Post: #1

A hot girl wonders if she should use her looks to get a guy with more money or stay with the poor nice guy who been there for her.

No suprises here ...

Why not look for someone more confident and richer? Cash in on your looks when you're young and hot. It's not like you can't also look for someone you get along with. It seems like common sense ... but of course the article advises the usual PC crap. What's interesting is that a few of the commenters are right on the money.

Maybe a richer guy would be more likely to cheat but really, isn't a rich shlub better for a hot chick than anything else? It's the only way a girl can get access to wealth and power and loyalty .. unless she plans to climb the corporate ladder or start a business. I say bravo to this chick. She sees the world as it is and correctly wonders if she's short-changing herself while she still has a chance to do something about it.

Average-looking girls don't even have the luxury of making this calculation. Check out the comment from TorontoChick

"Wow. Maybe it's because I'm average-looking, but I actually think you are a terrible person. I hope you have a cigarette habit that finds you with raisinface and genetics that find you with warts as you grow older."

Post: #2

I think to some extent there is a valid argument for settling for the nice guy provider... It seems to me that using one's youthful beauty to land a guy with a lot of money or social capital works in the short run, but not in the long run.

Beauty fades, fortune and awesomeness generally don't.
You're banking on an affluent guy in his 30's-40's keeping around last year's model when he has access to hotter, younger broads...
Compared to the aforementioned nice guy, who is probably acutely aware that he has little chance of doing better, as you grow old together.

I think it's pretty hard to argue that hypergamy of this sort hasn't had a decidedly negative affect on dating and families in the West.

Post: #3

(05-31-2013 11:29 PM)Ziltoid Wrote:  I think it's pretty hard to argue that hypergamy of this sort hasn't had a decidedly negative affect on dating and families in the West.

I don't get a lot of the hate on hypergamy in these parts.

I agree with what you're saying that it has harmed dating/families in the west, but thats only because girls have become delusional as to what their attractiveness warrants.

Landwhales want a 6'2 ripped doctor, where the best they should be able to do (on average) is a dude who can support her cheeto habit.

I've gotten angry at it before when a girl started straying with another dude just as things were ending between us (we were fuck buddies). I was mad at first until I found out who the dude was.

He had a similar education (equating this to 'job' status for university), but was far more "worldly" than me. He traveled extensively, I hadn't. He dressed better than me, he was more ripped than I was. Can't hate when a better man swoops up your girl. If you get fatter, duller and don't improve yourself while dating a girl there's no reason why she shouldn't dump your ass for a better man provided its within the bounds her attractiveness provides. ie. she was dating down with me, but dating neutral with the next guy.

Post: #4

First of all we all know that the real problem of her currentt fiancee is not so much the lack of money, but lack of charisma and being too nice.

Second, it is not looking for a rich man that is amoral. It is using and then dumping nice betas like this fiencee, before that, that is amoral.

Third, we really need to know the real beauty level of this girl. Unless she is exceptionally beautyful (a 9/10) she is better with the faithful poorer niceguy, because the rich guy will easily be able to upgrade her to something hotter. We also need to know her smoking and eating habits to know if she is likely to hit the wall soon or not. Also I can bet she is not having a rich beta in her mind, but a rich alfa - which means that most likely this girl is overestimating herself, like most women in west who are unable to ever feel happy because they think they deserve better then they actually do.

Post: #5

(06-01-2013 12:05 AM)Mage Wrote:  

First of all we all know that the real problem of her currentt fiancee is not so much the lack of money, but lack of charisma and being too nice.

Second, it is not looking for a rich man that is amoral. It is using and then dumping nice betas like this fiencee, before that, that is amoral.

Third, we really need to know the real beauty level of this girl. Unless she is exceptionally beautyful (a 9/10) she is better with the faithful poorer niceguy, because the rich guy will easily be able to upgrade her to something hotter. We also need to know her smoking and eating habits to know if she is likely to hit the wall soon or not. Also I can bet she is not having a rich beta in her mind, but a rich alfa - which means that most likely this girl is overestimating herself, like most women in west who are unable to ever feel happy because they think they deserve better then they actually do.

I hear you on this one. Lack of charisma and being too nice is probably the real problem. No doubt these traits make him less likely to be rich too! Hypergamy can be bad and have a negative effect if girls overestimate their value BUT if a girl is truly hot and as smart as her prospect, why shouldn't she ditch a beta provider? It's crass like an athlete ditching his loyal team to win a championship but it's not wrong.

