Post: #1

Was discussing this at work today. Thought I would share it on the forum.

Below is a fascinating article. It discusses the fact that hundreds of years ago (before the invention of electrical light and the industrial revolution) it was common for people to have two sleeps a night. The first one lasting 4 hours - then people would rise in the middle of the night and socialise (either with their partner in bed or with friends in the street) for 2-3 hours - before going back to have 3-4 hours more sleep.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16964783

This knowledge has being lost to history due to the face that 'first sleep' and 'second sleep' were such common habits that nobody ever really pointed them out.

As such - it is hard these days to realise that sleeping habits were so diffrerent in the past.

I find this interesting on a philosophical basis.

Take washing your hans when you go to the toilet. It is something the majority of people do. As such - it is rarely mentioned in novels. If a character goes to the toilet in a book - the act of washing their hands is rarely mentioned.

So - imagine if hundreds of years from now - people no longer washed their hands when go the toilet (for whatever reason - maybe some strange scientifc/technological advance).

Well - when they study and read the books of our time. They will have a hard time realising that washing your hands was a common habit. Since it is such a common habit that it is rarely remarked upon or recorded in the literature of our time.

Anyway - as for sleep. My sleeping habits are pretty weird. I only get tired at about 5 or 6 in the morning. I am a total 'night owl'.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-...ning-larks [article explaining why night people are smarter than morning people]

As a result - it is hard for me waking up at 7 in the morning for work. So - often I will skip a nights sleep. In order to have a fun weekend doing cool stuff. And in order that I will crash asleep straight after work the next day (through exhausation). Which means - I will be awake earlier enough the next day that I can chill out before work. Which is nice.

Anyway - if works well for me since there is nothing more pleasuarable than collapsing asleep when you are totally exhausted. Knowing that you can sleep for as long as you want (ie weekends or when I crash asleep at about 7pm after skipping a night's sleep).

It is all about bodyclocks. And once you get past 1pm (after skipping a nights sleep) your body moves onto a new day and starts to get more and more awake.

The dreams you have when you are in such a deep sleep are great. Plus - you have more time to do shit. For me it often feels like I get to extend my weekend by an extra day.

I have thought alot about this over the past couple of years. And was delighted when I saw that one of my intellectual heroes (R Buckminster Fuller) came to similar conclusions:

http://www.weirduniverse.net/blog/commen...ion_sleep/

Post: #2

I think that generalized prescriptions for health are ultimately bullshit. Everyone is different and is going through different things.

When I'm super stressed out at work or with life in general, I sleep more. Sometimes up to 10-11 hours. When things mellow out and I have more free time, more energy, and I'm hitting the gym more, I usually sleep 6-7 hours.

I think the same logic can be applied to calorie and nutrient intake. If you have a schedule that runs like clockwork, week in, week out, okay. It's probably easier to formulate a prescribed health regimen. But for those of us that have a more erratic lifestyle, you gotta adapt and learn to listen to your body.

Post: #3

I agree with that.

Listening to your own body is more helpful than listening to advice which is supposed to apply equally to billions of different people.

Post: #4

I am not sure how valid the 8 hours sleep theory is but I agree with thedude. I often sleep with no alarm and wake up when I wake up. Typically I sleep between 7-9 hours and sometimes I will wake up in 5-6 hours. I have a friend who has to have his 8 hours and have another friend who can never sleep for more than 6 hours no matter how tired he is. It all depends on your body but I think the 8 hours is sort of a general average that the human body needs to fully recharge itself. For some people it takes less time, for some more.

Post: #5

Your wise to just simply follow the sun/moon patterns. In summer a sleep from 11pm to 4/5am is sufficient while in winter with longer dark patterns the broken up "naps" could work better.

Post: #6

I think the main thing with sleep is not being woken up by an alarm clock. Just the concept of being jolted out of sleep is not normal to me and I wouldn't be surprised if this is the main cause for a lot of people's anxiety problems.

Post: #7

Maybe it would be more beneficial to do things during the night rather then daytime? Work-related, labor would be much more tolerable during the cool nights then the heat of the day, depending on location and time of year. Maybe it also helped people nutrition wise as they could eat a small meal before returning to bed, bodybuilders do this all the time.

Post: #8

Quote:But the majority of doctors still fail to acknowledge that a consolidated eight-hour sleep may be unnatural.

"Over 30% of the medical problems that doctors are faced with stem directly or indirectly from sleep. But sleep has been ignored in medical training and there are very few centres where sleep is studied," he says.

I knew sleep was important for health, but his quote in the article really blew my mind.

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #9

Most people seem to think they don't get enough sleep in the USA, especially those that have kids.
Saying how tired they are seems to be a form of bragging to me, showing that they're in demand and industrious; or just an expression of economic pressure. Their jobs demand a certain amount of time, then their families, and they feel like they just never get into balance.

Come to think of it, I remember readin inadequate sleep is linked to obesity, our favorite subject.

I worked graveyard while going to classes during the day, and I've never romanticized not getting sleep since.

