Post: #26

(04-29-2013 02:53 AM)InternationPlayboy Wrote:  

(04-29-2013 02:30 AM)Teedub Wrote:  

(04-29-2013 01:15 AM)InternationPlayboy Wrote:  If America didn't pull the weight for Europe in the 2nd world war, Europeans would be wearing swastikas right now.

We'd probably be speaking Russian actually. Hitler committed warfare suicide by attacking the Soviets and opening up a second front.

Let's not downplay Americas role though. It was a big turning point. England was in serious bad shape by the time we entered the war and Hitler had taken over most of Europe and Northern Africa at that point.

IP I think what Teedub is trying to say here is that if good ole MURICA' didn't enter the Euro theatre of the war, the Soviets would have continued to push towards past Germany in order to fully defeat and "liberate" German controlled West Europe.


I always like to think how strong Nazi Germany would have been had they properly used their human resources available and ran a somewhate efficient system.
They mismanaged their gains in EE and didn't properly use Western Europeans to their advantage.

Post: #27

I'm just going to copy & paste this from the last time we had this discussion.

Europe does have a lot to be thankful for regarding this time perioD. But not so much for the military intervention (which was triggered by Germany declaring war on the US, previous to this the US didn't want to enter the war) as The Marshall Plan which truly saved central Europe from communism.

Post: #28

(04-29-2013 03:04 PM)Emancipator Wrote:  

(04-29-2013 02:53 AM)InternationPlayboy Wrote:  

(04-29-2013 02:30 AM)Teedub Wrote:  

(04-29-2013 01:15 AM)InternationPlayboy Wrote:  If America didn't pull the weight for Europe in the 2nd world war, Europeans would be wearing swastikas right now.

We'd probably be speaking Russian actually. Hitler committed warfare suicide by attacking the Soviets and opening up a second front.

Let's not downplay Americas role though. It was a big turning point. England was in serious bad shape by the time we entered the war and Hitler had taken over most of Europe and Northern Africa at that point.

IP I think what Teedub is trying to say here is that if good ole MURICA' didn't enter the Euro theatre of the war, the Soviets would have continued to push towards past Germany in order to fully defeat and "liberate" German controlled West Europe.


I always like to think how strong Nazi Germany would have been had they properly used their human resources available and ran a somewhate efficient system.
They mismanaged their gains in EE and didn't properly use Western Europeans to their advantage.

I get that, but I don't agree with it. England was fucked had the US not entered the war. They would have probably fallen pretty damn fast, which would have focused the german army primarily on SU rather than both the SU and GB. The SU was in big trouble as well. Germany had invaded much of its territory and was pushing towards moscow. Had they not been fighting the war in GB, there's a good chance they would have taken Moscow.

Post: #29

It seems possible that if Germany had won the Battle of Britain - the Holocaust would never have happened...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madagascar_Plan

Post: #30

What I find interesting that a lot of the groundwork for WWII occurred right after WWI. The Treaty of Versailles. I read this book a few years ago. Super detailed and long but it lays out how many of the world's problems stem from just the mishandling after WWI.

http://www.amazon.com/Paris-1919-Months-...0375760520

Post: #31

HL Mencken even wrote about how the treaty of Versailles basically ensured that WWII would happen.

Post: #32

Here is a good quick article on Keynes who basically said the Germans would be fucked under the agreement.

At the Palace of Versailles outside Paris, Germany signs the Treaty of Versailles with the Allies, officially ending World War I. The English economist John Maynard Keynes, who had attended the peace conference but then left in protest of the treaty, was one of the most outspoken critics of the punitive agreement. In his The Economic Consequences of the Peace, published in December 1919, Keynes predicted that the stiff war reparations and other harsh terms imposed on Germany by the treaty would lead to the financial collapse of the country, which in turn would have serious economic and political repercussions on Europe and the world.

By the fall of 1918, it was apparent to the leaders of Germany that defeat was inevitable in World War I. After four years of terrible attrition, Germany no longer had the men or resources to resist the Allies, who had been given a tremendous boost by the infusion of American manpower and supplies. In order to avert an Allied invasion of Germany, the German government contacted U.S. President Woodrow Wilson in October 1918 and asked him to arrange a general armistice. Earlier that year, Wilson had proclaimed his "Fourteen Points," which proposed terms for a "just and stable peace" between Germany and its enemies. The Germans asked that the armistice be established along these terms, and the Allies more or less complied, assuring Germany of a fair and unselfish final peace treaty. On November 11, 1918, the armistice was signed and went into effect, and fighting in World War I came to an end.

In January 1919, John Maynard Keynes traveled to the Paris Peace Conference as the chief representative of the British Treasury. The brilliant 35-year-old economist had previously won acclaim for his work with the Indian currency and his management of British finances during the war. In Paris, he sat on an economic council and advised British Prime Minister David Lloyd George, but the important peacemaking decisions were out of his hands, and President Wilson, Prime Minister Lloyd George, and French Prime Minister Georges Clemenceau wielded the real authority. Germany had no role in the negotiations deciding its fate, and lesser Allied powers had little responsibility in the drafting of the final treaty.

It soon became apparent that the treaty would bear only a faint resemblance to the Fourteen Points that had been proposed by Wilson and embraced by the Germans. Wilson, a great idealist, had few negotiating skills, and he soon buckled under the pressure of Clemenceau, who hoped to punish Germany as severely as it had punished France in the Treaty of Frankfurt that ended the Franco-Prussian War in 1871. Lloyd George took the middle ground between the two men, but he backed the French plan to force Germany to pay reparations for damages inflicted on Allied civilians and their property. Since the treaty officially held Germany responsible for the outbreak of World War I (in reality it was only partially responsible), the Allies would not have to pay reparations for damages they inflicted on German civilians.

The treaty that began to emerge was a thinly veiled Carthaginian Peace, an agreement that accomplished Clemenceau's hope to crush France's old rival. According to its terms, Germany was to relinquish 10 percent of its territory. It was to be disarmed, and its overseas empire taken over by the Allies. Most detrimental to Germany's immediate future, however, was the confiscation of its foreign financial holdings and its merchant carrier fleet. The German economy, already devastated by the war, was thus further crippled, and the stiff war reparations demanded ensured that it would not soon return to its feet. A final reparations figure was not agreed upon in the treaty, but estimates placed the amount in excess of $30 billion, far beyond Germany's capacity to pay. Germany would be subject to invasion if it fell behind on payments.

Keynes, horrified by the terms of the emerging treaty, presented a plan to the Allied leaders in which the German government be given a substantial loan, thus allowing it to buy food and materials while beginning reparations payments immediately. Lloyd George approved the "Keynes Plan," but President Wilson turned it down because he feared it would not receive congressional approval. In a private letter to a friend, Keynes called the idealistic American president "the greatest fraud on earth." On June 5, 1919, Keynes wrote a note to Lloyd George informing the prime minister that he was resigning his post in protest of the impending "devastation of Europe."

The Germans initially refused to sign the Treaty of Versailles, and it took an ultimatum from the Allies to bring the German delegation to Paris on June 28. It was five years to the day since the assassination of Archduke Francis Ferdinand, which began the chain of events that led to the outbreak of World War I. Clemenceau chose the location for the signing of the treaty: the Hall of Mirrors in Versailles Palace, site of the signing of the Treaty of Frankfurt that ended the Franco-Prussian War. At the ceremony, General Jan Christiaan Smuts, soon to be president of South Africa, was the only Allied leader to protest formally the Treaty of Versailles, saying it would do grave injury to the industrial revival of Europe.

At Smuts' urging, Keynes began work on The Economic Consequences of the Peace. It was published in December 1919 and was widely read. In the book, Keynes made a grim prophecy that would have particular relevance to the next generation of Europeans: "If we aim at the impoverishment of Central Europe, vengeance, I dare say, will not limp. Nothing can then delay for very long the forces of Reaction and the despairing convulsions of Revolution, before which the horrors of the later German war will fade into nothing, and which will destroy, whoever is victor, the civilisation and the progress of our generation."

Germany soon fell hopelessly behind in its reparations payments, and in 1923 France and Belgium occupied the industrial Ruhr region as a means of forcing payment. In protest, workers and employers closed down the factories in the region. Catastrophic inflation ensued, and Germany's fragile economy began quickly to collapse. By the time the crash came in November 1923, a lifetime of savings could not buy a loaf of bread. That month, the Nazi Party led by Adolf Hitler launched an abortive coup against Germany's government. The Nazis were crushed and Hitler was imprisoned, but many resentful Germans sympathized with the Nazis and their hatred of the Treaty of Versailles.

A decade later, Hitler would exploit this continuing bitterness among Germans to seize control of the German state. In the 1930s, the Treaty of Versailles was significantly revised and altered in Germany's favor, but this belated amendment could not stop the rise of German militarism and the subsequent outbreak of World War II.

In the late 1930s, John Maynard Keynes gained a reputation as the world's foremost economist by advocating large-scale government economic planning to keep unemployment low and markets healthy. Today, all major capitalist nations adhere to the key principles of Keynesian economics. He died in 1946.

Post: #33

I just took a course on WWII(needed an elective course) so this thread's timing is perfect.

The Nazis were not as far off from taking the Soviets out as most people would like to believe. Had Hitler not diverted forces from his center drive to the southern drive, they would had easily reached Moscow as there was little resistance in front of them. Hitler helping out Mussolini in Africa delayed Operation Barbarossa from starting by 6 months.

Post: #34

(04-29-2013 07:11 PM)NYJ Wrote:  I just took a course on WWII(needed an elective course) so this thread's timing is perfect.

The Nazis were not as far off from taking the Soviets out as most people would like to believe. Had Hitler not diverted forces from his center drive to the southern drive, they would had easily reached Moscow as there was little resistance in front of them. Hitler helping out Mussolini in Africa delayed Operation Barbarossa from starting by 6 months.

I also took a WWII course as well. Operation Barbarossa was scheduled for April of 1941 but because of the fighting in Africa Hitler delayed it all the way until June and had his soldiers wearing summer gear. Hitler believed that he would take over the Soviet Union before the winter hit, boy was he wrong. Those months really made the difference in the world.

Post: #35

(04-29-2013 07:28 PM)MidWest Wrote:  

(04-29-2013 07:11 PM)NYJ Wrote:  I just took a course on WWII(needed an elective course) so this thread's timing is perfect.

The Nazis were not as far off from taking the Soviets out as most people would like to believe. Had Hitler not diverted forces from his center drive to the southern drive, they would had easily reached Moscow as there was little resistance in front of them. Hitler helping out Mussolini in Africa delayed Operation Barbarossa from starting by 6 months.

I also took a WWII course as well. Operation Barbarossa was scheduled for April of 1941 but because of the fighting in Africa Hitler delayed it all the way until June and had his soldiers wearing summer gear. Hitler believed that he would take over the Soviet Union before the winter hit, boy was he wrong. Those months really made the difference in the world.

Yes,you are correct. It was delayed till June, I'm thinking 6 months for something else.

I also would like to talk about the Japs. Had they sent in a 3rd wave in at pearl harbor they would had completely decimated the naval base. This would had force US to move the whole entire fleet for repair entirely back to the west coast and more than likely the Japs would had taken Midway and ultimately the Pacific.

Fun fact: The Japanese remain the last nation to invade the US. They invaded two Alaskan Aleutian Islands to use as a distraction so that they can attack the Midway Islands. Obviously this failed miserably.

Post: #36

(04-29-2013 05:03 PM)InternationPlayboy Wrote:  

(04-29-2013 03:04 PM)Emancipator Wrote:  

(04-29-2013 02:53 AM)InternationPlayboy Wrote:  

(04-29-2013 02:30 AM)Teedub Wrote:  

(04-29-2013 01:15 AM)InternationPlayboy Wrote:  If America didn't pull the weight for Europe in the 2nd world war, Europeans would be wearing swastikas right now.

We'd probably be speaking Russian actually. Hitler committed warfare suicide by attacking the Soviets and opening up a second front.

Let's not downplay Americas role though. It was a big turning point. England was in serious bad shape by the time we entered the war and Hitler had taken over most of Europe and Northern Africa at that point.

IP I think what Teedub is trying to say here is that if good ole MURICA' didn't enter the Euro theatre of the war, the Soviets would have continued to push towards past Germany in order to fully defeat and "liberate" German controlled West Europe.


I always like to think how strong Nazi Germany would have been had they properly used their human resources available and ran a somewhate efficient system.
They mismanaged their gains in EE and didn't properly use Western Europeans to their advantage.

I get that, but I don't agree with it. England was fucked had the US not entered the war. They would have probably fallen pretty damn fast, which would have focused the german army primarily on SU rather than both the SU and GB. The SU was in big trouble as well. Germany had invaded much of its territory and was pushing towards moscow. Had they not been fighting the war in GB, there's a good chance they would have taken Moscow.

The British managed to successfully defend themselves prior to American entry. Although American support and aid indirectly without a doubt helped countries such as SU and UK.

The SU still managed to move a large chunk of its industrial base east in order to protect them. It would have just been a matter of time for the SU as they produced more tanks faster than the Germans could.

Now if Germany managed to properly manage both physical resources and human resources in the Western Europe and Eastern Europe they would have been unstoppable. The Germans didn't manage the breadbasket that is Ukraine well enough, to the point where they were a shit ton of goods wasting and rotten because there wasn't proper infrastructure.

Post: #37

Are you kidding me? Britain was on it's hands and knees. A little longer and Britain would have fallen to the Germans without a doubt had the US not stepped in.

Look, there's shouldn't be much argument about this. The US played a major role in the Allies winning World War II. If you can't see that, then you need to re-read a world war two history book.

Post: #38

Hitler's Panzers East by RHS Stolfi details how Hitler ordered his army to cauldron some sizable but disorganized Soviet units in the south, wasting time that could have been used to take Moscow.

Britain spent too many resources on Bomber Command. Redirect the resources to The Battle of the Atlantic and Britain could have held on against Germany for some time. Once the USSR was in it, the UK's survival was guaranteed but it took the US to be able to onvade Europe.

Also, read up ont he percentages of Soviet equipment provided by the US. two thirds of the trucks and all of the reliable field telephone wire are just two components of Lend Lease.

Post: #39

(04-29-2013 08:05 PM)InternationPlayboy Wrote:  Are you kidding me? Britain was on it's hands and knees. A little longer and Britain would have fallen to the Germans without a doubt had the US not stepped in.

Look, there's shouldn't be much argument about this. The US played a major role in the Allies winning World War II. If you can't see that, then you need to re-read a world war two history book.

Why don't you yourself grab a few books, Britain won the Battle of Britain preventing Hitler from gaining aerial supremacy that was needed for a land invasion. How can you claim that they would have fallen a little longer when they successfully defended themselves for a full year following the BoB before the Muricans entered?

We aren't arguing whether or not the US played a major role in the Allied victory, because that is clear as day that they did, with aid and supply (lend-Lease) prior to full scale military commitment, the original thing we were arguing was following your claim that Europeans would be wearing swastikas, to witch Teedub replied with the fact that without American military intervention Europeans would be under a sea of Commy Red speaking Russian.

Reading might be a bit too hard for you InternationPlayboy, so I will recommend this Michael Caine movie on the BoB,
http://www.amazon.com/Battle-Britain-Mic...B00008PC0Y

Post: #40

(04-29-2013 08:05 PM)InternationPlayboy Wrote:  Are you kidding me? Britain was on it's hands and knees. A little longer and Britain would have fallen to the Germans without a doubt had the US not stepped in.

Look, there's shouldn't be much argument about this. The US played a major role in the Allies winning World War II. If you can't see that, then you need to re-read a world war two history book.

Hitler could have finished the British at Dunkirk and forced their surrender in the European Theater there. That was one of his biggest military blunders that cost him the war.

Post: #41

(04-29-2013 05:05 PM)cardguy Wrote:  It seems possible that if Germany had won the Battle of Britain - the Holocaust would never have happened...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madagascar_Plan

Watch out, is that illegal to say in the once Great Britain?

Post: #42

As far as the Battle of Britain goes, if the Nazi's had not moved their emphasis from the radar stations to terror bombing they likely would have wiped the RAF from the sky's.

Diverting the thrust on Moscow was also a fatal error. While the SU would have moved their government farther east, Moscow was the communications and transportation hub. Without it the Soviets would have been severely hamstrung.

Attempting to take Stalingrad was totally unnecessary and resulted in the devastation of the southern armies. The Wehrmacht reached the Volga north of the city before it was decided to take the city. Interdicting traffic on the Volga was all that was needed, which they could do without the city.

Just a few fuckups that can be laid at the feet of Hitler alone. If he had listened to his generals the Nazis would have likely crushed the Red Army.

Post: #43

(04-29-2013 08:05 PM)InternationPlayboy Wrote:  Are you kidding me? Britain was on it's hands and knees. A little longer and Britain would have fallen to the Germans without a doubt had the US not stepped in.

Look, there's shouldn't be much argument about this. The US played a major role in the Allies winning World War II. If you can't see that, then you need to re-read a world war two history book.

The history channel plays a lot of WWII documentaries. There was one talking about U Boats and Wolf Packs and how basically they had nearly starved Britain. One older lady starting crying as she spoke about how on the edge Britain was.

But please don't get me wrong I have mad respect for the British. I mean they fought hard against the German machine.

I blame 1) The Treaty of Versailles and 2) stupid American isolationists who wanted to turn a blind eye to the shit happening in Europe.

Of course, Bush decided to swing totally the other way and start one unjustifiable war.

On a total side note, remembering the Treaty of Versailles and how the victors got a little out on control, I get that it is Alpha to try and assert one as the lead dog etc. But it seems, logically, that just because you won, you need to handle the victory with a degree of class and logic. You treat people like shit, because you can or think you can, at some point people just say fuck it. Ask William Wallace.

Post: #44

This was another book I have read in the past that had some interesting points.

"How Hitler Could Have Won World War II: The Fatal Errors That Led to Nazi Defeat"

http://www.amazon.com/How-Hitler-Could-H...0609808443

Only 3 stars I probably would have gave it a slightly better score but it pointed out that he really f'd up on a few occasions.

Post: #45

(04-29-2013 07:11 PM)NYJ Wrote:  Hitler helping out Mussolini in Africa delayed Operation Barbarossa from starting by 6 months.

Germany had 3 divsions at most in Africa until october 1942. germany's commitment to Africa didn't impact on Barbarossa.

Germany delayed barbarossa because the Yugoslav regency that agreed to ally itself with Germany was overthrown and then then new government allied with Britain.

Germany invaded and that was the delay in Barbarossa.

Post: #46

(04-29-2013 08:33 PM)Hotwheels Wrote:  Just a few fuckups that can be laid at the feet of Hitler alone. If he had listened to his generals the Nazis would have likely crushed the Red Army.

Conversely, if left into the hands of the Generals, they would have implemented Fall Gelb and probably would have been crushed on the maginot line.

It was Hitler's direct intervention that implemented the Manstein plan for the invasion of France.

Post: #47

(04-29-2013 07:28 PM)MidWest Wrote:  I also took a WWII course as well. Operation Barbarossa was scheduled for April of 1941 but because of the fighting in Africa Hitler delayed it all the way until June and had his soldiers wearing summer gear. Hitler believed that he would take over the Soviet Union before the winter hit, boy was he wrong. Those months really made the difference in the world.

Africa had nothing to do with the delay of barbarossa, it was Yugoslavia no longer allying itself witht he Axis that meant the brunt of the barbarossa invasion force had to be refitted after invading Yugoslavia.

Post: #48

(04-29-2013 08:05 PM)InternationPlayboy Wrote:  Are you kidding me? Britain was on it's hands and knees. A little longer and Britain would have fallen to the Germans without a doubt had the US not stepped in.

Look, there's shouldn't be much argument about this. The US played a major role in the Allies winning World War II. If you can't see that, then you need to re-read a world war two history book.

You keep saying this, but just what does it mean? The UK (or the Commonwealth if you will) played a major role, as did the SU.

After Germany aborted Operation Sea Lion they no longer had the capacity to invade the British Isles so by what forces would the nation have "fallen"? By the time Germany declared war on the US Britain was no longer a strategic target.

Post: #49

(04-30-2013 12:17 AM)T and A Man Wrote:  It was Hitler's direct intervention that implemented the Manstein plan for the invasion of France.

Actually it wasn't known until later that Manstein had written the Blitzkrieg doctorine. Guderian laid it to the OKH and Hitler under his name in order for it to not be dismissed as Manstein was not a field marshal at this time.

And I don't know what you're on about regarding Case Yellow. If you just google it you’ll see that was the name for the attack through the Ardennes.

The OKH was on the right track and wanted a repeat of The Schliffen Plan from WWII. But they had not grasped the decisive impact of armor the way Manstein had. Funny enough Erich von Manstein drew most of his inspiration from the writing of Charles de Gaulle which had been dismissed in his own country.

Post: #50

(04-30-2013 05:10 AM)Vicious Wrote:  

(04-29-2013 08:05 PM)InternationPlayboy Wrote:  Are you kidding me? Britain was on it's hands and knees. A little longer and Britain would have fallen to the Germans without a doubt had the US not stepped in.

Look, there's shouldn't be much argument about this. The US played a major role in the Allies winning World War II. If you can't see that, then you need to re-read a world war two history book.

You keep saying this, but just what does it mean? The UK (or the Commonwealth if you will) played a major role, as did the SU.

After Germany aborted Operation Sea Lion they no longer had the capacity to invade the British Isles so by what forces would the nation have "fallen"? By the time Germany declared war on the US Britain was no longer a strategic target.

I get the feeling that in America, you are taught that America is number 1, was number 1 and always will be number 1. Whilst this may help with the continuation of ensuring the mindset a hyper-capitalist competitive society, it probably distorts historical events somewhat. Just look at Hollywood, you'd think America won every war single-handedly with no trauma or loss. It's a very jingoistic society. Especially in the 80's, although it did produce some fist-pumping cool films like Commando etc.