I agree that this girl is most likely overestimating herself and that most women in the west won't happy because they think they deserve better than they do.

Post: #6

For the post, I make the disclaimer that I assumed she is American.

I think she is a great case study to demonstrate the mass psychosis of American women. You can literally go through her thoughts line by line and tear them apart. Also, it is worth noting that I am not cherry picking her words to make her look bad (She does a pretty good job of that on her own), This is her entire letter unabridged.

“I’m recently engaged to the most honest, thoughtful, and loving man I’ve ever met. He has supported me through many hard times, including losing my job and being assaulted." - Sounds like the dream for a women raised on disney films and whatever new romantic comedy hollywood is spewing out.

"Here’s the but about him: He makes no money. He has ambitions, and he’s smart, but will likely only bring a middle-class income at best. I have an OK job and I’m self-sufficient. " - Of course, they can never be happy. And the phrasing in the next sentence with the but implies that she knows she is of equal or less status than him. Given the current economic state of affairs, middle class isnt all that bad, and besides it shows just how consumer minded she is. Thats her fiance SHOULD be upper-class because se is a disney princess and deserves the best in life..... Ugh, give me a break.

"Now here’s the but about me: I’m really, really pretty. My whole life people have told me I could get any man I want, meaning a rich man, and are shocked that I’m engaged to my fiancé, nice though he is. " Step 1- Take this comment with a grain of salt because we all know how over inflated the egos of American women are. Step 2- The median age of first marriage for men in American is 29 for men while it is 27 for women. Assuming she is average, guess what? I see a highway sign that reads "WALL, UP AHEAD" right above a sign that says "NO U Turns".
Also of note- she says all her life people have told her how pretty she is which explains why her ego is so big. I hate political correctness in American because you cant call the fours and fives of the world ugly hos. Say nothing of the ones, twos, and threes. I bet her daddy gave her everything she ever wanted. All he did was turn her in to a self-entitled brat who ,if I met tonight in a club, would have no problem bobbing up and down my dick while her beta waits patiently at home for her to return the the house clean and a dinner that he, I mean she, prepared for her. Daddy's Little girl alright. I bet its her first time doing this too.

"I’ve never dated a rich man, but it does make me curious. " - I have my doubts she is as pretty as she thinks she is since if she was that hot her standards would inevitably gone up and she would have learned young that she could keep trading up. She has already shown the psychological disposition for doing so, so it is fair to assume that when she was younger she would have traded up if she could. BUT, she isnt hot enough.

"So part of me thinks I’m squandering my good looks on this poor man," - On the one hand you have to insult her for being a gold digger; on the other hand, she knows her place and admits she cant get rich on her own and needs to ride on a man's coattails to do it.

"and the other part of me thinks that I’m so shallow that I don’t even deserve him or anyone else. Am I a fool for thinking that a poor man can make me happy, or an idiot for believing a sexist fantasy?” - Cognitive Dissonance 101 - the discomfort experienced when simultaneously holding two or more conflicting beliefs or ideas. She alleviates it by writing to the circle jerk that is a female advice column. ( Is that an oxymoron? ) (or she is just a regular moron?) She may call it a sexist fantasy, but here she accidentally admits that secretly all she desires is a rich good looking cock instead of the caring, attentive, sweet, and loyal guy she SAYS she wants. There are your two competing ideas. But in her mind it isnt competing. She, with her probably OK looks, thinks she can get the good looking stud on the motorcycle who is a jerk to everyone but sweet to her, and makes 7 figures annually trading on the stock market.

She is a real head case. I'm afraid its a product of her culture, its incurable. But their are treatment options available, this discomfort can be easy to temporarily alleviate- copious amounts of alcohol and random dick.

Post: #7

Oh, my weeping soul. My heart goes out to her. This is a most dreadful problem.

Post: #8

(06-01-2013 01:58 AM)Vakarian Wrote:  I think she is a great case study to demonstrate the mass psychosis of American women.

On the bright side, it's a woman that wrote the article decrying her selfishness and calling her an "awful women," and plenty other women on the Internet are agreeing with her. The fact that we as a people still find this type of behavior repulsive suggests her particular type of psychosis is still a rarity.

