Post: #1

I've noticed a lot of guys in the manosphere hating on the concept or practicing in mass quantities making the probability of doing something virtuosic greater.

I might have missed something with our agenda here.

As a musician, I can tell you that if you practice enough and more, it will be very hard not to be very good your instrument.

I believe the same is true with game, and the numbers-game thing does work.

Why all the hate on practice and mastery? Please fill me in.

Saying that practice doesn't work is like saying you have rich/famous/ or hansome

Post: #2

The genetics have to be in place as well. We aren't blank slates.

Post: #3

The 10,000 hour rule is backed up by studies showing that those dedicating the most hours into practicing also tend to excel the most.

Malcolm Gladwell also has pointed out with the 10,000 hour rule that the people like Tiger Woods, Mozart, and the Beatles didn’t just put in the hours of practice, they also benefited from luck.

Putting in the time to learn game will no doubt make you better, but it won’t necessarily make you the next Mystery. Still, I’ve had VERY ugly friends pull off highly impressive feats with great confidence and game.

Also, you can’t just practice any sloppy game and expect to be great. It’s just like how you can’t grow up using poor grammar and expect to have mastery over the English language, despite having spoken it your entire life.

Post: #4

(06-06-2013 03:11 AM)soup Wrote:  I've noticed a lot of guys in the manosphere hating on the concept or practicing in mass quantities making the probability of doing something virtuosic greater.

I might have missed something with our agenda here.

As a musician, I can tell you that if you practice enough and more, it will be very hard not to be very good your instrument.

I believe the same is true with game, and the numbers-game thing does work.

Why all the hate on practice and mastery? Please fill me in.

Saying that practice doesn't work is like saying you have rich/famous/ or hansome

If I practice basketball enough, does that mean I will get as good as Lebron James?

Post: #5

(06-06-2013 03:36 AM)The Texas Prophet Wrote:  If I practice basketball enough, does that mean I will get as good as Lebron James?

You won’t, but by dedicating let’s say 10,000 hours of practice, you’ll be superior to probably 99 percent of the guys at your local basketball court.

Post: #6

(06-06-2013 03:36 AM)The Texas Prophet Wrote:  If I practice basketball enough, does that mean I will get as good as Lebron James?

Why should you, Lebron never broke a sweat in his life.

Post: #7

(06-06-2013 03:43 AM)Atilla Wrote:  

(06-06-2013 03:36 AM)The Texas Prophet Wrote:  If I practice basketball enough, does that mean I will get as good as Lebron James?

You won’t, but by dedicating let’s say 10,000 hours of practice, you’ll be superior to probably 99 percent of the guys at your local basketball court.

Could he spend, say 2,000 hours, on another endeavor (one he was naturally suited for) while reaching an elite level?

If so, what's that say about the 10,000 hour rule?

Yes, practice matters. But there is a huge genetic component to this.

Look, I've been in too many fighting gyms and seen guys come in and after a few months dominate guys who have been training for years.

I used to box with a guy who wouldn't lift weights for several months. He'd then go into the weight room and bench 315 pounds within 3 workouts. He was still in high school.

You really think that an average guy who puts 10,000 hours into wrestling is going to beat a guy like that?

On the flip side, even as a little kid people would say to my parents, "Talking to your son is like talking to an adult."

My natural aptitude was in intellectual endeavors - especially those requiring a combination of intellect and practical reasoning, i.e., wisdom.

10,000 hours at a mixed martial arts gym and maybe I make the UFC as a low level fighter. 10,000 reading, thinking, and writing...and my outcome is much better.

Look at Arnold's career. He sucked at every sport BUT bodybuilding. That's why he choose bodybuilding...or we should say that bodybuilding choose him.

If Arnold had put 10,000 hours into swimming, we wouldn't have ever heard of him.

Post: #8

I'm not sure. When it comes to a lot of things people tend to have unrealistic expectations. The concept of mastery in itself is pretty vague. If someone practices 10,000 hours will that make them a world champion? Probably not, since there are many factors that come into play. Also being 'the best' is bullshit since it changes over time. Take any sport and you'll have a million guys arguing who was the best, and in another few years someone else will be called 'the best.'

What I will say is this. If you dedicate 10,000 hours of real practice to something you will be really fucking good. Better than 99%+ of the population.

