Post: #1

link here

A 43yr old woman who had recently lost 100lbs was asked to put on more clothes at a community water park. She refused and was asked to leave but would not. Later, the police were called and she was removed. She says she was discriminated against. Pool manager said that because it was a community pool where little kids are at here attire was inappopriate. Thoughts?

Her quote:
'I just felt like I was singled out,' Sheaffer told 41Action News. 'I felt like it was both age and body discrimination and I felt like I could look around me and I could see a handful of other girls half my age, wearing the same size swimming suit and not being singled out and told to put on clothes or leave.'

My fav comment:
She can play in my pool anytime she wants to. Real woman with real curves, not some skinny stick they call a woman these days.- Dave Carter, Watford, 4/7/2013 16:32 Yes, females who have curves are woman, but also skinny females are woman too. A body shouldn't be what determines a woman. Woman come in all different shapes and sizes, and I think it's rude to say that just because a female doesn't have curves that she isn't a real woman. Woman are much more than their bodies and looks and it's sad that people have to try to take away what a woman is just because she doesn't fit the standard of what people put into their heads.

Post: #2

I definitely wouldn't say she looks too good, but also I don't see anything inappropriate about wearing that at a pool. I think we're missing part of the story.

Post: #3

the midwest sucks

Post: #4

The woman who wrote this comment here at least seems to have put some rational thought into the situation:

Quote:Bathing suit was inappropriate. As a fuller-chested woman myself, I know that I can't get away with wearing the same things as other women because it starts to look inappropriate. I'm ok with this simply because it's not really a bad "problem" to have! Jeez. She looks great for 43, though! I thought she was in her early 20s!

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #5

I cannot find anything inappropriate with her bikini... Probably Independence Water park just has a female General Manager that is lacking the figure to wear such attire and got mad about other woman doing what she can't...

Post: #6

For 43 she is doing good. Passes the boner test.

Post: #7

(07-05-2013 08:26 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  The woman who wrote this comment here at least seems to have put some rational thought into the situation:

Quote:Bathing suit was inappropriate. As a fuller-chested woman myself, I know that I can't get away with wearing the same things as other women because it starts to look inappropriate. I'm ok with this simply because it's not really a bad "problem" to have! Jeez. She looks great for 43, though! I thought she was in her early 20s!

They objected to her bikini bottom, not the top:

Quote:After she got into the pool with her niece and nephew, she was approached by staff who told her she had to put on shorts because her bottoms were too small, she claims.

Post: #8

(07-06-2013 10:42 AM)Soma Wrote:  

(07-05-2013 08:26 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  The woman who wrote this comment here at least seems to have put some rational thought into the situation:

Quote:Bathing suit was inappropriate. As a fuller-chested woman myself, I know that I can't get away with wearing the same things as other women because it starts to look inappropriate. I'm ok with this simply because it's not really a bad "problem" to have! Jeez. She looks great for 43, though! I thought she was in her early 20s!

They objected to her bikini bottom, not the top:

Quote:After she got into the pool with her niece and nephew, she was approached by staff who told her she had to put on shorts because her bottoms were too small, she claims.

Fair enough but I didn't say the commenter was necessarily right. I just said at least she put a rational thought process into it instead of everyone else who immediately assumed the woman couldn't have been out of line in any way.

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #9

Looks fine to me, unless it was thonging involuntarily or something.

WIA

Post: #10

(07-06-2013 10:46 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

(07-06-2013 10:42 AM)Soma Wrote:  

(07-05-2013 08:26 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  The woman who wrote this comment here at least seems to have put some rational thought into the situation:

Quote:Bathing suit was inappropriate. As a fuller-chested woman myself, I know that I can't get away with wearing the same things as other women because it starts to look inappropriate. I'm ok with this simply because it's not really a bad "problem" to have! Jeez. She looks great for 43, though! I thought she was in her early 20s!

They objected to her bikini bottom, not the top:

Quote:After she got into the pool with her niece and nephew, she was approached by staff who told her she had to put on shorts because her bottoms were too small, she claims.