I'm sure we've all met genuine gold diggers in our life. In my experience - and this coming from an area where gold-digging behavior exists on a larger scale than in other places (aka pot-growing capital of the US) - they were hated on and gossiped about behind their backs, often by their own friends and family.

Big deal, you might say; gossip doesn't do anything. Well, I believe that as annoying and trivial as gossip seems, it often serves as part of a larger process of semi-alienation. In other words, it's just one small part of how we as a society naturally weed out and punish behavior we don't accept.

Behavior that is rare, unpleasant, and unacceptable - like this woman's.

I've been on the wrong end of gossip and for that reason choose not to engage in it - it can be very dangerous. But I also see how it could be a natural mechanism of societal function.

On another note, check this guy's troll in the comments of the original column? Was it one of you guys? He actually got chastised by someone who didn't pick up on the sarcasm too. lol

Quote:I'm recently engaged to the nicest, sweetest and most loving woman I've ever met. She has supported me through many hard times, including losing my job and a bad car accident. Here's the but about her: She's really not that attractive. She tries, and she can make herself look cute from time to time, but she is fairly chubby and has kind of a weird face. I am decent looking but nothing to write home about. Now here's the but about me: I'm really, really rich. Since my income hit stratospheric heights, people have told me I could get any woman I want, meaning a model or starlet, and are shocked that I'm engaged to my fiancé, nice though she is. I’ve never dated a really hot woman, but it does make me curious. So part of me thinks I'm squandering my money on this plain Jane, and the other part of me thinks that I'm so shallow that I don't even deserve her or anyone else. Am I a fool for thinking that a fat, ugly woman can make me happy, or an idiot for believing a sexist fantasy?

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #9

Great thread

In my experience modern female debt is what drives their hypergamy. They spend all their money on clothes, shoes and purses to compete with other women.

Most the time they live the big fish in a little pond lifestyle enjoying their pseudo local celebrity. But when that 1 high status guy rolls in to their circle they'll throw everything away for a chance to trade up. It's no different than playing the lottery. High risk = High return.

Post: #10

(06-01-2013 08:03 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  On another note, check this guy's troll in the comments of the original column? Was it one of you guys? He actually got chastised by someone who didn't pick up on the sarcasm too. lol

Quote:I'm recently engaged to the nicest, sweetest and most loving woman I've ever met. She has supported me through many hard times, including losing my job and a bad car accident. Here's the but about her: She's really not that attractive. She tries, and she can make herself look cute from time to time, but she is fairly chubby and has kind of a weird face. I am decent looking but nothing to write home about. Now here's the but about me: I'm really, really rich. Since my income hit stratospheric heights, people have told me I could get any woman I want, meaning a model or starlet, and are shocked that I'm engaged to my fiancé, nice though she is. I’ve never dated a really hot woman, but it does make me curious. So part of me thinks I'm squandering my money on this plain Jane, and the other part of me thinks that I'm so shallow that I don't even deserve her or anyone else. Am I a fool for thinking that a fat, ugly woman can make me happy, or an idiot for believing a sexist fantasy?

The thing is since a rich guy can love and provide for multiple women simultaniously he is biologically justified to adding more women to his harem, every next one more younger and prettier then the previous. Our preudo-monogamous society shuns that, but a man has all the moral grounds to attract new lovers especially if he does not kick his old women, who have lost their beauty and fertility on the street, but let's say gives them a small apartment and an dequate monthly allowance that is enough to live decently. This is how nature has intended for alpha men to live and would also beneficial to society.

A woman has no real moral grounds to upgrade - she can love only one man simultaneously and she has a decreased value with every new partner and with every new anniversity past the age of 30. So if she tries to sell her diminished goods to men of increasing value - it is a scam and only beta men with high value and low charisma would fall for that. The natural path intended for women is to keep her legs shut until age of 16-22 and then marry the best guy she can get at this age, according to advice from her father. The temptation to upgrade can come, but contrary to Holywood movies who portray this as an escape from a rigid patriarchal system - in real life this upgrade usually creates a mess, broken families and broken lives, including the life of this woman too. Now is some cases some very beautiful and very smart women can get away with this - but for every woman who does this sucessfully there will be 10 entitled imitators who think they are all princesses and who will spend their later lives as single mothers or cat women working as janitors and cashiers at supermarket.