The example I always give from my own life is BJJ. I am not sure how many hours I'm at, but it's definitely not even close to 10k. When I started I was absolutely terrible(I remember getting smashed consistently for 6+ months.) In that time I must have seen more than 500 people come and go. Since I started there's probably 3-4 guys who are still training. Sure there are 21 year old collegiate wrestlers who come in and kick my ass, but for the most part my experience and skill level is higher than a lot of people now due to practice.

Whether the rule is real or not, my takeaway is to be consistent and dedicated to what you want to be good at it.

Post: #9

(06-06-2013 03:36 AM)The Texas Prophet Wrote:  

(06-06-2013 03:11 AM)soup Wrote:  I've noticed a lot of guys in the manosphere hating on the concept or practicing in mass quantities making the probability of doing something virtuosic greater.

I might have missed something with our agenda here.

As a musician, I can tell you that if you practice enough and more, it will be very hard not to be very good your instrument.

I believe the same is true with game, and the numbers-game thing does work.

Why all the hate on practice and mastery? Please fill me in.

Saying that practice doesn't work is like saying you have rich/famous/ or hansome

If I practice basketball enough, does that mean I will get as good as Lebron James?

No but you can be good a Steve Kerr whom was never a physical freak and simply just worked really fuking hard.

Post: #10

I think you have to practice the right way too.

Eg: you've been driving 20 years as a taxi driver. does it make you a car racer? you wouldn't be able to even compete with 3 months car race experienced person.

I've been just going out every weekends and reading some materials here and there. I don't think this is a serious practice at all.

what do you think you should do to push you to the next level?

Post: #11

I find that the guys slagging hard work are losers who like to be ok at something with little or no effort and brag about it.

As if to say that if they worked hard they'd be great, just trust them on this.

Post: #12

(06-06-2013 03:36 AM)The Texas Prophet Wrote:  My natural aptitude was in intellectual endeavors - especially those requiring a combination of intellect and practical reasoning, i.e., wisdom.

10,000 hours at a mixed martial arts gym and maybe I make the UFC as a low level fighter. 10,000 reading, thinking, and writing...and my outcome is much better.

Look at Arnold's career. He sucked at every sport BUT bodybuilding. That's why he choose bodybuilding...or we should say that bodybuilding choose him.

If Arnold had put 10,000 hours into swimming, we wouldn't have ever heard of him.

All you are doing is making a case for one to wisely choose a right pursuit. But that's given. Of course it's better to put those 10,000 hours into something one has natural proclivity, inclination or a modicum of talent for. Of course those things are helpful, maybe even necessary, but those alone won't take you to top echelons of any given field. You still need to put in the hours. You still need hard work so much so that the case can also be made that with hard work alone one can reach levels of success otherwise unreachable. Hard work is a single defining component that makes crucial difference in all skill/knowledge based pursuits. All top sport coaches know this, all the world's biggest athletes know this, all the best artists and scientists know this, all the successful entrepreneurs know this, yadda yadda......

And staying on top is even more challenging then getting there. Michael Jordan was the greatest ever not because he was the most talented or gifted (remember, he didn't make his high school team, was drafted 3rd in NBA, etc.) but because he played every night as if his life depended on it. Even against shitty teams and uninspiring opponents he never cruised, always pushing himself to the max. And that made all the difference.

Michael Jordan with 100% of his natural ability, but maybe 50% of his work ethic would have been no different from say Grant Hill.

Post: #13

Putting 10,000 hours into anything will make you an expert in that particular task.

I don't think this has anything to do with genetics, it's true that if you are 5'6 and train for 10,000 hours you will not be better than the Lebron James of today but I am pretty sure you will be better than the lebron james of 10 years ago.

Look we all like to look at pro athletes saying that it doesn't matter how much a "regular person" trains it will never get to that level; but we also forget that those atlhetes have already given up more than 10,000 hours to their sport, they've been doing it for more than a decade; that's beyond dedication.

How many people in this thread have given at least 4 hours of their days everyday for the past 10 years into any discipline?

It's easy to find all sorts of excuses to not do any hard work but
Actually dedicating yourself to do something each and everyday for a very long time is something that puts you at a different level of understanding

Instead of blaming in on genes, dedicate yourself to do anything for 10,000 hours precisely and then rethink about all of this

Post: #14

What a ridiculous discussion. Half the people are effectively saying "I can never be the best of the best, so what's the point trying". Yup, might as well just go seal yourself up in your mum's basement now.