Fair enough but I didn't say the commenter was necessarily right. I just said at least she put a rational thought process into it instead of everyone else who immediately assumed the woman couldn't have been out of line in any way.

And I wasn't disagreeing with you, rather with her. She: i) misunderstood the problem, ii) made it all about herself, iii) boasted that she has large breasts. Typical.

Post: #11

(07-06-2013 10:54 AM)Soma Wrote:  And I wasn't disagreeing with you, rather with her. She: i) misunderstood the problem, ii) made it all about herself, iii) boasted that she has large breasts. Typical.

LOL Good point.

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #12

This is such an American problem. In Europe, topless beaches are prevalent, and of course, kids see public nudity early on. A Spanish woman I used to see used to go topless when she returned to Spain, in front of her kids. If they had been raised there it wouldn't have been a big deal, but because they were raised here, they saw mom going topless as a big deal as they got older. Finally, before returning to Spain one summer, one of her sons asked, "Are you going to take off your top on the beach this summer mom?" That's was her cue to stop going topless in front of the kids. Obviously, in Brazil, the bikini bottoms some women wear are a small triangle to cover their slits, with some string to hold in in place. The thong bottoms don't cover much more. And on Copacabana Beach, some also go topless. I know we're too far along to kill the prudishness in our society, but it won't kill kids to see someone in a bikini. Their problem with this woman is more about how she's built, and not how much the bikini bottom is covering. If she were less voluptuous, they wouldn't have wanted her to cover up. Those bottoms are high-cut on the sides, but the coverage in back appears adequate to me. Considering our cultural mores, she probably should have worn a sarong around her waist.

Post: #13

I found her facebook page.

https://www.facebook.com/MUSCLEHUNTRESS?ref=ts&fref=ts

She talks about how she lifts a lot and now is kvetching about how they won't let her dress at a childs park in a thong. She does pass the boner test especially for the age, so her working out is good. I can't tell if she is Jewish or Messianic Jewish (christian disguised as Jew).

Post: #14

(07-06-2013 02:32 PM)kbell Wrote:  She does pass the boner test especially for the age, so her working out is good.

I'd take her daughters, well the left one at least, instead (assuming they're of legal age in the appropriate jurisdictions and all that).

Post: #15

Delusions of grandeur from losing weight + inability to accept a size larger swimsuit would be more flattering and tasteful + lack of maturity to realise what looks 'sexy' on a girl half her age only accentuates her age by making her look like mutton dressed as lamb = entitled attention whore who *of course* runs to the media.

Reading between the lines, the issue is the bikini *bottom*. Best guess: people complained to management about their kids seeing her pubes. We used to call it 'spider legs'.

Post: #16

(07-06-2013 01:02 PM)Timoteo Wrote:  This is such an American problem. In Europe, topless beaches are prevalent, and of course, kids see public nudity early on. A Spanish woman I used to see used to go topless when she returned to Spain, in front of her kids. If they had been raised there it wouldn't have been a big deal, but because they were raised here, they saw mom going topless as a big deal as they got older. Finally, before returning to Spain one summer, one of her sons asked, "Are you going to take off your top on the beach this summer mom?" That's was her cue to stop going topless in front of the kids. Obviously, in Brazil, the bikini bottoms some women wear are a small triangle to cover their slits, with some string to hold in in place. The thong bottoms don't cover much more. And on Copacabana Beach, some also go topless. I know we're too far along to kill the prudishness in our society, but it won't kill kids to see someone in a bikini. Their problem with this woman is more about how she's built, and not how much the bikini bottom is covering. If she were less voluptuous, they wouldn't have wanted her to cover up. Those bottoms are high-cut on the sides, but the coverage in back appears adequate to me. Considering our cultural mores, she probably should have worn a sarong around her waist.

Sorry Timoteo - but an "American problem?" Really?

I'm pretty sure there are quite a few cultures outside of America in which women going topless is frowned upon...Hell, here in Thailand, even men going topless is frowned upon outside of the most touristy places...I remember getting flagged down by cops with a Thai buddy one time when our shirts were off and the cops making us put them back on, remarking it was impolite; all the tourists get away with it in the most tourist places but they've been known to be clueless so people let it slide, and if they really believe it's not frowned on away from the beach they're only fooling themselves.