Post: #11

The funny thing is she's probably a 7.5 at best.

If she really was as pretty as she thinks she is, she wouldn't be sitting around wondering what it's like to date a rich guy. One would have already scooped her up.

The thing about a 9 or above is that they're impossible to hide. When you walk around with a girl of that caliber, literally everyone stares at her. Guys and girls alike. If a girl is that hot it's impossible for her not to pick up on it and take advantage of it.

My guess is that this is a girl of above-average looks who is surrounded by uggos and fatties who make her feel way more attractive relatively than she actually is objectively. Self-delusion, hypergamy and the hamster do the rest.

Post: #12

(06-01-2013 12:51 AM)Abe Lincoln Wrote:  Hypergamy can be bad and have a negative effect if girls overestimate their value BUT if a girl is truly hot and as smart as her prospect, why shouldn't she ditch a beta provider? It's crass like an athlete ditching his loyal team to win a championship but it's not wrong.

Scenario 1. If the rich guy is a beta, then she would win financially, but she would lose emotionally because it is no pleasure to live with a man whom she doesn't love. She has money but has no love.

Scenario 2. If the rich guy is alfa, he will see her for the golddigger she is, he will play with her and then ditch her, leaving her with no man at all. She will have no money and no love, but a short moment that will cause her to live with hate for the rest of her life complaining that "there are no more good men left".

Scenario 3. If she stays with her current man - whom she doesn't love obviously - she has no love and no money either. But at least she has his support.

The first scenario is the best for her as she would get money at least, but this scenario is also the least likely, because she will most likely gravitate towards a rich alfa man like a moth towards flame.

She just cannot be happy, no matter what she does. She is the problem, not what she does or what man she is with.

Scenario 4. She learns to understand and value her current man and lowers her standarts. Instead of draining the resources of her fiancee she supports him with cooking and invigorating sex and emotional support making him a successful self-made man who earns his place in life by being sure of himself and not having to worry about problems in domestic front enabling to 100% put himself in his business. In the end she gets both love and money.

But yes this scenario is the least likely to happen because NO ONE will ever give her this advice, not her friends, not her parents, not her relationship councelors, not her cosmopolitain magazines, not even her contemporary christian church. Only a bunch of mysogynistical retroactive players in some obscene forum at the fringe part of the internet where she will never go and whom she will never listen to.

Post: #13

(06-01-2013 10:22 AM)Mage Wrote:  Scenario 4. She learns to understand and value her current man and lowers her standarts. Instead of draining the resources of her fiancee she supports him with cooking and invigorating sex and emotional support making him a successful self-made man who earns his place in life by being sure of himself and not having to worry about problems in domestic front enabling to 100% put himself in his business. In the end she gets both love and money.

But yes this scenario is the least likely to happen because NO ONE will ever give her this advice, not her friends, not her parents, not her relationship councelors, not her cosmopolitain magazines, not even her contemporary christian church. Only a bunch of mysogynistical retroactive players in some obscene forum at the fringe part of the internet where she will never go and whom she will never listen to.

Ha ha so true! Outside of western countries where values are "traditional" girls have a much higher sense of loyalty. They are looking for permanent companionship and to play a role in the relationship. Hell, it was like that in the US until things started to change like what, 30-40 years ago?

As you pointed out, the problem isn't trading in on your looks so much as agreeing to marry someone but then also wanting someone better. A hot girl in Latin America or Eastern Europe would trade in on her looks to get the best she can .. and then stick with him period! Our society telling women it's OK to be self-absorbed and entitled is setting them up for disaster.

Shouldn't a 'beta' guy who has a crap office job still be able to be 'alfa' in the context of his relationship at home? If she will play the feminine role, then he can play the masculine role? I doubt these western ho's would be half as worried about 'trading up' if their middle-class boyfriends acted like billy badasses at home. It's unnatural and unattractive when a man plays the support role and tries to please his woman too much. That really gets under my skin and I see it all the time. The feminization of men just invites women to think they can do better!

This dude should flip the script and change his behaviour or neither one of them is going to be happy in the long run ...

Post: #14

(05-31-2013 11:59 PM)WesternCancer Wrote:  

(05-31-2013 11:29 PM)Ziltoid Wrote:  I think it's pretty hard to argue that hypergamy of this sort hasn't had a decidedly negative affect on dating and families in the West.