The point of hard work is to be the best /you/ can be, to maximise your own potential. Continually comparing yourself to others is folly.

Post: #15

(06-06-2013 05:14 AM)Sebastian Wrote:  what do you think you should do to push you to the next level?

This is a good question. Expand your range to include any and all areas you frequent regularly, and apply game techniques to any attractive woman you meet, in any situation, rather than only under specific circumstances. This is how "true alphas" operate.

Post: #16

(06-06-2013 03:36 AM)The Texas Prophet Wrote:  

(06-06-2013 03:11 AM)soup Wrote:  I've noticed a lot of guys in the manosphere hating on the concept or practicing in mass quantities making the probability of doing something virtuosic greater.

I might have missed something with our agenda here.

As a musician, I can tell you that if you practice enough and more, it will be very hard not to be very good your instrument.

I believe the same is true with game, and the numbers-game thing does work.

Why all the hate on practice and mastery? Please fill me in.

Saying that practice doesn't work is like saying you have rich/famous/ or hansome

If I practice basketball enough, does that mean I will get as good as Lebron James?

The 10k hour rule when applied to Chess players, basically said that with 10,000 hours of DELIBERATE PRACTICE you'd be a Chess Grandmaster, which is world class in the Chess game.

But 10,000 hours doesn't mean you can beat Gary Kasparov or Bobby Fischer.

People really misunderstand the 10,000 hour rule.

If you played basketball for 10,000 hours, that isn't 10,000 hours of pick up games. It's 10,000 hours of working on the most difficult skills, under conditions most people don't work under, with the watchful eye of a master coach/teacher who can correct what you are doing.

If there is a genetic component, it's really about the tenacity to gruel under 10,000 hours. It's not 10,000 hours "in the zone" where everything is automatic and natural, but 10,000 hours when you're consciously aware of how bad you suck at something - yet you keep doing it.

WIA

Post: #17

(06-06-2013 03:11 AM)soup Wrote:  Why all the hate on practice and mastery? Please fill me in.

Saying that practice doesn't work is like saying you have rich/famous/ or hansome

I can't even call it.

But I think people that hate on the 10K hour rule
1) didn't read Malcolm's book
2) certainly didn't read the books and papers where Gladwell took it from

Same folks also disagree with Tim Ferriss, who says you can basically hack your way into being world class. By focusing on core skills, ones that transfer from other domains, you can actually get into elite levels into lots of things, especially given that most people don't try anything.

So they neither believe in working hard, nor working smart.

In their world you have to be born with it, whatever it is.

WIA

Post: #18

Grit > Talent

Post: #19

(06-06-2013 05:14 AM)Sebastian Wrote:  I think you have to practice the right way too.

Eg: you've been driving 20 years as a taxi driver. does it make you a car racer? you wouldn't be able to even compete with 3 months car race experienced person.

No but you will have became a great Taxi driver and if your are smart will have your own fleet with people working for you and will be quite successfull.

Practicing open wheel racing for 10 years will make you a great race car driver.

No need to confuse the two.

This odd cry baby logic in this thread is delusional, this formula is not hard to understand. I also come from a music background and can attest to the fact that time and practice is what makes you good. Yes luck and being gifted will propel you to the top but if you work fuking hard you will become good.

You look at any master in thier craft and behind them is hours upon hours upon hours of practice and hard work. There is no way around it. Gifted folks can ride natural ability but will hit a wall of they don't put in that time.

I always harp that in pro sports and music you for the most part get a big number of socially awkward dudes whom are poor with women simply because they devoted all of thier time tonhier craft and left no time to learn how to deal with women and social settings on a acceptable level. You have big time nerds like Kanye West showing this on full display with erratic and extremely odd and needy behaviour with women, hell even one of my personal favorites Mos Def has a similar poor track record. There hard work grants them a level of fame and access but it comes at a price. Some can be a "natural" at anything and figure out a time ratio to master many crafts at a elite level but this are the super small segment of the population.

If you pick up a golf club today and devote an extreme ammount of hours you will probaly make the PGA Tour. Will you be Tiger Woods - NO - but you will be on Tour and by default in the top 1% of golfers globally.

