Post: #101

Just have a diverse group of friends.

Post: #102

Bang more black chicks

Post: #103

(07-29-2013 11:33 AM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  I'm sure Joshua Packwood would have a thing or two to say about this topic.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/05/16/white.valedictorian/

Is this guy unqualified to speak about the Black experience because he is White?

Post: #104

(07-27-2013 07:25 PM)Samseau Wrote:  Is this guy unqualified to speak about the Black experience because he is White?

That's an interesting question..?

How would we define "qualified"? It's probably impossible.

I think there are situations when are qualified to speak on the experience and evolution of another race. And, of course, there are many more situations when we are not.

It always just depends. Who is speaking and what are they saying..?

Sometimes their insight is valuable/interesting, sometimes it is not.

That recent race thread was really interesting.

Most of the commentators were really good;

MikeCF -- Not many White guys have the balls, heart and experience to discuss these things as openly and honestly as he does. Respect.

I have a lot of respect for the poise and class of Hencredible Casanova. I know its not always easy.

I hope this thread stays open.

We just have to keep it mature and gentlemanly and not let it deteriorate into a juvenile shouting match.

If we can't discuss race here, then we are not as civilized as we think. We should be able to do it, I say. If you are racist, you should at least be able to present your case without getting emotional.

If you disagree with a guy, simply "agree to disagree" or ignore the thread.

These conversations are tough but if we never have them , I think that makes us cowards..

Just have a little class -- or, stay out of the thread.

Thats my opinion. Now, I'm sure this thread will be closed soon!

Post: #105

IMHO race is not something even RVF'rs are ready to discuss openly.

Still too much trolling and haterade. Shows how strong race is though, even with a group of smart dudes still turns into shit shows.

Post: #106

Haha until the whole 'Hispanic' thing is spoken about openly we're getting nowhere. White conservatives on the forum won't listen to myself and speakeasy's arguments about Hispanic/Latino not being a race, just as liberals on the forum won't listen to the same 'argument', but for different reason. White America isn't going anywhere, it's just that some of those white people are going to have 'exotic' sounding names. The fact that this forum, despite all the conversations, still has 'Hispanic' as a racial category shows how ridiculous race issues are in the U.S. Make a 'Mestizo' category at least!

Post: #107

(07-29-2013 04:21 PM)Teedub Wrote:  Haha until the whole 'Hispanic' thing is spoken about openly we're getting nowhere. White conservatives on the forum won't listen to myself and speakeasy's arguments about Hispanic/Latino not being a race, just as liberals on the forum won't listen to the same 'argument', but for different reason. White America isn't going anywhere, it's just that some of those white people are going to have 'exotic' sounding names. The fact that this forum, despite all the conversations, still has 'Hispanic' as a racial category shows how ridiculous race issues are in the U.S. Make a 'Mestizo' category at least!

So if Hispanic isn't a race how come when I google that word I get these sites:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanic <--- A wikipedia page

http://www.hsf.net/ <--- A national scholarship fund

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hispanic <--- Definitions in popular dictionaries

http://www.loc.gov/rr/hispanic/ <--- The libary of congress's own website for the section of the library dedicated to hispanics

http://www.pewhispanic.org/ <--- Major think tanks who classify others as hispanics

http://isites.harvard.edu/icb/icb.do?keyword=k71111 <--- A harvard journal dedicated to hispanics

And that's just the first page!

Post: #108

Post: #109

(07-29-2013 02:18 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  [...]

I hope this thread stays open. [...]

Post: #110

(07-29-2013 04:21 PM)Teedub Wrote:  Haha until the whole 'Hispanic' thing is spoken about openly we're getting nowhere. White conservatives on the forum won't listen to myself and speakeasy's arguments about Hispanic/Latino not being a race, just as liberals on the forum won't listen to the same 'argument', but for different reason. White America isn't going anywhere, it's just that some of those white people are going to have 'exotic' sounding names. The fact that this forum, despite all the conversations, still has 'Hispanic' as a racial category shows how ridiculous race issues are in the U.S. Make a 'Mestizo' category at least!