Anyhow, aside from the fact that many cultures beyond America find it inappropriate, and I'm sure I'm quite alone in this sentiment as far as this forum goes, I personally feel modesty is an underrated cultural virtue and getting it back could do us some good. Maybe I'm just a prude at heart...I was raised by free-spirit biker/hippy women and no father in sight, so it was hardly my culture that inspired this thinking...but no one can deny that a woman's chest is more sexual than a man's.

The idea that it's not is, in my opinion, feminist brainwashing at its finest.

Just because something is European doesn't make it right.

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #17

She's an attention whore with other serious issues. She posted this to her Facebook wall, no doubt in response to the great personal suffering she has had to endure as a result of having her ass and tits flopping around at a children's water park:

Post: #18

(07-06-2013 08:58 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  She's an attention whore with other serious issues. She posted this to her Facebook wall, no doubt in response to the great personal suffering she has had to endure as a result of having her ass and tits flopping around at a children's water park:

A recent Facebook post of hers...

Quote:In 12 hours I will be leaving for my first 100 mile, 3 day bicycle road trip. I will not be taking my laptop with me (too heavy and I will be carrying everything on my back) so will talk with all of you wonderful people when I get home. Keep Loving your strong, beautiful, and capable bodies that are for far more than just bikinis and water parks...though I absolutely Love both bikinis and water parks. Thanks again for all of your Love. One day all of this will die down and I will have very positive memories of humanity worldwide and their treatment of me.

People have asked me over and over if I plan on suing. I have always felt that this is a God thing, and if God lands a big city lawyer in my lap, I will take him. But I have decided that if I do sue, I will be donating whatever percentage of profit God/Spirit tells me, to Loving causes for women, most importantly to me at this time: Anti-sex trafficking/Prostitution recovery programs. I just want to be very careful not to bastardize what has been a very positive forum in my opinion for female body issues. And when it comes down to it, that is much more important than the green dollar bill. (Though I Love the green dollar bill too.) Final word on the subject: God is my source. God is my source of revenue. God's will be done in this matter. Thank you again for all of your Love.

For the record, all 10 people who commented on this were men....

Yep, no attention whoring going on here.

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #19

(07-06-2013 07:25 PM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

(07-06-2013 01:02 PM)Timoteo Wrote:  This is such an American problem. In Europe, topless beaches are prevalent, and of course, kids see public nudity early on. A Spanish woman I used to see used to go topless when she returned to Spain, in front of her kids. If they had been raised there it wouldn't have been a big deal, but because they were raised here, they saw mom going topless as a big deal as they got older. Finally, before returning to Spain one summer, one of her sons asked, "Are you going to take off your top on the beach this summer mom?" That's was her cue to stop going topless in front of the kids. Obviously, in Brazil, the bikini bottoms some women wear are a small triangle to cover their slits, with some string to hold in in place. The thong bottoms don't cover much more. And on Copacabana Beach, some also go topless. I know we're too far along to kill the prudishness in our society, but it won't kill kids to see someone in a bikini. Their problem with this woman is more about how she's built, and not how much the bikini bottom is covering. If she were less voluptuous, they wouldn't have wanted her to cover up. Those bottoms are high-cut on the sides, but the coverage in back appears adequate to me. Considering our cultural mores, she probably should have worn a sarong around her waist.

Sorry Timoteo - but an "American problem?" Really?

I'm pretty sure there are quite a few cultures outside of America in which women going topless is frowned upon...Hell, here in Thailand, even men going topless is frowned upon outside of the most touristy places...I remember getting flagged down by cops with a Thai buddy one time when our shirts were off and the cops making us put them back on, remarking it was impolite; all the tourists get away with it in the most tourist places but they've been known to be clueless so people let it slide, and if they really believe it's not frowned on away from the beach they're only fooling themselves.

