Post: #1

I get annoyed with race trolling, but I wanted to present a more serious discussion about one of the issues that has arisen from the Zimmerman trial, and countless others in the past. I really hope this doesn't devolve into ad hominems, meltdowns, or more arguments about the trial (we have another thread for that).

I also think this discussion is necessary for our generation of men, since PC culture is only becoming more ingrained.

With hyper sensitive HR policies already in place, it doesn't help that academic departments increasingly make straight, white, Christian males out to be the worst possible individuals (don't even get me started with that cisgender garbage).

I used white in the title since I believe that as a majority, that's the hardest position to defend from, though obviously this could apply to any group. We've seen how extreme people like Adria Richards can be with her tweets like "Black people CANNOT be racist against White people. Racism is a position of the oppressor who has the power"

I think the same way we discuss defense against false rape charges, accusations of sexism and racism will also become more detrimental in the future, even if they are later proven false or have no merit in the first place. I think we do a good service to men here when people share tips on protecting yourself.

(07-15-2013 04:10 PM)PrimeTime Wrote:  Having a black friend doesn't mean you're not racist. One of the reasons Terrance Howard divorced his white wife was because she called him a n***er. There's been plenty of reports of black women married to white men who still call them n***er. Using a I'm not racist because "I have a black friend" excuse is a tired cliche at this point. Shout out to Paula Deen, one of her "most trusted people" was a black dude still doesn't stop her from wanting to dress black people as slaves and calling them n***ers.

I can understand why some people would consider this a tired cliche, as certainly individuals can hold negative general views on race, ethnicity, etc. and make exceptions for those close to them.

I am white, and I have close friends from all different backgrounds. I'm fortunate that my parents raised me in a very open and accepting household. I have also dated girls from a variety of backgrounds.

But there's a bigger question here...

How does a white person in North America prove that they are not racist?

At what point do you have enough evidence? Friends, relatives, relationships, charitable donations, support of minority businesses, festivals, etc. where does it end?

We all know it's easy to play the race card, and certainly sometimes it's warranted, but it's an asymmetric attack since defending yourself from charges of racism is next to impossible.

It seems like it's easier to defend against sexism and other "isms" compared to race, but I could have just as easily put in a different one. Along those same lines, feminists are working to make "misogynist' the new race card, since they see how effective it is in stirring up feelings in place of facts.

I'm talking philosophically here, but also asking for practical examples or suggestions.

I've never had a problem with this, so I can't speak from experience, but obviously it's important to break down these types of issues.

Post: #2

This is similar to asking "How can a man in America prove he's not a potential rapist and an evil chauvinist?"
You can't.

Post: #3

You really can't win. If you are speak the truth about what you see in front of you as you would with any other people, you are called a racist. If you supplicate and pretend that a black person can never do wrong you are accused of white privilege and being a secret racist. Or harboring innate, subconscious racism.

Growing up in an all-white community we were merciless to the poor white trash and their idiocy, illegitimacy, smell, clothing, etc. But if you say the same thing about the ghetto - racist.

Post: #4

Avoid making unambiguously racist comments. That goes for everyone, as far as I'm concerned.

Post: #5

This is a site about gaming, travelling and being a better man.

WTF does this thread have to do with anything.

Post: #6

Post: #7

Never speak about race or race issues publicly.

My real answer though: Who cares. In any event, the people you'd be trying to 'prove' this to would be naturally devoid of logic and probably accused you under pretenses in which they were biased themselves but don't acknowledge it. A man really shouldn't feel the need to prove anything to anyone. Much less, something to someone that won't result in any more than a judgmental and/or politically correct person's 'acceptance'.

This sounds like the ultimate waste of time.

Post: #8

(07-15-2013 08:13 PM)Wadsworth Wrote:  Avoid making unambiguously racist comments. That goes for everyone, as far as I'm concerned.

^that

also

The best defense is a good offense. An accusation of racism sounds like a shit test. If you get defensive and pull the "I have X friends who're black," you're already guilty for providing a cliche excuse. How about reframe and ask "why are you so obsessed with racism" or "do you think being anal about political correctness makes you holier than thou," etc etc?

Not sure how you would handle it in a work environment with HR whores or supervisors, though. Perhaps just avoid answering their questions / ask why they feel that way.

But yeah, don't kick the hornet's nest and it shouldn't come up.

Post: #9

If someone finds racism in a statement, they're guilty of stereotyping (which does have its place, but most people can't seem to comprehend the line between simple observation or where it becomes prejudice). In all honesty, western society has no idea how to deal with race "issues," so you're better off just ignoring whoever is making big claims.

Post: #10

Be actively involved in things that help ethnic communities or aim towards creating a more equal society AKA make some kind of real sacrifice in your life. That is if you really care, by just being passive you are still benefitting from the actions committed by other white people that are helping you as a white person right now. If you care about this imbalance in your society then do something about it, if not then deal with being called 'racist'. Racism is a spectrum and on the one end it is obvious and malicious and on the other end it is subtle and even friendly (institutional).

Another thing is that white people have a whole arsenal of racial slurs for every ethnicity that can have detrimental effect , but words like 'honky' and 'cracker' are meaningless. So calling you racist is ideal, because 1. It's politically correct 2. You will feel something (guilt/confusion) when it is said

Also some people will always think you are racist no matter what

Post: #11

(07-15-2013 08:18 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  This is a site about gaming, travelling and being a better man.

WTF does this thread have to do with anything.