This is just a linguistic ambiguity. There is a distinct ethnic and cultural divide in the US and if you spend much time here it is obvious to see. "Hispanic" is just a convenient umbrella term for the diverse minority groups share many common differences with the white majority, in the same way that "Asian" describes a variety of east-Asian races who also share common differences. HBD purists care about the genetic backgrounds but that's not what the term "Hispanic" is really used for.

Post: #111

(07-29-2013 05:01 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

(07-29-2013 04:21 PM)Teedub Wrote:  Haha until the whole 'Hispanic' thing is spoken about openly we're getting nowhere. White conservatives on the forum won't listen to myself and speakeasy's arguments about Hispanic/Latino not being a race, just as liberals on the forum won't listen to the same 'argument', but for different reason. White America isn't going anywhere, it's just that some of those white people are going to have 'exotic' sounding names. The fact that this forum, despite all the conversations, still has 'Hispanic' as a racial category shows how ridiculous race issues are in the U.S. Make a 'Mestizo' category at least!

So if Hispanic isn't a race how come when I google that word I get these sites:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanic <--- A wikipedia page

http://www.hsf.net/ <--- A national scholarship fund

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hispanic <--- Definitions in popular dictionaries

http://www.loc.gov/rr/hispanic/ <--- The libary of congress's own website for the section of the library dedicated to hispanics

http://www.pewhispanic.org/ <--- Major think tanks who classify others as hispanics

http://isites.harvard.edu/icb/icb.do?keyword=k71111 <--- A harvard journal dedicated to hispanics

And that's just the first page!

Because it's become almost a quasi-race IN AMERICA, nowhere else uses it. Not in South America even, likewise Latino. There are black latinos, white latinos etc. I do get it to an extent, 'Hispanic' means mestizo. Someone visibly mestizo.

Furthermore, from one of your own links:

Quote: Today, organizations in the United States use the term as a broad catch all to refer to persons with a historical and cultural relationship either with Spain and Portugal or only with Spain, regardless of race. However, in the eyes of the US Census Bureau, Hispanics or Latinos can be of any race, any ancestry, any ethnicity, or any country of origin. Due to the technical distinctions involved in defining "race" vs. "ethnicity," there is confusion among the general population about the designation of Hispanic identity.

If it was indeed a race, then Brazil would use it, surely? Brazil is the most racially diverse country in Latin America, yet nowhere in it's racial categories do I see "Hispanic". Moreover, without trying to be a dick, a lot of Americans are poorly informed about the world outside of America (geography etc), hell, a lot of them are poorly informed about things inside America, but it's a continent-sized country, so there are some discrepancies there. I mean, when senior figures and public figures in America, John McCain for example, think Spain is some rogue state in South America...the picture becomes clearer! Some other examples of public figures making similar gaffes are:

Jessica Alba: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tBTqgeMZ0s

Mariah Carey: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3EBDD1VjBc

And make sure you read the comments sections!

Post: #112

An Idea: Say you're not white but an even more oppressed minority.

In my case it's true.
You've never been bombed because you're black? I've been bombed for being Serb! There is a knife called Serb cutter, for Chrissakes. Is there a weapon to be used solely for negro slaughter? Thought so.

If you find an even more oppressed nation than Serbs, feel free to use that one.

Post: #113

(07-30-2013 03:25 AM)Teedub Wrote:  

(07-29-2013 05:01 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

(07-29-2013 04:21 PM)Teedub Wrote:  Haha until the whole 'Hispanic' thing is spoken about openly we're getting nowhere. White conservatives on the forum won't listen to myself and speakeasy's arguments about Hispanic/Latino not being a race, just as liberals on the forum won't listen to the same 'argument', but for different reason. White America isn't going anywhere, it's just that some of those white people are going to have 'exotic' sounding names. The fact that this forum, despite all the conversations, still has 'Hispanic' as a racial category shows how ridiculous race issues are in the U.S. Make a 'Mestizo' category at least!

So if Hispanic isn't a race how come when I google that word I get these sites:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanic <--- A wikipedia page

http://www.hsf.net/ <--- A national scholarship fund

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hispanic <--- Definitions in popular dictionaries

http://www.loc.gov/rr/hispanic/ <--- The libary of congress's own website for the section of the library dedicated to hispanics

http://www.pewhispanic.org/ <--- Major think tanks who classify others as hispanics

http://isites.harvard.edu/icb/icb.do?keyword=k71111 <--- A harvard journal dedicated to hispanics

And that's just the first page!

