Post: #1

Note: This is me musing about how to overcome narcissism & grow as a person.


Lucille Bluth: How not to raise kids.

An enduring problem in America is its incredibly misguided approach to raising children into healthy adults.

When a person goes to therapy, it is amazing what an incredibly high rate of failure it has. The most salient problem is that people don't really want help - they want other's to know they "desire" help and want their life to be better. However, making their life better in actuality is a desire of the second-order - the first is the maintenance of their current psychological state.

When I talk about psychological issues, understand that every disorder of any kind has a streak of narcissism - i.e. managing that complex is more important than all else in that person's life. Whether you are trying to take the sauce out of an alcoholic's hand, trying to get a feminist to overcome her hatred & self-absorption or trying to get somebody to learn to trust others properly, you cutting right to the heart of their issues and their coping mechanism.

Doing therapy on the fly is potentially dangerous if you are perceptive. You can unhinge somebody from what behaviors that have stabilized their psyche - if you are not prepared to transition that person into more healthy behavior, you could be presented with a bad splitting situation, suicide or an even stronger grasping of their coping mechanisms.

Most saliently here, you must consider yourself. It is almost nigh impossible for you to get a good read on yourself without outside help. In order to help yourself, you need outside opinions. Take the Game forum here. One of the key reasons for guys to be honest about where they are is so that so others can be a neutral third party & break down what is going on. Even if you are 80% spot on in your self-analysis, you still miss 20%.

Further considering this situation is the potential narcissist exposure. If you are improving yourself psychologically, then you need to be honest about your life - especially to others. People like to pretend they can "be honest" in their mind, but lie to others, rationalizing that they are being honest to the most important person in their life - themselves. Technically, they are right about the most important person but utilize that reality in a narcissistic way - by only being honest with themselves.

When guys come onto the forum and lie about their lives, the psychology is this: I see RVF as an authority figure. I need their approval. I sense this forum is about improving your life & improving you game. Therefore, I will lie about my life in order to get their approval.

However, this isn't the end. Like any other narcissistic endeavor it is based out of self-hatred. Once they get forum approval, the devaluation kicks in. The process is this: I don't have value. The forum values me. Therefore the forum is valueless. You see this with meltdowns of old members, senior members or guys who gain rep quickly, then flame out badly.



Let's briefly discuss self-honesty. TLP has a piece talking about the need for third-party neutrality & real change within grasp. A key takeaway is how Joe consistently reenacts the poor relationship he has with his father in his interactions with others.

Joe's father seems to be a cold, distant narcissist that used his son as a way to self-aggrandize as he always put his approval (love) just out of reach, so young Joe would chase endlessly after it. Joe acts this out with TLP with TLP unwittingly playing the role of Joe's father.

TLP makes a great point that insight means nothing without real change. A common problem in therapy is that great insights are given, but no real change. Which is the problem addressed at the outset - change is very much within reach if somebody has shifted their focus outward & how their disorders are hurting the people they care about.

I thought I would have more time, so let me close with a few thoughts. This step of understanding how their actions affect the people around them is a critical step. It shifts the focus from self-absorption to awareness of other's as fellow humans. Then, that person can begin the long process of fixing their hurtful behaviors.

TLP closes with a great idea for somebody to understand psychology & your feelings is to read fiction & write down your thoughts & feelings on the people who how they interacted. Come back to it a week later - see how you processed the people & you can get insight on how you view others & the world. Once you wrap your mind around that, you can start revising your behavior.

His last line is fantastic - write down a comprehensive piece about how you view a fiction book or movie and then come back 10 years later. I am sure it would be great experiment.

Post: #2

The real reason people have trouble making psychological change is because we believe we can change our psychology without changing our conduct.

We are what we do.

Look at guys on the board who spend HOURS talking about game.

How many approaches are those guys actually doing?

What would change the person more - reading more game stuff or doing approaching?

Reading a game forum doesn't make you into a player. Doing approaches and putting in work does.

The same is true of most psychological problems.

If a person doesn't want to be a narcissist, it's pretty simple: Start putting the needs and interests of others first. This means take action. Volunteer to shovel shit at an animal shelter. Donate 10% of your paycheck to charity. Do a good deed each day. Compliment someone for no reason at all. Be nice to a complete stranger.

But that would take real work.

Fuck that shit!

Post: #3

I am assuming you're not a fan of lex luger.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qD6EYDIZSD4&t=1m59s

Post: #4

In my opinion, the only reason anyone believes they are not a narcissist, is because they are so narcissistic that they believe they are above everyone else.

Post: #5

(07-03-2013 01:22 AM)Architekt Wrote:  In my opinion, the only reason anyone believes they are not a narcissist, is because they are so narcissistic that they believe they are above everyone else.

Many people consider me narcissist. I have a habit of being extremely candid about my strengths and weaknesses.

However, I find it ironic when people outspokenly label me a narcissist. To do so requires them to have faith in their interpretation of the world, which amounts to an "I am right, if you disagree with me you are wrong" attitude, which is to say that the speaker considers their subjective interpretation to be objectively true.

I can't imagine anything more narcissistic than that.