I don't get a lot of the hate on hypergamy in these parts.

Hating on hypergamy is hating on human nature. It's a reality, but the specific expression it finds depends on a society's values.

Post: #15

Reminds me of that Craigslist NYC post from a few years ago. It is posted here.

/thread-8976.html By Hencredible Casanova.

I pasted it below from HC's thread.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Funny true story some of you may be familiar with.

THIS APPEARED ON CRAIG'S LIST - must read down to the reply...


What am I doing wrong?

Okay, I'm tired of beating around the bush. I'm a beautiful
(spectacularly beautiful) 25 year old girl. I'm articulate and classy.
I'm not from New York. I'm looking to get married to a guy who makes at
least half a million a year. I know how that sounds, but keep in mind
that a million a year is middle class in New York City, so I don't think
I'm overreaching at all.

Are there any guys who make 500K or more on this board? Any wives? Could
you send me some tips? I dated a business man who makes average around
200 - 250. But that's where I seem to hit a roadblock. 250,000 won't get
me to central park west. I know a woman in my yoga class who was married
to an investment banker and lives in Tribeca, and she's not as pretty as
I am, nor is she a great genius. So what is she doing right? How do I
get to her level?

Here are my questions specifically:
- Where do you single rich men hang out? Give me specifics- bars,
restaurants, gyms

- What are you looking for in a mate? Be honest guys, you won't hurt my
feelings

- Is there an age range I should be targeting (I'm 25)?

- Why are some of the women living lavish lifestyles on the upper east
side so plain? I've seen really 'plain jane' boring types who have
nothing to offer married to incredibly wealthy guys. I've seen drop dead
gorgeous girls in singles bars in the east village. What's the story
there?

- Jobs I should look out for? Everyone knows - lawyer, investment
banker, doctor. How much do those guys really make? And where do they
hang out? Where do the hedge fund guys hang out?

- How you decide marriage vs. just a girlfriend? I am looking for
MARRIAGE ONLY

Please hold your insults - I'm putting myself out there in an honest
way. Most beautiful women are superficial; at least I'm being up front
about it. I wouldn't be searching for these kind of guys if I wasn't
able to match them - in looks, culture, sophistication, and keeping a
nice home and hearth.

it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial
interests

PostingID: 432279810


----------

THE ANSWER

Dear Pers-431649184:

I read your posting with great interest and have thought meaningfully
about your dilemma. I offer the following analysis of your predicament.
Firstly, I'm not wasting your time, I qualify as a guy who fits your
bill; that is I make more than $500K per year. That said here's how I
see it.

Your offer, from the prospective of a guy like me, is plain and simple a
crappy business deal. Here's why. Cutting through all the B.S., what you
suggest is a simple trade: you bring your looks to the party and I bring
my money. Fine, simple. But here's the rub, your looks will fade and my
money will likely continue into perpetuity...in fact, it is very likely
that my income increases but it is an absolute certainty that you won't
be getting any more beautiful!

So, in economic terms you are a depreciating asset and I am an earning
asset. Not only are you a depreciating asset, your depreciation
accelerates! Let me explain, you're 25 now and will likely stay pretty
hot for the next 5 years, but less so each year. Then the fade begins in
earnest. By 35 stick a fork in you!

So in Wall Street terms, we would call you a trading position, not a buy
and hold...hence the rub...marriage. It doesn't make good business sense
to "buy you" (which is what you're asking) so I'd rather lease. In case
you think I'm being cruel, I would say the following. If my money were
to go away, so would you, so when your beauty fades I need an out. It's
as simple as that. So a deal that makes sense is dating, not marriage.

Separately, I was taught early in my career about efficient markets. So,
I wonder why a girl as "articulate, classy and spectacularly beautiful"
as you has been unable to find your sugar daddy. I find it hard to
believe that if you are as gorgeous as you say you are that the $500K
hasn't found you, if not only for a tryout.

By the way, you could always find a way to make your own money and then
we wouldn't need to have this difficult conversation.

With all that said, I must say you're going about it the right way.

Classic "pump and dump."

I hope this is helpful, and if you want to enter into some sort of
lease, let me know.