Because it's become almost a quasi-race IN AMERICA, nowhere else uses it.

So what?

Quote:Not in South America even, likewise Latino. There are black latinos,

Still a latino

Quote: white latinos etc.

Still a latino

Quote:I do get it to an extent, 'Hispanic' means mestizo. Someone visibly mestizo.

You call it tomato, I call it tamato. Same difference.

Quote:Furthermore, from one of your own links:

Quote: Today, organizations in the United States use the term as a broad catch all to refer to persons with a historical and cultural relationship either with Spain and Portugal or only with Spain, regardless of race. However, in the eyes of the US Census Bureau, Hispanics or Latinos can be of any race, any ancestry, any ethnicity, or any country of origin. Due to the technical distinctions involved in defining "race" vs. "ethnicity," there is confusion among the general population about the designation of Hispanic identity.

If it was indeed a race, then Brazil would use it, surely?

They do have hispanics in Brazil. They call them "pardos."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographi...Brazilians

Quote:The Pardos are a mixture of Europeans, Blacks and Amerindians. Brazil does not have a category for multiracial people, but a Pardo (brown) one, which may include caboclos, mulatos, cafuzos (local ethnonyms for people of noticeable mixed White and Amerindian, Black and White, and Amerindian and Black descent i.e. mestizos, mulattoes and zambos, respectively), the multiracial result of their intermixing (despite most of White and Black Brazilians possessing some degree of race-mixing, since brownness in Brazil is a matter of phenotype) and assimilated, westernized indigenous people.

Post: #114

Yeah, but Americans don't do what Brazil does do they? They say someone like Pitbull (who is whiter looking than a lot of actual Spaniards!) and someone like Juan Manuel Marquez are the same race, hispanic. It's nonsense. A "pardo" is someone like Nicole Scherzinger, someone who can't be identified as she's so mixed. Ricky Martin for example, isn't seen as white in America - he's seen as "hispanic", that is madness.

Post: #115

(07-30-2013 04:37 AM)Teedub Wrote:  Yeah, but Americans don't do what Brazil does do they? They say someone like Pitbull (who is whiter looking than a lot of actual Spaniards!) and someone like Juan Manuel Marquez are the same race, hispanic. It's nonsense.

Ah come on man, you can't hold all Americans to the words of a few retarded Americans.

That's like me taking a few drunks outta Ireland and holding the rest of Great Britain to their words...

Post: #116

So what race would you classify the above examples?

Post: #117

Hispanic is not a race. I hate that so many people have this misconception. Hispanic is a cultural and linguistic group and for many of us in North America it's the group of our parents not the group we fit in to. Smart demographers recognize this fact and have the option to indicate Hispanic background independent of race.

Most Hispanics are mestizo, but Caribbean Hispanics have a lot less Amerindian and a lot more African ancestry than central and south Americans.

Caribbeans also have the opposite of the one drop rule. Someone has to look mostly black to be considered black, otherwise they're called something else. In the US, we consider someone black even if they have three white grandparents.

Post: #118

(07-30-2013 04:37 AM)Teedub Wrote:  Yeah, but Americans don't do what Brazil does do they? They say someone like Pitbull (who is whiter looking than a lot of actual Spaniards!) and someone like Juan Manuel Marquez are the same race, hispanic. It's nonsense. A "pardo" is someone like Nicole Scherzinger, someone who can't be identified as she's so mixed. Ricky Martin for example, isn't seen as white in America - he's seen as "hispanic", that is madness.

It's not madness. The term is what it is in the United States because the outward cultural expression as it relates to the majority American culture is what actually matters to the people who live here.

If you were born into a poor neighborhood in Mexico, speak Spanish, live in the US with other Mexicans, blast salsa and Latin pop music at public barbecues, and aren't an obvious SWPL chick going through a latino-fetish phase, nobody is going to care what race your genetic markers say you are.

Note that by your standards, "white" is not even really a race either.

Post: #119

(07-30-2013 05:39 AM)ElBorrachoInfamoso Wrote:  Caribbeans also have the opposite of the one drop rule. Someone has to look mostly black to be considered black, otherwise they're called something else. In the US, we consider someone black even if they have three white grandparents.