I, the narcissist, make a special point of constantly challenging my own beliefs, just in case I'm wrong.

At least, that's how I found my way into the community.

I certainly wasn't raised to adopt a red-pill mentality.

Post: #6

Sometimes I get the feeling that I'm here to make girls' dreams come true.

Post: #7

(07-03-2013 02:23 AM)Suits Wrote:  which amounts to an "I am right, if you disagree with me you are wrong" attitude, which is to say that the speaker considers their subjective interpretation to be objectively true.

I can't imagine anything more narcissistic than that.

Pretty much what I think about people in general

Post: #8

(07-02-2013 09:47 PM)2Wycked Wrote:  When guys come onto the forum and lie about their lives, the psychology is this: I see RVF as an authority figure. I need their approval. I sense this forum is about improving your life & improving you game. Therefore, I will lie about my life in order to get their approval.

However, this isn't the end. Like any other narcissistic endeavor it is based out of self-hatred. Once they get forum approval, the devaluation kicks in. The process is this: I don't have value. The forum values me. Therefore the forum is valueless. You see this with meltdowns of old members, senior members or guys who gain rep quickly, then flame out badly.

Another great post, 2Wycked. I know you're a big fan of The Rawness so I'm sure you've read his epic post about narcissism and co-dependency in The Game. Others may not be aware of it, but it's something every game exponent should read, IMHO. It certainly opened my eyes to a few things going on both here on the forum and within my own life. The other day I was flirting successfully with a woman, and I asked myself "Do I like her for who she actually is, or for how she responds to my game?" Turns out it was mostly the latter - she was mainly just another source of narcissistic supply.

And I've not read this term before, so maybe I can coin it: Auto-Narcissistic Supply. I used to do a lot of fantasising as a child - fantasies of power and fame - and I think that kind of internal process could be seen as a form of ANS.

Post: #9

(07-03-2013 01:22 AM)Architekt Wrote:  In my opinion, the only reason anyone believes they are not a narcissist, is because they are so narcissistic that they believe they are above everyone else.

-Everybody is identical in their secret unspoken belief that way deep down they are different from everyone else.

Post: #10

(07-02-2013 09:47 PM)2Wycked Wrote:  Note: This is me musing about how to overcome narcissism & grow as a person.


An enduring problem in America is its incredibly misguided approach to raising children into healthy adults.

When a person goes to therapy, it is amazing what an incredibly high rate of failure it has.

I know that psychotherapy is not the main point of your article, but you make an offhand comment that needs examination.
Is this just your intuitive impression, or do you have some decent study supporting this opinion?

The most well known study of psychotherapy found about 80% of participants get some benefit.

80% is pretty good, considering a person usually has to change some actions they usually like doing to succeed, and accept that some of the ideas they have
are hurting them.

It's weird working in mental health, few people think they could repair, say, an automatic transmission without any specialized training, but it seems many untrained people have a solid certainty they understand psychopathology.

("The Benefits of Psychotherapy" by Smith, Glass, and Miller.)

Post: #11

http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2012/08/j...oesnt.html

First sentence of part VI: the amazing failure rate of therapy.

I have heard in many other sources, especially when dealing with issues of narcissism.

Getting some benefit is probably the best a therapist can hope for considering how difficult it is to help one overcome their issues completely.

Interesting, why do you think I am untrained in pyschological issues?

Post: #12

If there is lots of narcissism today when there wasn't much narcissism 50 years ago, chances are good that it is leading to success in the very situations that cause it to appear.

Narcissism might be a bad disease. It might be a disease that would be socially beneficial to eradicate. But just like british peasants rolling around scratching at flea bites (aka future plague warts), we are not yet aware of what is causing the disease. Actually, I stand corrected. We in the manosphere know the likely culprit: women like narcissists for that dark chocolately bittersweet hotness.

I meant to say we aren't ready to nuke the fleas with agent orange yet.

Post: #13

I thought that maybe there was an advantage to all this narcissism. Is there a way to make narcissism "work" in my favor? How would I go about doing this?
I'm not talking about being a codependent and giving validation to narcissists. This is a good post though, LP grade stuff.

Post: #14

(07-18-2013 12:58 AM)Hades Wrote:  I thought that maybe there was an advantage to all this narcissism. Is there a way to make narcissism "work" in my favor? How would I go about doing this?
I'm not talking about being a codependent and giving validation to narcissists. This is a good post though, LP grade stuff.

It worked for Bill Clinton, right? I guess I struggle to see the line between acceptable narcissistic/sociopathic traits, and dangerous ones, considering much has been written lately about successful people who are pegged as this. And "failure rate of therapy" is casting a broad brush. As in, whats the definition of failure, the person stopped going or they failed to complete a program outlined by the therapist? Over the years and after thousands of dollars I have come to find therapy course correction, not a destination in itself.

Post: #15

Based on 2wycked's posts I have multiple personality disorders for sure.

1. Can't stand boredom (check)
2. Narcissist? (check)
3. Various mood swings (check)

Then again isn't every player a narcissist? I don't really see how hedonism is a bad thing. As long as you're not fucking people over who really cares.

Being selfish in America IMHO is a virtue, not a vice.