Post: #26

(06-14-2013 03:21 PM)Samseau Wrote:  Which industry are you talking about? The ones leaving America for foreign shores?

I'm talking about any industry which can't afford to pay minimum wage for an internship.

Are you trying to connect companies leaving america with being forced to pay workers minimum wage? If not I am unsure why you would even mention that.

Post: #27

(06-14-2013 02:38 PM)Samseau Wrote:  This is a terrible decision. If this becomes law then unemployment will go a whole lot higher.

How is it that someone that works an unpaid internship is employed? They're not making any money and thus can't buy new products so it doesn't help the economy anyway. In fact, it'll probably be better with them on the unemployment rolls since they will actually get money from the government to spend back into the economy. Of course, this situation could be remedied by employers paying the minimum wage instead of nothing.

Employers seem to forget that their employees are also their customers, directly or indirectly, and how you treat them does matter. Yes, you can shortchange your employees and make a higher profit but when everyone else is doing it too, all you're doing is sapping the buying power of your customers and thus lowering the amount they can spend on your products. Henry Ford had this epiphany back when he was building his company.

Post: #28

This is probably gonna come off as ignorant, but if you're dumb enough to be doing actual work for free, it probably means you're low-hanging fruit and deserve to be exploited anyway.

In my life I've come to expect two things from employers: Knowledge, and money. If I'm not getting either one of those, then I bounce to another job where I can find either, hopefully both.

Post: #29

(06-14-2013 03:28 PM)Icepasian Wrote:  Employers seem to forget that their employees are also their customers, directly or indirectly, and how you treat them does matter. Yes, you can shortchange your employees and make a higher profit but when everyone else is doing it too, all you're doing is sapping the buying power of your customers and thus lowering the amount they can spend on your products. Henry Ford had this epiphany back when he was building his company.

Not directed at anyone, but it is funny how many conservatives lament people receiving government handouts but at the same time look for every possible opportunity to refuse to pay these same people a livable wage so they don't need handouts to prevent themselves from starving to death.

If you don't want people to rely on the government, you have to pay them for work.

Post: #30

(06-14-2013 03:37 PM)thedude3737 Wrote:  This is probably gonna come off as ignorant, but if you're dumb enough to be doing actual work for free, it probably means you're low-hanging fruit and deserve to be exploited anyway.

In my life I've come to expect two things from employers: Knowledge, and money. If I'm not getting either one of those, then I bounce to another job where I can find either, hopefully both.

^This sentiment is exactly why this ruling was needed. What you said is like saying: If you are "dumb" enough to accidentally walk into the "wrong" neighborhood, then you deserve to be robbed and beaten.

Post: #31

(06-14-2013 03:37 PM)thedude3737 Wrote:  This is probably gonna come off as ignorant, but if you're dumb enough to be doing actual work for free, it probably means you're low-hanging fruit and deserve to be exploited anyway.

So now you agree unpaid internships are dumb?

Which is it?

Post: #32

(06-14-2013 03:37 PM)thedude3737 Wrote:  This is probably gonna come off as ignorant, but if you're dumb enough to be doing actual work for free, it probably means you're low-hanging fruit and deserve to be exploited anyway.

In my life I've come to expect two things from employers: Knowledge, and money. If I'm not getting either one of those, then I bounce to another job where I can find either, hopefully both.

Remember, the concept of the unpaid intern was initially targeted at students - young people that had no experience, but were interested in getting real-world experience that they could use in the future. It was basically an extracurricular that looked good on the college applications, and if you were already in college, for the resume when you were entering the job market. They were foregoing salary for knowledge that would help them in the future. I wouldn't categorize them as low-hanging fruit that deserve exploitation. I think the corporate world perhaps expanded the potential pool to desperate adults already in the job market they could get free labor from, in exchange for a resume boost that hopefully led to a better job down the line and hopefully a reference.

Post: #33

Anyone who's got skills and is doing well for now should know that the machines and unpaid interns are coming for them too.

These unpaid internships are bullshit.

They are another way for the fuckwads who do no work to make more and the people who do the work to get less.

I can see a tryout in a kitchen. I can see a tryout on a piece of equipment/machinery. Unpaid office work is utter bullshit. WTF are they trying out for? Shuffling papers? Fuck that.

Post: #34

(06-14-2013 04:56 PM)JimNortonFan Wrote:  I can see a tryout in a kitchen. I can see a tryout on a piece of equipment/machinery. Unpaid office work is utter bullshit. WTF are they trying out for? Shuffling papers? Fuck that.