Post: #10

I agree, it is way too individual to declare an "one-size-fits-all"-advice about the amount of hours one need to sleep. For me? 7 hours works perfect. I've noticed though that less than 6 hours make me really tired and unable to keep focus. The same thing applies if I sleep more than 8.5 hours.

Post: #11

The link between lack of sleep and obsesity is an interesting one.

It is a shame it isn't more widely known.

Post: #12

"As far as I know, the only reason we need to sleep that is really, really solid is because we get sleepy."

That was said by an old and respectable sleep researcher

Post: #13

It varies, one can do with 4 hours of solid sleep, while others like me need 10+ hours.

Post: #14

(06-08-2013 01:54 PM)TheSlayer Wrote:  I am not sure how valid the 8 hours sleep theory is but I agree with thedude. I often sleep with no alarm and wake up when I wake up. Typically I sleep between 7-9 hours and sometimes I will wake up in 5-6 hours. I have a friend who has to have his 8 hours and have another friend who can never sleep for more than 6 hours no matter how tired he is. It all depends on your body but I think the 8 hours is sort of a general average that the human body needs to fully recharge itself. For some people it takes less time, for some more.

For the past 30 years or so I've awoke at 5AM or so, give or take a few minutes, without an alarm. I sleep anywhere from 4-6 hours a day and occasionally take power naps. If I were to get a full, restful eight hours I'd be in heaven. It just doesn't happen with me for some reason.

Post: #15

Intersting discussion!

Once I have lived in a place with no electricity. I only had natural light and went to sleep when it gotten dark outside and wake up when it was bright again. I had the most natural,satisfying,refreshing sleep in my entire life!
Blue light ( the light that comes from computer and TV screen) is screwing everything and is not natural for a human.
I am seriously considering not having any unnatural light again so I can get some sleep.

Post: #16

I also feel like sleeping in the same bed as someone you are in a relationship with is healthy. That is also a myth.

Post: #17

@bacon: It probably has some kind of base in truth, 'cause you probably just fucked the bitch. Probably isn't so true for your contemporary beta with a contemporary empowered woman.

Post: #18

I think 8 hours is a reasonable average that covers the needs of 80% of people. What is not, covered, though, is how this sleep is distributed (similar to wealth, eh? ). Whether it is divided into 6 and 2 hours (siesta), or all at once and, more important, when it ends. For example, regardless of how much I've slept, I will always feel fucked up if I wake up in the darkness (this automatically precludes going to sleep during the day and waking with the night). I believe that this area is where there are significant differences worth studying.

Post: #19

Isn't 8 hour sleep necessary for testosterone production?

Post: #20

Purely anecdotal evidence here, so YMMV

Alcohol, while tasty and a social lubricant will totally fuck up your sleep.

Avoid the liquor if you really want recuperate in your sleep.

Let's say you can't avoid the bottle for whatever reason. They say everything is good in moderation, but in this case I disagree. I have found the best results to be a 3 day off (w/o alcohol) and 1 day on (w/ alcohol) to be ideal.

Or maybe you can abstan Sun-Thur and get shitfaced on Fri-Sat.

5 hours of sleep w/o alcohol != 5 hours of sleep drunk

Plus, if we're all working out (as we should around these parts), you need to be getting proper your proper rest.

Post: #21

^^ Actually alcohol helps me sleep really well, in fact I stopped drinking too much on night outs, because if I'm drunk I'm too sleepy and I can't game.

Post: #22

One odd/interesting thing I've noticed in the past, is the more strict I go on Paleo, the more often I'll be able to have a natural biological alarm clock.

If my body was used to waking up at a certain time by an alarm, I would often wake up anywhere from 5-15 mins. earlier

It even got to the point where there were days when I had to wake up at diff. times than usual, and if I focused and thought about that just before falling asleep, I would generally wake up within a decent range of the different time.

I have no way of proving this, other people may have similar experiences or know about some studies, but my theory is that as you regulate your insulin spikes, your energy level becomes less erratic, and you have more natural control over your body.

Post: #23

(06-10-2013 06:29 PM)AlbertoDelMuerto Wrote:  ^^ Actually alcohol helps me sleep really well, in fact I stopped drinking too much on night outs, because if I'm drunk I'm too sleepy and I can't game.

Getting to sleep is the part that usually does me. I can days at a time with little or no sleep, before I get tired enough to crash out properly.

Post: #24

(06-09-2013 12:36 AM)Wayout Wrote:  Intersting discussion!

Once I have lived in a place with no electricity. I only had natural light and went to sleep when it gotten dark outside and wake up when it was bright again. I had the most natural,satisfying,refreshing sleep in my entire life!
Blue light ( the light that comes from computer and TV screen) is screwing everything and is not natural for a human.
I am seriously considering not having any unnatural light again so I can get some sleep.

You may benefit from this:

http://justgetflux.com/

It has been recommended on the forum recently.

Post: #25

Robb Wolf had a response to that BBC piece some might find interesting.

http://robbwolf.com/2012/02/23/sleep-sle...pact-zzzs/