Anyhow, aside from the fact that many cultures beyond America find it inappropriate, and I'm sure I'm quite alone in this sentiment as far as this forum goes, I personally feel modesty is an underrated cultural virtue and getting it back could do us some good. Maybe I'm just a prude at heart...I was raised by free-spirit biker/hippy women and no father in sight, so it was hardly my culture that inspired this thinking...but no one can deny that a woman's chest is more sexual than a man's.

The idea that it's not is, in my opinion, feminist brainwashing at its finest.

Just because something is European doesn't make it right.

WHOA...I didn't say we should adopt toplessness here in America. You went a little overboard. I was attempting to make the point that our issues with sexuality in all forms is outrageous. This idea that even in places where we are allowed to show skin, some still have issues, and hide behind the protection of children to express their own lack of comfort with the human form. I get that some cultures are extremely conservative, but I don't live in those places. If I visit, I'll gladly fall in line. I live here. At a beach or a pool, a woman should be able to wear a bikini bottom that covers her ass adequately without having to put shorts or a sarong around it. I don't see what's inappropriate about toplessness in Europe. Their attitudes regarding sexuality in general are different than ours, and I don't see a problem with it. I don't see it as a matter of right or wrong. It works for them, and that's fine with me. The fact that Americans are hypocritical about the issue is probably the greater problem, if that works as a clarification of my stance. And again...you're focusing on the issue of the woman's chest - I never said there's no difference between the male and female chest - YOU DID. The issue was her bikini bottom, and there was nothing wrong with it. I believe many beaches/towns have ordinances against wearing thongs. That's fine. But if a woman shows up at a beach or pool where there are children, I still don't think she should be asked to cover up her bottom if it provides adequate coverage. I also believe there are establishments that don't allow males to be shirtless here. I'm fine with that too. Modesty is just fine...but to require it at a beach or pool for a person wearing a normal bikini is ridiculous. I recall a couple of stories about airlines throwing a couple of women off of flights because they were dressed too provocatively in the opinion of the flight crew. Where to you stand on that?

Post: #20

(07-06-2013 10:32 PM)Timoteo Wrote:  

(07-06-2013 07:25 PM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

(07-06-2013 01:02 PM)Timoteo Wrote:  This is such an American problem. In Europe, topless beaches are prevalent, and of course, kids see public nudity early on. A Spanish woman I used to see used to go topless when she returned to Spain, in front of her kids. If they had been raised there it wouldn't have been a big deal, but because they were raised here, they saw mom going topless as a big deal as they got older. Finally, before returning to Spain one summer, one of her sons asked, "Are you going to take off your top on the beach this summer mom?" That's was her cue to stop going topless in front of the kids. Obviously, in Brazil, the bikini bottoms some women wear are a small triangle to cover their slits, with some string to hold in in place. The thong bottoms don't cover much more. And on Copacabana Beach, some also go topless. I know we're too far along to kill the prudishness in our society, but it won't kill kids to see someone in a bikini. Their problem with this woman is more about how she's built, and not how much the bikini bottom is covering. If she were less voluptuous, they wouldn't have wanted her to cover up. Those bottoms are high-cut on the sides, but the coverage in back appears adequate to me. Considering our cultural mores, she probably should have worn a sarong around her waist.

Sorry Timoteo - but an "American problem?" Really?

I'm pretty sure there are quite a few cultures outside of America in which women going topless is frowned upon...Hell, here in Thailand, even men going topless is frowned upon outside of the most touristy places...I remember getting flagged down by cops with a Thai buddy one time when our shirts were off and the cops making us put them back on, remarking it was impolite; all the tourists get away with it in the most tourist places but they've been known to be clueless so people let it slide, and if they really believe it's not frowned on away from the beach they're only fooling themselves.

Anyhow, aside from the fact that many cultures beyond America find it inappropriate, and I'm sure I'm quite alone in this sentiment as far as this forum goes, I personally feel modesty is an underrated cultural virtue and getting it back could do us some good. Maybe I'm just a prude at heart...I was raised by free-spirit biker/hippy women and no father in sight, so it was hardly my culture that inspired this thinking...but no one can deny that a woman's chest is more sexual than a man's.

The idea that it's not is, in my opinion, feminist brainwashing at its finest.

