Post: #1

These are just a couple of ramblings on my personal life experiences as well as my observations of the manosphere, pua, etc.

It seems that most men can be divided up into four different types:

1) Men of high actual value, and high perceived value – This is what the Manosphere teaches. Roosh made great headway with his book Bang, and the manosphere has expanded to include plenty of blogs which expel the virtues of actually improving your value as a man. They teach you to improve your health, fitness, wealth, leadership capabilities, and overall value. Some of the common tips include working out, increasing testosterone, working for yourself or improving your career standing. They also motivate you to get out in the world and approach women and become more comfortable in your own skin.

2) Men of low actual value, but high perceived value – This is PUA in a nutshell. Using gimmicks, routines, cocky/funny, fake arrogance, AMOGing, etc. These guys get very good at picking up easier women, get laid from time to time, and give credence to the fact that no matter who you are, approaching enough will eventually get you laid. However, I have yet to find a PUA book that actually talks about becoming a man of value and creating value for the world around you. They are paper tigers.

3) Men of high actual value, but low perceived value – These are the guys that, despite being in great shape, having tons of hobbies, constantly improving themselves, lots of money, stable career, etc. have no luck in getting with the quality of woman that they desire because they simply don’t create for themselves or others the perception that they are worth anyones time. Sometimes this is due to low confidence, but sometimes it is also due to being raised in an environment that punishes masculinity. These are also the guys that can go from not being laid in years to being laid on a regular basis after simply being forced to make the approaches and calibrate accordingly.

4) Men of low actual and perceived value – These are the sad, looked-over omegas of the world. They do not better themselves in anyway, they don’t do approaches, and they usually work at the lower rungs of society-maintaining careers for the duration of their lives. They are generally bitter, cynical, and just don’t have much hope. Chances are if you are reading this, this doesn’t apply to you because you at least have the desire to improve yourself. These are also not people that you should be friends with. It sounds harsh, but avoid them at all costs.


Another observation that I’ve had out in the world, that Roosh touches on from time to time, but does not go into depth on often, is the overlooked importance of social value (friends), and specifically male friends. One of the things I’ve noticed is that groups of guys (of value) tend to attract groups of girls. This can be seen on college campuses at pretty much any fraternity party. Hate all you want, but fraternities generally attract large pools of girls, creating more opportunities for guys of value. A great overview of this can be found in the book “The way of Men” by Jack Donovan. Having a group of guy friends can help immensely by giving you social value. You can see this with gangs (lowly gang members are getting laid more than rich CPA’s all over, sports teams (athletes tend to bond, and are usually all improving themselves constantly), fraternities, biker clubs, etc. Now, don’t misunderstand me. I’m not advocating social circle game. What I’m saying is that I’ve observed plenty of guys with zero game score simply because they were president of their fraternity, rode weekly with their motorcycle club, etc. Also, having guy friends is going to help you improve your life and motivate you WAY more than female friends ever could.

Anyways, these are just some thoughts I‘ve been embellishing. I’m curious to hear your viewpoints, especially opposing viewpoints.

Post: #2

The one thing I'd counter with is that most of the omegas I know are happy as fuck. Happier than me, even. It's a hybrid omega because they're not dorky or shut-in. In fact, they look forward to events like outdoor music festivals, pub crawls, charity 5k's, etc WAYYY more than I do. They have active social lives and are always super happy and positive, it's just that they are asexual (or at least do an incredible job of hiding their sexual frustrations). They definitely have more friends and even female friends than I do - it's just that they NEVER hook up, NEVER go to the gym, NEVER worry about their social status (clothes, car, living situation), NEVER try new haircuts or looks, etc.

I could never live that way but it seems to work for the happy omegas/asexual betas that I know.

Post: #3

It makes sense to analyze this, but I think your categories still need some work.

Active game vs passive game is one concept that makes sense to me.

In your OP you chose actual value vs perceived value. It's almost as if you want to rationalize away certain accomplishments ("perceived value") and favor others.

Look at the nice guy's lament that he's a good catch but can't get the girl. It's a manosphere cliche. We know that a cynical dick with highly developed social skills can tool the nice guy socially. Cynical dick will set up traps that the nice guy walks straight into, and should be able to get the girl because of that.

What game can offer that guy is a cold dose of reality. It tells him he's working on the wrong assumptions and needs to aspire to a different package of competencies. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link.

The ability to approach fearlessly, hold a frame, impress a group - social value - is real, tangible, enduring value to a woman. It will make her friends jealous of her and make her feel proud that you're with her.

I think at least you could use better names for your categories. Because in the end the woman is the one who adjudicates on value, even if she doesn't exactly understand how. So if perceived value trumps actual value - according to how you defined it - then you have definitions that don't accurately represent reality.

Post: #4

Agree with Tigre.

Quote:2) Men of low actual value, but high perceived value

This distinction doesn't make much sense, because having high percieved value IS ACTUAL VALUE.

Think about it. Why do successful salesmen make so much money? They have no technical skills. They cannot build the product. Yet they can get people to buy it. All salesmen have is high perceived value. Yet it translates into real world cash.

Never underestimate the skill of being able to manipulate the perceptions of others. It's extremely valuable, just as valuable as owning real estate or hitting the gym.

In a way, having active game is it's own form of passive game, since building strong active game takes so much time.

EDIT: Roissy wrote a post about this. http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2010/07/2...wn-status/

Post: #5

(05-23-2013 01:33 PM)HoustonRookie Wrote:  Another observation that I’ve had out in the world, that Roosh touches on from time to time, but does not go into depth on often, is the overlooked importance of social value (friends), and specifically male friends. One of the things I’ve noticed is that groups of guys (of value) tend to attract groups of girls. This can be seen on college campuses at pretty much any fraternity party. Hate all you want, but fraternities generally attract large pools of girls, creating more opportunities for guys of value. A great overview of this can be found in the book “The way of Men” by Jack Donovan. Having a group of guy friends can help immensely by giving you social value. You can see this with gangs (lowly gang members are getting laid more than rich CPA’s all over, sports teams (athletes tend to bond, and are usually all improving themselves constantly), fraternities, biker clubs, etc. Now, don’t misunderstand me. I’m not advocating social circle game. What I’m saying is that I’ve observed plenty of guys with zero game score simply because they were president of their fraternity, rode weekly with their motorcycle club, etc. Also, having guy friends is going to help you improve your life and motivate you WAY more than female friends ever could.

I don't want to answer for Roosh, but I am guessing that Roosh doesn't talk about this stuff because it usually falls under the umbrella of "younger guy Game".

When you get older, you lose a lot of your crew to drug overdoses, prison, marriage, attrition, fatigue, and fools you cut out of your life. Some people just fade away.

Add to that the travelers life of an International Playboy, and you often find yourself with very little peers.

That all being said, there is no doubt that when you are younger, having a big crew is one of the best things you can do.

And I don't think anyone really hates on Fraternities here, that is one of the most proven ways to success on the college campus (depending on the school of course).

Post: #6

delete

Post: #7

Its true that as you get older that your crew diminishes, and that if you travel full time it can even diminish to nothing. I've long felt that was a deficit in my personal life, and one that I tried to fill with internet socializing.

But I've stumbled upon a new plan which seems to work fantastically well - building up a crew of like minded men to work and travel and even live in the same compounds together to focus on building up wealth and lifestyle. I think this type of thing can be next big manosphere step. It's working great out here, and I'd suggest it to others to give a go.

Business can be a great way to build brotherhood bonds, especially when the businesses are all with a mind to the lifestyle that they will enable. Really - it's an enormous quality of life improvement to work in a crew.

We can do that at any age - the older among us are in a better position to be the seed and catalyst and offer direction for the younger to gather, so age is no excuse.

And a manosphere 3.0 crew can also work as a team to lockdown the chosen hot spots in the cities it inhabits. Teamwork is a forgotten manly art, isn't it? Not for long it won't be. This is our next step.

Post: #8

(05-23-2013 02:57 PM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  Add to that the travelers life of an International Playboy, and you often find yourself with very little peers.

This is the truth, although being a traveler brings its own status with it. You do tend to get a free pass on not having social proof.

Post: #9

I like both Houstonrookie's and Samseaus ideas about low actual value, but high perceived value, and I think they are both right. That can be imagined by imagining different domains of value, and also by imagining that some of the more narcissistic charms have a tendency to lose their effect as the masks are seen through; they are of more temporary value.

Samseau does correctly point out that charisma is a value in and of itself. And in some situations value in other areas won't compete well with charisma. And some of us have pointed out that the non-charismatic values are also sometimes pre-requisites even for an interview with some girls - socialites for instance. So visualizing different domains of value in a multicolored overlapping venn diagram works as a decent mental map that allows to see both Samseau's and Houstonrookie's ideas as true.

Post: #10

(05-23-2013 03:58 PM)xsplat Wrote:  Its true that as you get older that your crew diminishes, and that if you travel full time it can even diminish to nothing. I've long felt that was a deficit in my personal life, and one that I tried to fill with internet socializing.

But I've stumbled upon a new plan which seems to work fantastically well - building up a crew of like minded men to work and travel and even live in the same compounds together to focus on building up wealth and lifestyle. I think this type of thing can be next big manosphere step. It's working great out here, and I'd suggest it to others to give a go.

Business can be a great way to build brotherhood bonds, especially when the businesses are all with a mind to the lifestyle that they will enable. Really - it's an enormous quality of life improvement to work in a crew.

We can do that at any age - the older among us are in a better position to be the seed and catalyst and offer direction for the younger to gather, so age is no excuse.

And a manosphere 3.0 crew can also work as a team to lockdown the chosen hot spots in the cities it inhabits. Teamwork is a forgotten manly art, isn't it? Not for long it won't be. This is our next step.

Yep, it's what we've done too, we've got a business and we're working towards the enlargement of that