Post: #16

(06-01-2013 09:53 AM)Mage Wrote:  

(06-01-2013 08:03 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  On another note, check this guy's troll in the comments of the original column? Was it one of you guys? He actually got chastised by someone who didn't pick up on the sarcasm too. lol

Quote:I'm recently engaged to the nicest, sweetest and most loving woman I've ever met. She has supported me through many hard times, including losing my job and a bad car accident. Here's the but about her: She's really not that attractive. She tries, and she can make herself look cute from time to time, but she is fairly chubby and has kind of a weird face. I am decent looking but nothing to write home about. Now here's the but about me: I'm really, really rich. Since my income hit stratospheric heights, people have told me I could get any woman I want, meaning a model or starlet, and are shocked that I'm engaged to my fiancé, nice though she is. I’ve never dated a really hot woman, but it does make me curious. So part of me thinks I'm squandering my money on this plain Jane, and the other part of me thinks that I'm so shallow that I don't even deserve her or anyone else. Am I a fool for thinking that a fat, ugly woman can make me happy, or an idiot for believing a sexist fantasy?

The thing is since a rich guy can love and provide for multiple women simultaniously he is biologically justified to adding more women to his harem, every next one more younger and prettier then the previous. Our preudo-monogamous society shuns that, but a man has all the moral grounds to attract new lovers especially if he does not kick his old women, who have lost their beauty and fertility on the street, but let's say gives them a small apartment and an dequate monthly allowance that is enough to live decently. This is how nature has intended for alpha men to live and would also beneficial to society.

A woman has no real moral grounds to upgrade - she can love only one man simultaneously and she has a decreased value with every new partner and with every new anniversity past the age of 30. So if she tries to sell her diminished goods to men of increasing value - it is a scam and only beta men with high value and low charisma would fall for that. The natural path intended for women is to keep her legs shut until age of 16-22 and then marry the best guy she can get at this age, according to advice from her father. The temptation to upgrade can come, but contrary to Holywood movies who portray this as an escape from a rigid patriarchal system - in real life this upgrade usually creates a mess, broken families and broken lives, including the life of this woman too. Now is some cases some very beautiful and very smart women can get away with this - but for every woman who does this sucessfully there will be 10 entitled imitators who think they are all princesses and who will spend their later lives as single mothers or cat women working as janitors and cashiers at supermarket.

You've obviously come to the conclusion that nature decides our morality. I get it. But don't assume that everyone agrees with you.

In many ways, our morality, which I've observed to be in many aspects inherent among cultures, goes against our natural drives.

Kinda makes ya think....

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #17

If we took the words literally, there'd be nothing wrong with her choices. She offers looks and beauty and should use those to get the best deal that she can.

But we know too much. We can read between the lines.

We know she is not hot enough to deserve a rich man. We know about the Cult of Self Esteem that inflates female egos.

Thus the advice columnist (the question originally appeared in Dear Prudence at Slate) gave the wrong advice.

The right advice would be, "You are not as hot as you think you are. People have lied to you. You should be happy to have found a devoted partner to start a family with. Many delusional woman overestimate their attractiveness, waste the best years of their lives waiting for a man they don't deserve to sweep them off their feet, and then die lonely and alone in a cat-piss filled apartment."

Post: #18

One thing I find interesting is that in many more traditional cultures her ideas would not be so frowned upon.

Based on my experiences abroad, I'd say it's almost more taboo to think like this in modern Western culture than it would have been before feminism. Before feminism, perhaps her ideas wouldn't have been spoken aloud all that often, but I think a lot more people would have been nodding there heads and understanding where she was coming from if she did speak up (at least among friends). Advising daughters, sisters, etc, to think this way would be close to the norm.
At the same time, I've felt just like her in every serious relationship, but my hang-up is looks instead of money. Given our different roles in life, is that so different?

In Western culture we've really taken the monetary dynamic out of male/female relationships, but that's not necessarily the case in a lot of other places.

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #19

(06-01-2013 03:35 PM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  One thing I find interesting is that in many more traditional cultures her ideas would not be so frowned upon.

Based on my experiences abroad, I'd say it's almost more taboo to think like this in modern Western culture than it would have been before feminism. Before feminism, perhaps her ideas wouldn't have been spoken aloud all that often, but I think a lot more people would have been nodding there heads and understanding where she was coming from if she did speak up (at least among friends). Advising daughters, sisters, etc, to think this way would be close to the norm.
At the same time, I've felt just like her in every serious relationship, but my hang-up is looks instead of money. Given our different roles in life, is that so different?