Just because something is European doesn't make it right.

WHOA...I didn't say we should adopt toplessness here in America. You went a little overboard. I was attempting to make the point that our issues with sexuality in all forms is outrageous. This idea that even in places where we are allowed to show skin, some still have issues, and hide behind the protection of children to express their own lack of comfort with the human form. I get that some cultures are extremely conservative, but I don't live in those places. If I visit, I'll gladly fall in line. I live here. At a beach or a pool, a woman should be able to wear a bikini bottom that covers her ass adequately without having to put shorts or a sarong around it. I don't see what's inappropriate about toplessness in Europe. Their attitudes regarding sexuality in general are different than ours, and I don't see a problem with it. I don't see it as a matter of right or wrong. It works for them, and that's fine with me. The fact that Americans are hypocritical about the issue is probably the greater problem, if that works as a clarification of my stance. And again...you're focusing on the issue of the woman's chest - I never said there's no difference between the male and female chest - YOU DID. The issue was her bikini bottom, and there was nothing wrong with it. I believe many beaches/towns have ordinances against wearing thongs. That's fine. But if a woman shows up at a beach or pool where there are children, I still don't think she should be asked to cover up her bottom if it provides adequate coverage. I also believe there are establishments that don't allow males to be shirtless here. I'm fine with that too. Modesty is just fine...but to require it at a beach or pool for a person wearing a normal bikini is ridiculous. I recall a couple of stories about airlines throwing a couple of women off of flights because they were dressed too provocatively in the opinion of the flight crew. Where to you stand on that?

Hmmm...To be fair - you were the one who brought up toplessness. I was simply addressing your mention of it and that this cultural standard was an American thing.

Not sure why you felt that was overboard or felt it was necessary to use all-caps with the "you did." Maybe my post came across as over-inflammatory, and if so, I apologize. I didn't mean it that way, and again, was merely addressing your assertion that this was an "American problem," at which point you jumped right to nudity and toplessness, which is why I carried that subject forward. I do respect your views on this forum; maybe I was being a bit aggressive.

Anyhow, in the interest of your question, it is possible for people to dress too provocatively, though men usually don't bother. While it shouldn't be within the reach of our government to dictate how people present themselves, businesses have the right to refuse service when they feel like it disrupts the standard of the environment they hope to create. It is, after all, their environment. In a consumption-driven society, this is how culture talks.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big believer in the concept of personal freedom. But as an extreme example, I'm also a big proponent of legalized drug use instead of sticking your nose in other people's business. Does that mean I don't think businesses, or even government-run venues, shouldn't have the right to keep people from shooting up or even toking up on the premises? Of course not.

As far as so-called provocative dress goes, I wholeheartedly expect people here to disagree with me on this and accept that.

I'm not siding with the people who gave that woman the boot; what I am saying is that we weren't there and this issue may have been less lopsided than the media wants us to believe. My own views of how far American (and European) society have fallen as far as provocative dress have gone are, to me, irrelevant in this matter.

That said, I imagine our life views are pretty different because I actually do prefer cultures where modesty is highly valued, so belaboring the issue probably won't get us anywhere. My main point, and perhaps I should have stuck with that single point to limit confusion, is that it's not merely an American-centric issue as you suggested. In my own opinion, implying that it is also implies that it's somehow inherently wrong when that's not necessarily the case.

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #21

(07-07-2013 12:14 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

(07-06-2013 10:32 PM)Timoteo Wrote:  

(07-06-2013 07:25 PM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

(07-06-2013 01:02 PM)Timoteo Wrote:  This is such an American problem. In Europe, topless beaches are prevalent, and of course, kids see public nudity early on. A Spanish woman I used to see used to go topless when she returned to Spain, in front of her kids. If they had been raised there it wouldn't have been a big deal, but because they were raised here, they saw mom going topless as a big deal as they got older. Finally, before returning to Spain one summer, one of her sons asked, "Are you going to take off your top on the beach this summer mom?" That's was her cue to stop going topless in front of the kids. Obviously, in Brazil, the bikini bottoms some women wear are a small triangle to cover their slits, with some string to hold in in place. The thong bottoms don't cover much more. And on Copacabana Beach, some also go topless. I know we're too far along to kill the prudishness in our society, but it won't kill kids to see someone in a bikini. Their problem with this woman is more about how she's built, and not how much the bikini bottom is covering. If she were less voluptuous, they wouldn't have wanted her to cover up. Those bottoms are high-cut on the sides, but the coverage in back appears adequate to me. Considering our cultural mores, she probably should have worn a sarong around her waist.