Post: #20

In a rare instance I strongly disagree with the notion that 10K hours is a scam.

Here is why.

It does not mean you will master anything with 10k hours of work. If you believe you can be a pro xyz athlete just because you put 10K hours in you are a damned fool. Now with that said, if you put 10K hours into something you have a talent for I guarantee you will succeed.

Example: how many of you guys played chess in middle school? Rugby? Badminton? Violin? Drama club? Dance?

Basically, for all you know you could be world class in Chinese checkers, but the fact is everyone just tries to play basketball, football, or baseball.

Personally, I learned this lesson earlier, I loved basketball, my passion was hoops, I played on the highschool team etc. However I took up a different sport that no one wanted to do because people who played were labeled as "pussies". A few years later (and multiple state championship appearances) with a scholarship in my hand. (MikeCF/DVY/Slubu etc can feel free to google my name and confirm). Also won athlete of the year at my school, if I played hoops I would have never gone to college

My point is 10K hours in what you are talented in will make you good, you need to swallow your ego and find what you can excel at. Hell how many of you guys could probobaly stomp all over the cricket team?

If you are at the top of the heap in anything you will get paid/benefit

Another example: I love to draw. I fucking suck at it. I am pretty damn good at working the financial system, pretty good at sales and I can do simple math very fast = finance is a no brainer. If I decided to follow my interest in art my ass would be living under a bridge.

The funny thing is my general interest in drawing is now why I have decent fashion sense and can fix a PowerPoint presentation in three seconds.

So to finalize. "What can I be good at that i would also enjoy?" now move all in on that skillset.

Part of life is finding out what you are good at and very few people spend time doing that, they would rather just stick to options given to them by the masses and choose amongst the limited options given to them.

Generally speaking, people who claim talent and luck are everything are lazy people who are trying to rationalize their own paltry results.

Post: #21

^ from a practical standpoint it may not make sense for you to make a living as an artist. but if you like it and you put in 10K hours drawing, you're going to be pretty fuckign good at it even if you dont have the natural talent for it that some people have.

i cant prove that but it makes sense

Post: #22

In my career every single minute of practical work is logged and you are constantly assessed on your ability and your overall time.

200-300 hours and you are generally regarded as high risk and treated like your basically incompetent. 400-500 your looking at being trusted with another person with 400-500 hours working together, considered low risk for all but the most dangerous jobs. 800-1000 your trusted to work with the low time 200-300 guys and also train them. Anything above that is just gravy and constantly refining your skills.

It make its really easy to actually see the process work when you can compare two individuals off solely their time. For example, I seem to have a natural aptitude for what I do. I have about 350 hours, and am treated like a 500 hour guy. You put me up against another 350 hour guy and I will almost always take the prize.

It is much more apparent in the low time guys. For instance from 200 hours to 300 hours is a 100 hour gap. Huge gap at that time. From 5000-6000 is a 1000 hour gap, relatively small at that time.

I like to think of having natural talent as a multiplier on your overall time. If you have natural talent maybe you only need to work 1 hour for every 2 hours someone else does. Maybe youll be as good as the 10k hour guy when your at 5k hours. But your both going to be really good at what you do.

And yes the quality of practice comes into play as well. Two hockey players with 10k hours are going to be very good. But one might be a shooter with 10k hours and one might be a defensemen with 10k hours. The shooter is going to be better at scoring goals, the defensemen is going to be better at preventing them.

Post: #23

Whoever came up with that 10K hour shit was an idiot that couldn't tie his own shoes, and probably took him that long to just get one on his foot.

Post: #24

Bahahahahahaha. Guy can't tie his own shoes but is famous and well off. But apparently the same guy can get a $1M advance, and also gets paid $45K for speaking fees. Who here gets paid $45K to speak?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malcolm_Gladwell

Haters gonna hate.

Post: #25

(06-06-2013 10:23 AM)WestCoast Wrote:  Bahahahahahaha. Guy can't tie his own shoes but is famous and well off. But apparently the same guy can get a $1M advance, and also gets paid $45K for speaking fees way back in 2005 which puts you two at the same age bracket.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malcolm_Gladwell

Haters gonna hate.

Dude what are you talking about? This a players forum. So you're saying you'd take like advice from him?



   

Guy has never been laid in his life. Or done any contact anything.