This is mostly true but there are exceptions depending on where you are. Especially notable are ancestors of free blacks from the colonial period who integrated into white American culture over a century ago, but also mutts like Tiger Woods. You can express many black physical traits (dark skin, curly hair, etc.) but if you grew up believing you were white and identify with other whites, the majority is likely to accept you as white or at least a minor anomaly.

Post: #120

(07-30-2013 08:31 AM)Blaster Wrote:  

(07-30-2013 04:37 AM)Teedub Wrote:  Yeah, but Americans don't do what Brazil does do they? They say someone like Pitbull (who is whiter looking than a lot of actual Spaniards!) and someone like Juan Manuel Marquez are the same race, hispanic. It's nonsense. A "pardo" is someone like Nicole Scherzinger, someone who can't be identified as she's so mixed. Ricky Martin for example, isn't seen as white in America - he's seen as "hispanic", that is madness.

It's not madness. The term is what it is in the United States because the outward cultural expression as it relates to the majority American culture is what actually matters to the people who live here.

If you were born into a poor neighborhood in Mexico, speak Spanish, live in the US with other Mexicans, blast salsa and Latin pop music at public barbecues, and aren't an obvious SWPL chick going through a latino-fetish phase, nobody is going to care what race your genetic markers say you are.

Note that by your standards, "white" is not even really a race either.

Why is it not a race by my standards? 'White' isn't a race to be honest, you're right in that sense, it's just the lightest version of Caucasian, of which Indians and Pakistanis are also members. However, nobody actually thinks this way obviously.

Anyway, back to point, since Hispanic certainly isn't a race, someone like Pitbull or Ricky Martin should be a White Hispanic, Juan Manuel Marquez a Mestizo Hispanic etc. To claim they're all the same is lazy and to anyone observing from outside the U.S - pretty weird. What you described as being Hispanic, the Latin music and all that stuff could equally be applied to Spaniards, and I think Spaniards would be pretty offended if you said they weren't white! I said it was madness because, as ElBorracho said - and you agreed - if hispanic isn't a race but a cultural identity then Ricky Martin should be hispanic AND white, if you get me?

Post: #121

Quote:To claim they're all the same is lazy and to anyone observing from outside the U.S - pretty weird. What you described as being Hispanic, the Latin music and all that stuff could equally be applied to Spaniards, and I think Spaniards would be pretty offended if you said they weren't white!

Lazy, or practical? The point isn't to avoid offending people the point is to have a term to describe relevant sub-categories of the population. The term is used both by self-identified members of the population and those who use the classification.

Legitimate European Spanish diaspora in the US is a tiny fraction of the Latin American presence (80k vs 52 million). Odds of Spaniards gathering in sufficient numbers to be mistaken for Latin Americans is very slim. And certainly, the closer you look the more you'll find different patterns in the various Hispanic subgroups (starting with the obvious, like Brazilians not even speaking Spanish).

Post: #122

The only way to prove that you aren't a racist is to have sex with her:

Post: #123

How did the different races form?

Did we all start off as the same race?

Are we all related?

I don't think anyone has the answers to these questions..?

Post: #124

(07-30-2013 01:08 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  How did the different races form?

Did we all start off as the same race?

Are we all related?

I don't think anyone has the answers to these questions..?

Does anyone else think it's weird how we classify each other by race even though it's possible to change your lineage from white to black or black to white in just 2 generations?

ex. 1:

Black person + white person = mulatto
Mulatto + white person = white kids

ex. 2:

black person + white person = mulatto
Mulatto + black person = black kids

Why do people classify each other by something so malleable?

Post: #125

(07-30-2013 10:56 AM)Blaster Wrote:  Legitimate European Spanish diaspora in the US is a tiny fraction of the Latin American presence (80k vs 52 million). Odds of Spaniards gathering in sufficient numbers to be mistaken for Latin Americans is very slim. And certainly, the closer you look the more you'll find different patterns in the various Hispanic subgroups (starting with the obvious, like Brazilians not even speaking Spanish).

Yeah, but what about white Latin Americans? Your typical Argentinian would be pretty offended and also confused if you said "Oh, you're not white, you're Latino" or "Hispanic". I'm not sure about white Mexicans, but surely Guillermo Del Toro is seen as white though right?