Sorry Timoteo - but an "American problem?" Really?

I'm pretty sure there are quite a few cultures outside of America in which women going topless is frowned upon...Hell, here in Thailand, even men going topless is frowned upon outside of the most touristy places...I remember getting flagged down by cops with a Thai buddy one time when our shirts were off and the cops making us put them back on, remarking it was impolite; all the tourists get away with it in the most tourist places but they've been known to be clueless so people let it slide, and if they really believe it's not frowned on away from the beach they're only fooling themselves.

Anyhow, aside from the fact that many cultures beyond America find it inappropriate, and I'm sure I'm quite alone in this sentiment as far as this forum goes, I personally feel modesty is an underrated cultural virtue and getting it back could do us some good. Maybe I'm just a prude at heart...I was raised by free-spirit biker/hippy women and no father in sight, so it was hardly my culture that inspired this thinking...but no one can deny that a woman's chest is more sexual than a man's.

The idea that it's not is, in my opinion, feminist brainwashing at its finest.

Just because something is European doesn't make it right.

WHOA...I didn't say we should adopt toplessness here in America. You went a little overboard. I was attempting to make the point that our issues with sexuality in all forms is outrageous. This idea that even in places where we are allowed to show skin, some still have issues, and hide behind the protection of children to express their own lack of comfort with the human form. I get that some cultures are extremely conservative, but I don't live in those places. If I visit, I'll gladly fall in line. I live here. At a beach or a pool, a woman should be able to wear a bikini bottom that covers her ass adequately without having to put shorts or a sarong around it. I don't see what's inappropriate about toplessness in Europe. Their attitudes regarding sexuality in general are different than ours, and I don't see a problem with it. I don't see it as a matter of right or wrong. It works for them, and that's fine with me. The fact that Americans are hypocritical about the issue is probably the greater problem, if that works as a clarification of my stance. And again...you're focusing on the issue of the woman's chest - I never said there's no difference between the male and female chest - YOU DID. The issue was her bikini bottom, and there was nothing wrong with it. I believe many beaches/towns have ordinances against wearing thongs. That's fine. But if a woman shows up at a beach or pool where there are children, I still don't think she should be asked to cover up her bottom if it provides adequate coverage. I also believe there are establishments that don't allow males to be shirtless here. I'm fine with that too. Modesty is just fine...but to require it at a beach or pool for a person wearing a normal bikini is ridiculous. I recall a couple of stories about airlines throwing a couple of women off of flights because they were dressed too provocatively in the opinion of the flight crew. Where to you stand on that?

Hmmm...To be fair - you were the one who brought up toplessness. I was simply addressing your mention of it and that this cultural standard was an American thing.

Not sure why you felt that was overboard or felt it was necessary to use all-caps with the "you did." Maybe my post came across as over-inflammatory, and if so, I apologize. I didn't mean it that way, and again, was merely addressing your assertion that this was an "American problem," at which point you jumped right to nudity and toplessness, which is why I carried that subject forward. I didn't mean to attack you and I do respect your views on this forum; maybe I was being a bit aggressive.

Anyhow, in the interest of your question, I do think it's possible for people to dress too provocatively, though men usually don't bother. While I don't think it should be within the reach of our government to dictate how people present themselves, I think businesses should have the right to refuse service when they feel like it disrupts the standard of the environment they hope to create. It is, after all, their environment. In a consumption-driven society, this is how culture talks.

I wholeheartedly expect people here to disagree with me on this and accept that.

