our country homes, our city hacker spaces. US-Canada aren't lacking in arable land, resources, energy, infrastructure, human capital, we even have half the worlds fresh water!

Now you are just talking out of your ass. What you are talking about is at not even close to being a reality right now. We are still many years away from a society where we can manufacture our own goods and I doubt the same powerful MNCs that outsourced manufacturing jobs will allow that to happen (at least not without a hell of a fight). Even if we were able to get to a point where we don’t really rely on MNCs to sell us their manufactured goods, it still doesn’t do anything for the lost manufacturing jobs which was what I pointed out.

Western MNCs haven’t outsourced production because US-Canada are lacking in any of those things you mentioned. The issue is and always will be the wage difference in the US -Canada and hiring people in the Third World. I am not sure what you are struggling to understand with this.

(08-03-2013 06:22 PM)PoosyWrecker Wrote:  Disregard your defeatist, socialist education for a minute and take a look at what we're making right now

On what basis are you calling me my education "defeatist" and "socialist" and by extension me a socialist? This must be a new thing where if people say we have lost manufacturing jobs and those jobs are not coming back, they must be “socialist”. Frankly, it is obvious that you are in need of an education to learn how to read properly and know what the word socialist means. Reread my previous post and you won’t find any socialist or defeatist points in that. Understanding economic realities has nothing to do with the left or the right.

(08-03-2013 06:22 PM)PoosyWrecker Wrote:  Plastics : heres a site that sells a bunch of crap that used to be made in China only http://www.shapeways.com/
Vehicles : high performance car locally produced http://localmotors.com/microfactory/

You keep posting these links which are great but have nothing to do with what I am talking about. Niche manufacturing and manufacturing which is based on cutting edge technologies will always exist and I hope this actually grows but the jobs being added by these types of manufacturing won’t even come close to the number of jobs we have lost.

I am not really even sure what you are arguing or what position you are defending.

Common Sense: We have lost millions of manufacturing jobs which has impacted the middle class the most and those jobs aren’t going to come back.

You: No! No! Look at these few new technologies and companies. You are wrong, we can manufacture this stuff soon in our garages.

Okay, great but that still doesn’t change the economic realities for the middle class if you can make crap in your garage. Once again the point is, the gains from new these types of manufacturing are not going to make up for all those high paying middle class jobs and that’s bad for the economy.

(08-03-2013 06:22 PM)PoosyWrecker Wrote:  I know we can't build iPhones and Galaxy tabs yet, but the technology improves incrementally just as our economy will as long as politicians don't screw it up.

Nobody is arguing this. This is all great but I am not sure why you are arguing with me when there is nothing to debate and resorting to name calling.