In Western culture we've really taken the monetary dynamic out of male/female relationships, but that's not necessarily the case in a lot of other places.

In traditional cultures parents did argue girls to marry rich men, but not too rich - they argued marrying people from the same social circle and not to try to jump too high.

It was common for peasants to to hide their daughters when nobility came to town. They knew very well that nobles (alfas) would take any girl they see if they like her and play with her for the night. And they knew that the girl might collaborate because also she is drawn to the noble (5 minutes of alfa worh more then 5 years of beta as we say today), but they knew that this would drop her value in they eyes of young lads from that social circle that might actually marry her. So they did their best to hide their women.

So a peasant family in past did try to make their girls to marry a rich hard working peasant with many cows and large land (upper beta), but they would also try to protect her from foolishly trying to charm a prince (alfa) who rode trough the village. They were real and grounded in reality. Modern girls have no one to draw the upper limit to them. They believe a Cinderrella can snatch a Prince, but this fairy tale is just a fairy tale.


And of course there is nothing wrong to look for a wealthy man (also there is n othing wrong in searching for a beautiful and wealthy wife), but in traditional cultures when people engaged they gave their WORD that they will marry each other and also parents gave their WORD that they will wed their children. And when this word was given it was frowned upon to break it and trade up. The value of promise and the persons WORD was much higher then it is now. The people were generally much more accountable in these matters for the most part in traditional cultures.

Post: #20

Mage, whats all this about the middle ages. Do you have any substantial proof? I know Ned Stark fucked a tavern wench and thats how Jon Snow was born, but some of these ideas about days past seem a bit far fetched.

Post: #21

Not sure what happened to his post...

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #22

(06-01-2013 04:04 PM)Mage Wrote:  And of course there is nothing wrong to look for a wealthy man (also there is n othing wrong in searching for a beautiful and wealthy wife), but in traditional cultures when people engaged they gave their WORD that they will marry each other and also parents gave their WORD that they will wed their children. And when this word was given it was frowned upon to break it and trade up. The value of promise and the persons WORD was much higher then it is now. The people were generally much more accountable in these matters for the most part in traditional cultures.

Some very good points. But the problem is we all too often project it as a woman-centric societal flaw.

Therein lies one of the major problems with the MRA movement. OUR word is worth less than it used to be too - not just women's. We've proven over and over again on this forum that even when women are more traditional and loyal, we are still not down to be that guy.

Hell, I proved it with my own actions in America; plenty of women there are still down to settle at a young age if you are the prize, poor or not, as I'm sure so many with more game than me have noticed. But even more telling than my own experiences are the field reports here and the tendency of every man who escapes America to run through women abroad when he could just as easily hold onto something worth having in these "paradises" and go old school.

Until we stop wanting to have our cake and eat it too (also a major flaw of feminists, ironically), it'll be hard for mainstream society to take us seriously on the so-called issues.

Fortunately, when you throw all the "we want change" facade out the window, we're really just all about enjoying life on our own terms, as we should be. So I'm not really worried about it much. But I hardly think worrying about women like the one mentioned in the OP (who is, again, a rarity) is consistent with most of our actions or beliefs either, as much as we pretend that's the case.

In any case, game on. But sometimes I think we could do with putting away the tissues on the "women are spoiled" mantra. As much as I lament some of what we've lost as a society, I don't know that I'm (we're) deserving of much more than I've (we've) been given, to be honest. Either way, I'll take it all on my own terms and enjoy it as it comes.

Such is.

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #23

My opinion after reading this is that she's either deluded about how good-looking she is or has such an aberrant personality it would take a saint-like Beta to deal with her for more than a bang or three. Here's why:

My whole life people have told me I could get any man I want, meaning a rich man, and are shocked that I’m engaged to my fiancé, nice though he is. I’ve never dated a rich man, but it does make me curious.

You'll notice she says "people have told me" not "men have been asking me out." This means it's her friends telling her that. Females tend to compliment other females on looks when they're NOT really attractive because it means lack of competition (you can see this happen whenever a woman gets an ugly short haircut and other women gush).

Anyway, if this woman was really hot she'd mention how other women hated her but men obsessively asked her out. The true sign of a really hot woman is when other women hate her -- and she knows it.