That was exactly my point. I can see tryouts if you doing a job that involved manual labour or particular skills. In the corporate world it is BS. The least they can do is pay you minimum wage.

Post: #35

(06-14-2013 04:56 PM)JimNortonFan Wrote:  Anyone who's got skills and is doing well for now should know that the machines and unpaid interns are coming for them too.

These unpaid internships are bullshit.

They are another way for the fuckwads who do no work to make more and the people who do the work to get less.

I can see a tryout in a kitchen. I can see a tryout on a piece of equipment/machinery. Unpaid office work is utter bullshit. WTF are they trying out for? Shuffling papers? Fuck that.

Yeah. That was essentially what the judge said in his decision. Unpaid interns essentially do menial labor and get precisely zero education or job training they couldn't get from a minimum wage secretary job. It's a ponzi scheme designed to take advantage of kids who don't know any better. Anyone who talks about how this is critical to American business's survival is either insane or thinks that all corporate types are soulless abominations.

http://money.msn.com/now/post.aspx?post=...2f29d2e01c

Quote:"Undoubtedly Mr. Glatt and Mr. Footman received some benefits from their internships, such as résumé listings, job references and an understanding of how a production office works," Judge William Pauley wrote. "But those benefits were incidental to working in the office like any other employees and were not the result of internships intentionally structured to benefit them."

The judge pointed to rules set by the Department of Labor that say unpaid internships should not be to the immediate advantage of the employer, that their work must be similar to vocational training given in an educational environment, and that the experience must be for the benefit of the intern and the intern’s work must not displace that of regular employees.

Also, what the fuck?

Quote:While that was standard procedure pre-recession, unpaid interns in a weak job market have been far less patient with the process. In February 2012, a former Harper’s Bazaar intern sued Hearst Magazines, saying she regularly clocked 40 to 55 hours a week without being paid. Her claim is now a class-action suit that includes unpaid interns who worked in the company’s magazines division since February 2009.

Post: #36

I'm with thedude on this, at least for what he would use it for. I think there is a huge difference between a couple days or week "Tryout" and a three-month summer internship.

Post: #37

(06-14-2013 03:44 PM)The Texas Prophet Wrote:  If you are "dumb" enough to accidentally walk into the "wrong" neighborhood, then you deserve to be robbed and beaten.

But I agree with that too.

Look, maybe I'll being a little too independent here, but I come from the school of fending for yourself.

I've actually been in a neighborhood in East L.A. and a cop drove by and yelled at me, "WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING HERE"

The government only goes so far. A little common sense and intuition goes a long way.

Post: #38

(06-14-2013 05:40 PM)thedude3737 Wrote:  

(06-14-2013 03:44 PM)The Texas Prophet Wrote:  If you are "dumb" enough to accidentally walk into the "wrong" neighborhood, then you deserve to be robbed and beaten.

But I agree with that too.

Look, maybe I'll being a little too independent here, but I come from the school of fending for yourself.

I've actually been in a neighborhood in East L.A. and a cop drove by and yelled at me, "WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING HERE"

The government only goes so far. A little common sense and intuition goes a long way.

But this is totally separate from the legality of it.

If you wandered into East LA and were mugged and beaten, does that mean that you shouldn't be allowed to file a police report or that the people who mugged and beat you shouldn't go to jail for what they did? Does your lack of street smarts mean that the people who preyed on you should get off scott free?

Regardless, it is pointless to get into a long debate about this. It is already law, and unless Fox Searchlight successfully defends this in its appeal, it will be part of the case law used to evaluate other cases involving unpaid internships in the future.

Post: #39

LOL at the people who think this will help people from being exploited.

Before, kids could get experience in the real world.

Now they're just gonna turn into bums because no one will hire them. Unpaid internships ONLY exist because these companies are doing the kids a favor; no one needs them, they are totally worthless trash.

This is a huge victory for the democrats because their welfare ranks will swell.

Post: #40

Once upon a time I wanted to be an audio engineer in film and TV.

The entertainment industry is a complete joke with its interns. I interned with a mixer, but ended up doing bitch work and errands.

He was at least good enough to hook me up with gas money, but I for one am happy to see these all go.

In the entertainment industry and well heck even finance as well where there are so many people pinning for making it big, you can easily exploit the stupid people.

The government is involved because they are missing out on tax revenue.

To the studios that use paid interns to save money, I hope you go under.

Post: #41

(06-14-2013 05:40 PM)thedude3737 Wrote:  

(06-14-2013 03:44 PM)The Texas Prophet Wrote:  If you are "dumb" enough to accidentally walk into the "wrong" neighborhood, then you deserve to be robbed and beaten.

I've actually been in a neighborhood in East L.A. and a cop drove by and yelled at me, "WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING HERE"

The same exact thing happened to me in a neighborhood of Los Angeles called Wilmington. What's funny is that I have lived in much worse places and nobody ever said anything.

As far as unpaid internships go, after law school graduation, I tried to work for a law firm for free and it lasted about a day and a half. I think the fact that I was willing to work for free caused some serious suspicions being that I was bilingual and had already finished law school. I ended up not working at all until I received word that I had passed the bar, at which time I had my choice of about three firms. It wasn't exactly a cakewalk back then and the situation has definitely become worse.

Post: #42

No worries, unpaid internships alive and well at el-mechs auto shop.

Post: #43

This law is actually a good thing, it breaks the prisoner's dilemma that is going on between job seekers. If one person worked an unpaid internship at a good job and the other didn't, the person who did would be significantly better off in the long run. But what happens with PD games is that over time everyone sees the this strategy and adjusts to it. So what ends up happening is everyone ends up doing an unpaid internship because not doing one is so damaging to ones career prospects. But all this does over time is increase the problems and lowers the future payouts from non-cooperation. And this conflict just creates more and more benefits for the 3rd party who is not part of this conflict, e.g. the private companies. Hence why almost every long term PD game ends in cooperation since payouts decrease to the point that cooperating has a better payout than continuing to fight.

The other part of the argument to keep unpaid internships is that the change in price of the interns from nothing to something will result in less jobs overall. This means that the value of the work produced is less than minimum wage + other costs (training, equip, etc.). Yes some people would not be hired but this is bullshit overall. Most work would have been done regardless if it was free or not that's why money and time is spent hiring someone. But, going back to the above dynamic, if you can get smart people working for free to pad their resume, why pay someone?

Really, if a business can't afford to pay an intern minimum wage, this is an organization that is poorly run or an internship that a student shouldn't be willing to forgo earnings for. I mean Hollywood studios can throw a bone to a dude just out of college with no money. And thats the other reason which makes unpaid internships unreasonable, it favor people that can work for free which are rich kids on average. The ones who desperately need the money, will have to take a job outside their field sometimes.

And that leads to my last point if you pay people anything, you increase the amount of people that will apply for an internship which will lead to better candidates since they didn't have to turn down another option to work for free. I worked in an smaller market research firm at one point precisely because they paid 12 bucks an hour for their interns.

Post: #44

(06-14-2013 06:36 PM)cibo Wrote:  The other part of the argument to keep unpaid internships is that the change in price of the interns from nothing to something will result in less jobs overall. This means that the value of the work produced is less than minimum wage + other costs (training, equip, etc.). Yes some people would not be hired but this is bullshit overall. Most work would have been done regardless if it was free or not that's why money and time is spent hiring someone. But, going back to the above dynamic, if you can get smart people working for free to pad their resume, why pay someone?

Really, if a business can't afford to pay an intern minimum wage, this is an organization that is poorly run or an internship that a student shouldn't be willing to forgo earnings for.

Alright man, you're right it's so easy, just start a company and hire a bunch of people. I mean it's not like youth unemployment is over 25% or anything, I'm sure making it more expensive to hire people is going to help.


The one thing most leftists have in common is that they've never ran a business.

Post: #45

(06-14-2013 06:39 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

(06-14-2013 06:36 PM)cibo Wrote:  The other part of the argument to keep unpaid internships is that the change in price of the interns from nothing to something will result in less jobs overall. This means that the value of the work produced is less than minimum wage + other costs (training, equip, etc.). Yes some people would not be hired but this is bullshit overall. Most work would have been done regardless if it was free or not that's why money and time is spent hiring someone. But, going back to the above dynamic, if you can get smart people working for free to pad their resume, why pay someone?

Really, if a business can't afford to pay an intern minimum wage, this is an organization that is poorly run or an internship that a student shouldn't be willing to forgo earnings for.

Alright man, you're right it's so easy, just start a company and hire a bunch of people. I mean it's not like youth unemployment is over 25% or anything, I'm sure making it more expensive to hire people is going to help.


The one thing most leftists have in common is that they've never ran a business.

Actually my roommates tech company runs on free interns. They have the money to pay people but this is their exact logic. The time spent training an intern is usually the highest cost, not the per an hour rate. But yes, your logic is sound if we analyze based on marginal employment but I think you're missing the aspect of a student choosing between working a crap job or a free internship. And every student that takes the crap job is reducing the overall productivity of the economy and lowering overall income if we take into account all the feedback effects.

And yes, I do notice the market distortion and it was a factor in my business plan for software development which has been kind of an off and on thing based on how busy my normal job is.

Post: #46

(06-14-2013 01:56 PM)thedude3737 Wrote:  I'm not allowed to see them cook in the kitchen, they're not allowed to step foot or touch anything until they're on the payroll. There's no tryout or stage anymore because thanks to liberal policymakers in California, it's illegal.

Don't bring them into your workplace. But there's plenty of chefs on

http://eatfeastly.com/intro/

that are both hosting dinners in their home, or will come to your home to cook a meal for a fee.

The easy solution for a tryout is to hire them as contractors for a few off-site meals through micro-employment site like feastly before making a hiring decision.

Post: #47

(06-14-2013 05:54 PM)Samseau Wrote:  LOL at the people who think this will help people from being exploited.

Before, kids could get experience in the real world.

Now they're just gonna turn into bums because no one will hire them. Unpaid internships ONLY exist because these companies are doing the kids a favor; no one needs them, they are totally worthless trash.

This is a huge victory for the democrats because their welfare ranks will swell.

Kids who graduate college and do not yet have work experience are trash? And by paying people money welfare ranks swell and by not paying them welfare rates shrink?

Seriously?



Isn't paying people for doing work a part of capitalism? (Hence shouldn't conservatives be for this?)

Post: #48

There's plenty of blame to go around here.

The Millennials think they are entitled to a fun job with flexible hours, lots of vacation and high pay.

The employers want to repeal the 13th amendment.

Wall Street demands that profitable companies become more profitable. Easiest way to do that is to trim labor costs.

Education system abandoned character education, making the first issue worse.

Education system teaches cultural Marxism ahead of knowledge and skills.

Millennials never learned anything in school because they gamed the education system.

Cold War is over so The System does not need the loyalty of the masses.

Technology is automating jobs higher and higher on the IQ ladder every day.

Post: #49

(06-14-2013 06:54 PM)Blackhawk Wrote:  

(06-14-2013 01:56 PM)thedude3737 Wrote:  I'm not allowed to see them cook in the kitchen, they're not allowed to step foot or touch anything until they're on the payroll. There's no tryout or stage anymore because thanks to liberal policymakers in California, it's illegal.

Don't bring them into your workplace. But there's plenty of chefs on

http://eatfeastly.com/intro/

that are both hosting dinners in their home, or will come to your home to cook a meal for a fee.

The easy solution for a tryout is to hire them as contractors for a few off-site meals through micro-employment site like feastly before making a hiring decision.

That's not even remotely a feasible alternative for line level employees. Chefs, maybe.

I get the point you guys are making about not exploiting free labor. But I can tell you that this policy is just one of many in the liberal quiver that's making it harder and harder for businesses to have employees. It's become extremely expensive. Get yourself in a management or ownership position and see for yourself.

Post: #50

(06-14-2013 07:41 PM)thedude3737 Wrote:  

(06-14-2013 06:54 PM)Blackhawk Wrote:  

(06-14-2013 01:56 PM)thedude3737 Wrote:  I'm not allowed to see them cook in the kitchen, they're not allowed to step foot or touch anything until they're on the payroll. There's no tryout or stage anymore because thanks to liberal policymakers in California, it's illegal.

Don't bring them into your workplace. But there's plenty of chefs on

http://eatfeastly.com/intro/

that are both hosting dinners in their home, or will come to your home to cook a meal for a fee.

The easy solution for a tryout is to hire them as contractors for a few off-site meals through micro-employment site like feastly before making a hiring decision.

That's not even remotely a feasible alternative for line level employees. Chefs, maybe.

I get the point you guys are making about not exploiting free labor. But I can tell you that this policy is just one of many in the liberal quiver that's making it harder and harder for businesses to have employees. It's become extremely expensive. Get yourself in a management or ownership position and see for yourself.

You're probably still exempt. It's unspecialized routine work that anyone could do thats being killed. In fact, if an intern doesnt make economic sense to hire because they arent useful without training, or you dont get immediate benefit, that is when you can probably hire an unpaid intern. But as Jim mentions, and I agree with,this is part of larger group of issues.