I explained why it's relevant in the post itself.

The way things are going now, Red Pill concepts will also become even more taboo.

Part of being a better man is having a greater understanding of the world, it's contradictions, and how to navigate that to avoid potential problems.

I'm not trying to race bait here either, a lot of my other posts focus on game, masculinity or travel.

Post: #12

I usually have three words for people who talk about racism in this general fashion: "Go Fuck Yourself". It works quite well because if you're going to cry about me making a joke, I don't want to be around a thin-skinned bitch anyway. Calling out outright discrimination, I can definitely understand and support, but actually thinking about whether I am or am not racist just because of my European heritage? Yeah, no... I just refuse to care. Call me ignorant if you will but the proper term would more likely be apathetic.

Post: #13

Everyone is racist to some degree whether they admit it or not. You will always have some form of stereotypes and racial bias running through your head, the difference is in how you act upon it.

Post: #14

Post: #15

Uh, these race threads always devolve into a shit throwing fest.

The fact is there is racism on all sides, and only focusing on white racism is self-serving and ignorant at best.

Post: #16

(07-15-2013 08:46 PM)The Texas Prophet Wrote:  Uh, these race threads always devolve into a shit throwing fest.

The fact is there is racism on all sides, and only focusing on white racism is self-serving and ignorant at best.

Yeah I clarified that here:

Quote:I used white in the title since I believe that as a majority, that's the hardest position to defend from, though obviously this could apply to any group.

Like I said, I hope this thread doesn't devolve into a mess.

I was on the fence about posting this, but another example I saw a while back was when Ben Stein accused Ron Paul of anti-semitism, purely because he had a non-mainstream view on Israel's relationship with the United States.

Perhaps I should have used sexist instead of racist, but either way, I'm glad there's some discussion on the topic.

Post: #17

It's impossible to logically negate an argument for which no absolute, concrete evidence can be presented. In this case, that means that it's impossible to prove that you aren't a racist, because even if you undertook an entire lifetime of anti-racist work and were the least racist person possible, you could still be secretly harboring racist feelings. And you could never prove otherwise.

For another example, I could accuse anyone on the forum of being gay. It would be impossible to disprove. Even if the person had sex with multiple women right in front of me, I could say, "That just means you're secretly gay." And logically, that is true. You cannot prove otherwise no matter what you do or say.

It's an impossible situation. You're trying to "prove" that you do not think a certain way, yet there is no way you can ever offer conclusive proof of what goes on inside your own mind, because the only way we have to judge the interior of a person's mind is by their exterior behavior, and as we all know, our actions do not always follow our thinking.

From a practical standpoint, the closest you could probably come to convincing people beyond a shadow of the doubt that you weren't racist would be marrying a black woman and having children with her. Of course, that's obviously an awful lot to ask of a man just to give him credibility as a non-racist. But even then, during the divorce she would probably claim that you were racist to screw you out of more money

Post: #18

Just as a side note, accusing you of being racist, on account of you being a white American, is straight up racism. Just sayin'

Also, @scorpion: I'm pretty sure that gay guys don't get boners over women to bang them with...

Post: #19

I see the complete and total spread of the victimization-industrial complex is now complete. We are completely thought the rabbit hole.

Post: #20

(07-15-2013 08:07 PM)Ziltoid Wrote:  This is similar to asking "How can a man in America prove he's not a potential rapist and an evil chauvinist?"
You can't.

Yeah that's my thinking too, but I wanted to hear other people's views.

And once again, comedy is ahead of the curve on predicting the potential rapist views by feminists:





And this is good too:

Post: #21

Support Zimmerman: You're a racist.

Support Martin: White guilt.

No-win scenario.

Post: #22

Like Scorpion, I believe there is nothing you can do to prove you aren't racist.

Whether you believe that or not, I think what you really are trying to accomplish here is to avoid the harm that comes from being called or seen as a racist. In the US, this is hard to do.

Here's my advice:

1. Don't talk about race issues with members of other races unless they talk about those issues first.
2. If the members of the other race stop being reasonable in said conversation, stop talking about race with them (or stop talking to them if they won't shut up about it).
3. Don't apologize for being white or express guilt on behalf of other white people who commit crimes against other races.
4. Find (white) friends who feel the same way you do.
5. Enjoy your life as normal.

Wald

P.S. I try not to talk about race anywhere on the internet - no matter how good your logic, it never ends well. Better to pick other battles than waste your energy on ones over race.

Post: #23

I was going to ignore this thread but I'll give a terse but serious answer.

Asking someone to prove they aren't a racist is like asking someone to prove they aren't an asshole. It's impossible to ever prove such things so it's worthless to even ask. I don't believe there's such a thing as a 100% racism free person. There are of course many people who have low enough levels of racist sentiment that they can tolerate and live in harmony with other races. Just like all women have some bitch in them somewhere, even the sweet ones, and it will come out if you know them long enough.

The main problem with racism though isn't the occasional guy that gives a hard glance at an interracial couple, it's the institutional racism which will punish some in the justice system more harshly than others, for example.

I would never ask a white to prove they are not racist to me as I don't really care. If they're actually hanging with me and treat me with respect I'll leave it at that.

Post: #24

Short answer: You cannot prove it.

...but don't worry about proving it because neither can the other races.

Post: #25

This thread is weird, a lot of people caring about being perceived as racist in the face of the law or by their peers, but not about racism actually existing in their society. Can you not see how one could influence the other...?