I'm not siding with the people who gave that woman the boot; what I am saying is that we weren't there and this issue may have been less lopsided than the media wants us to believe. My own views of how far American (and European) society have fallen as far as provocative dress have gone are, to me, irrelevant in this matter.

I imagine our life views are pretty different because I actually do prefer cultures where modesty is highly valued, so belaboring the issue probably won't get us anywhere. My main point, and perhaps I should have stuck with that single point to limit confusion, is that it's not merely an American-centric issue as you suggested.

I merely used toplessness in Europe as a way of contrasting the over-the-top issues we have with sexuality. How can I state toplessness as an American standard if it ISN'T the standard here? And the point was hypocrisy is an American issue regarding this subject. Hell, in the Middle East they're even MORE conservative. The point is that other cultures are more consistent. We're overreacting to a bikini in a place where it's appropriate to wear one, while in Europe not wearing a top isn't an issue. And actually, there are topless beaches in the US. In America, we're arbitrary regarding what's offensive and what isn't. I don't see how modesty comes into play at a pool or a beach, where it's appropriate to dress that way. That particular pool should be more specific regarding what's appropriate in terms of women's swimwear (no high-cut bottoms). They were being arbitrary at this particular pool. No one here argues that businesses shouldn't be able to dictate who they will serve. They do, and most of us comply. That's still way beside the point of the thread. And my opinion was based on the pictures of what the woman was wearing, not my general opinion on the particular subject of modesty or provocative dress.

Post: #22

(07-07-2013 12:43 AM)Timoteo Wrote:  I merely used toplessness in Europe as a way of contrasting the over-the-top issues we have with sexuality. How can I state toplessness as an American standard if it ISN'T the standard here?

Judging by the above, I can only assume you've severely misinterpreted my responses. If you really care to drag this conversation out, I suggest a reread.

(07-07-2013 12:43 AM)Timoteo Wrote:  The point is that other cultures are more consistent. We're overreacting to a bikini in a place where it's appropriate to wear one, while in Europe not wearing a top isn't an issue. And actually, there are topless beaches in the US. In America, we're arbitrary regarding what's offensive and what isn't. I don't see how modesty comes into play at a pool or a beach, where it's appropriate to dress that way. That particular pool should be more specific regarding what's appropriate in terms of women's swimwear (no high-cut bottoms). They were being arbitrary at this particular pool. No one here argues that businesses shouldn't be able to dictate who they will serve. They do, and most of us comply. That's still way beside the point of the thread. And my opinion was based on the pictures of what the woman was wearing, not my general opinion on the particular subject of modesty or provocative dress.

None of this here represents what you said in your initial post, so once again, I'll stress that I was only addressing the things you did say and imply.

Here is that initial post for reference:

Quote:This is such an American problem. In Europe, topless beaches are prevalent, and of course, kids see public nudity early on. A Spanish woman I used to see used to go topless when she returned to Spain, in front of her kids. If they had been raised there it wouldn't have been a big deal, but because they were raised here, they saw mom going topless as a big deal as they got older. Finally, before returning to Spain one summer, one of her sons asked, "Are you going to take off your top on the beach this summer mom?" That's was her cue to stop going topless in front of the kids. Obviously, in Brazil, the bikini bottoms some women wear are a small triangle to cover their slits, with some string to hold in in place. The thong bottoms don't cover much more. And on Copacabana Beach, some also go topless. I know we're too far along to kill the prudishness in our society, but it won't kill kids to see someone in a bikini. Their problem with this woman is more about how she's built, and not how much the bikini bottom is covering. If she were less voluptuous, they wouldn't have wanted her to cover up. Those bottoms are high-cut on the sides, but the coverage in back appears adequate to me. Considering our cultural mores, she probably should have worn a sarong around her waist.

In the context of that post, everything I brought up was perfectly relevant, whether it correlated with your opinion or not.

As far as me being beyond the point of this thread, you asked me a direct question (Where to you stand on that?) and I responded with a direct opinion. If this discussion isn't going to follow a logical train of communication I really don't see a reason to continue.

You can't ask me a question like that and then becry my answer as beyond the scope of the thread.

I mean, I guess you can, but I just don't understand the point...

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #23