As an English guy I was against the vote for Scotland to leave the union.


Until I saw the bit where the likes of Labour and Lib Dems would get wiped out if Scotland went the way of the Dodo.

UKIP & Tories would be a much more pleasant duo than those two. So hurry up Scotland, make England a better place.

(09-04-2014 10:15 AM)Deluge Wrote:  Northern Ireland joining Scotland could never happen unless something crazy were to occur like an ethnic cleansing of Catholics. The Catholics would never let themselves be joined to Scotland instead of Ireland if they were to break free of the U.K. A Gaelic Confederation between Ireland and Scotland would be even more insane considering the history of Irish independence. Basically, any change to the political status of Northern Ireland would result in sectarian violence.

Protestants and Catholics in Belfast still live segregated lives from each other. They live in separate neighbourhoods, send their children to separate schools and rarely marry out (15% intermarriage rate). The borders between Protestant and Catholic neighbourhoods are even separated by walls called "peace lines". A majority of people from both sides don't even go to church, rather's its nationality that drives the divide. Protestants see themselves as British, and Catholics see themselves as Irish. Any change to the status quo reached at the Good Friday Agreement will lead to violence unless the two communities truly integrate, which is just not happening so far.

I hope that you realise that the polarised/sectarian nature of current Northern Ireland is a direct consequence of English meddling over the centuries.

The integration is unlikely to ever happen, because of the centuries of turmoil that has caused conflict to become ingrained within the minds of the population. See the Israeli-Palestinian conflict for another example.

Not trying to divert this interesting thread, just feel that your informative post needed a slight clarification.

(09-05-2014 06:26 PM)Trev Wrote:  

(09-04-2014 10:15 AM)Deluge Wrote:  Northern Ireland joining Scotland could never happen unless something crazy were to occur like an ethnic cleansing of Catholics. The Catholics would never let themselves be joined to Scotland instead of Ireland if they were to break free of the U.K. A Gaelic Confederation between Ireland and Scotland would be even more insane considering the history of Irish independence. Basically, any change to the political status of Northern Ireland would result in sectarian violence.

Protestants and Catholics in Belfast still live segregated lives from each other. They live in separate neighbourhoods, send their children to separate schools and rarely marry out (15% intermarriage rate). The borders between Protestant and Catholic neighbourhoods are even separated by walls called "peace lines". A majority of people from both sides don't even go to church, rather's its nationality that drives the divide. Protestants see themselves as British, and Catholics see themselves as Irish. Any change to the status quo reached at the Good Friday Agreement will lead to violence unless the two communities truly integrate, which is just not happening so far.

I hope that you realise that the polarised/sectarian nature of current Northern Ireland is a direct consequence of English meddling over the centuries.

The integration is unlikely to ever happen, because of the centuries of turmoil that has caused conflict to become ingrained within the minds of the population. See the Israeli-Palestinian conflict for another example.

Not trying to divert this interesting thread, just feel that your informative post needed a slight clarification.

There is only one way to end the conflict in the 6 counties/North of Ireland: erase the border and return the country to its normal, natural state that's existed for thousands of years before Britain starting poking it's nose in.

The problems in the North will never end, ever, until the throbbing boil of partition is lanced.

It will painful, and there will be bloodshed even if it happens by democratic means, but there is no other way.

And if Scotland becomes independent, NI's position within the UK will become untenable. Loyalists assertion that they are "British" (which is pretty silly anyways) will have no credibility in a fragile union with England and Wales (and you can be sure if Scotland goes, the Welsh will soon follow).

NI can't survive or exist on it's own for economic and political reasons, leaving only one option, a return to Ireland's default original state.

Those who would vote YES are doing so despite the immediate political and economic dangers because this, their single historical chance for independence from the irretrievable political landscape of Westminster that is utterly at odds with Scottish political and cultural sensibilities, is worth any short term potential price.

Bring on the 18th September.

(09-06-2014 09:40 AM)davyjose Wrote:  

(09-05-2014 06:26 PM)Trev Wrote:  

(09-04-2014 10:15 AM)Deluge Wrote:  Northern Ireland joining Scotland could never happen unless something crazy were to occur like an ethnic cleansing of Catholics. The Catholics would never let themselves be joined to Scotland instead of Ireland if they were to break free of the U.K. A Gaelic Confederation between Ireland and Scotland would be even more insane considering the history of Irish independence. Basically, any change to the political status of Northern Ireland would result in sectarian violence.

Protestants and Catholics in Belfast still live segregated lives from each other. They live in separate neighbourhoods, send their children to separate schools and rarely marry out (15% intermarriage rate). The borders between Protestant and Catholic neighbourhoods are even separated by walls called "peace lines". A majority of people from both sides don't even go to church, rather's its nationality that drives the divide. Protestants see themselves as British, and Catholics see themselves as Irish. Any change to the status quo reached at the Good Friday Agreement will lead to violence unless the two communities truly integrate, which is just not happening so far.

I hope that you realise that the polarised/sectarian nature of current Northern Ireland is a direct consequence of English meddling over the centuries.

The integration is unlikely to ever happen, because of the centuries of turmoil that has caused conflict to become ingrained within the minds of the population. See the Israeli-Palestinian conflict for another example.

Not trying to divert this interesting thread, just feel that your informative post needed a slight clarification.

There is only one way to end the conflict in the 6 counties/North of Ireland: erase the border and return the country to its normal, natural state that's existed for thousands of years before Britain starting poking it's nose in.

The problems in the North will never end, ever, until the throbbing boil of partition is lanced.

It will painful, and there will be bloodshed even if it happens by democratic means, but there is no other way.

And if Scotland becomes independent, NI's position within the UK will become untenable. Loyalists assertion that they are "British" (which is pretty silly anyways) will have no credibility in a fragile union with England and Wales (and you can be sure if Scotland goes, the Welsh will soon follow).

NI can't survive or exist on it's own for economic and political reasons, leaving only one option, a return to Ireland's default original state.

The 6 counties of Ireland were never '1' state before the English arrived, it's a similar story to India for example.

Scotland on course to vote Yes, shock poll reveals:

http://www.itv.com/news/2014-09-06/scotl...l-reveals/

Correct me if I am wrong but the vast majority of Scotts are fairly socialist.
So I don't think it would be unreasonable to expect the aftermath of their independence to be another nail in the coffin of that ideology.

Also, we can see where Labour's immigration priorities lie
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...-edge.html

(09-06-2014 12:56 PM)bojangles Wrote:  The 6 counties of Ireland were never '1' state before the English arrived, it's a similar story to India for example.

Not sure what you mean Bojangles.

There are 32 counties in Ireland as a whole, North and South, but only 6 in the state of NI. Hence my referral to the "6 counties".

If you mean Ireland was a divided country previous to 1921, comparable to India/Pakistan then you are wrong.

So called "British" unionists in the North were perfectly happy to call themselves Irish and celebrate their Irish identity previous to Home Rule.

There was never any mention of partition, or splitting the country in half from anyone.

It was only that when Independence and "Home Rule" for the country became a reality after WW1 that Protestants in the North kicked up a fuss, threatening all sorts of chaos if Ireland became independent and left the Union.

Their thinking was because Catholics made up 80% of the population in Ireland "Home Rule would mean Rome Rule", and the religious freedoms they enjoyed under the Union would become a thing of the past (they actually had a point there, but that's for another discussion).

But instead of telling them to put up with independence because they were democratically vastly outnumbered, Britain instead decided to placate Unionists by giving them their own state, which would come to be known as "Northern Ireland".

Solely on the basis of a sectarian headcount, the British drew a line in the sand from Newry in the North East to Donegal/Derry in the North West, a border which was deliberately designed to give Unionists a perpetual majority (until today that is, where it's now close to 50-50).

Hence why the border looks somewhat "unnatural", with County Donegal (which is as much of an Ulster county as any in NI) on the North Western seaboard excluded from this new state because it had a majority Catholic population.

So yes, the final result was similar to India/Pakistan.

But the formation of NI was precipitated solely by Unionism's bullying and temper tantrums, and refusal to accept the democratic will of the people of Ireland.

And not a whole lot has changed to be honest. They're still at it, with their sectarian marches, flag protests, and hate filled politics.

Quick aside (and it's somewhat pedantic), but to refer to NI as "Ulster" is completely erroneous. There are 9 counties in Ulster, but 3 reside in the Republic (Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan). The remaining 6 make up the state known as NI.

No Ireland was divided prior to British invasion, that's what I mean. There was never a single state of 'Ireland', even the 'High King's of Ireland' did not have a hold over the whole island. In that respects it similar to before the British started their conquest of India, which had never been a single state.

There was no natural state and you misread my post the keywords being 'before the English arrived', you're talking about partition after the British left both states.

(09-07-2014 05:19 AM)bojangles Wrote:  No Ireland was divided prior to British invasion, that's what I mean. There was never a single state of 'Ireland', even the 'High King's of Ireland' did not have a hold over the whole island. In that respects it similar to before the British started their conquest of India, which had never been a single state.

There was no natural state and you misread my post the keywords being 'before the English arrived', you're talking about partition after the British left both states.

There's been a shit load of different tribes who ran their each individual shows, like the Fitzgeralds in Munster and the O'Neills in Ulster, but that's about the size of it.

So yes, you're correct in there was never anyone to bring all these clans together to form a single state (up until the Flight of the Earls in the 1600's anyways)

But there was always a single Irish identity that ran common between everyone that's lived there.

And there was never a political border to delineate two separate, distinct nations(The UK and Republic of Ireland).

Tribal divisions sure. Political divisions like we see today, no.

This is what I mean when I refer to a "natural state" (perhaps my language wasn't as succinct as it might have been, but how and ever..)

I'm talking politically, as opposed to whatever might have gone on along tribal lines.

Yes thats the same as India however it does not guarantee statedom or 'oneness' which the Scottish undoubtedly had!

Yes vote suddenly ahead in the polls one week out !!

The Queen will be devastated.

Cameron's legacy will be ruined

Milliband will lose a key Labour heartland forever

Lib Dems have key support in Scotland that will also go

A Labour government would never oversee a Scottish Independence transition, as they'd lose 50 seats if Scotland left.

UK In "Full Panic Mode", Rains Brimstone, Bribes On Scotland As "Yes" To Independence Poll Crosses 50%:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-09-07...ce-poll-cr

I hope the Scottish people see sense and decide to stay in the union. The UK is stronger altogether rather then as separate countries.

If they do leave, would the Union Jack be changed to remove St. Andrew's Cross?

(09-07-2014 03:04 PM)Que enspastic Wrote:  The Queen will be devastated.

Cameron's legacy will be ruined

Milliband will lose a key Labour heartland forever

Lib Dems have key support in Scotland that will also go

In the short term a Yes vote will increase Labour's lead in the polls for the election next year since the English will blame Cameron for it, remember Scotland will still be in the Union then. In the long-term however Labour will need to run with more Blairite policies. Even without Scotland Blair himself still have would have won all 3 of his elections.

(09-07-2014 07:46 PM)RexImperator Wrote:  If they do leave, would the Union Jack be changed to remove St. Andrew's Cross?

Earlier this year The Atlantic wrote this article about hypothetical new flags for the UK.

What will Scotland be post independence? A republic? or still a monarchy?

(09-08-2014 06:23 AM)bojangles Wrote:  What will Scotland be post independence? A republic? or still a monarchy?

They're keeping the monarchy.

Can someone just punch someone already?

(09-08-2014 07:12 AM)Deluge Wrote:  

(09-08-2014 06:23 AM)bojangles Wrote:  What will Scotland be post independence? A republic? or still a monarchy?

They're keeping the monarchy.

so the Queen will be still be Head of State, nice touch as I always think of the Royals as the Scottish royals due to the Stuarts. Though of course with the Hannoverians and Stuart descent from the Tudors, its not that simple