Post: #1

Hey guys,

I have a problem that's been eating at me for months. I just can't make a decision.

Breaks down like this:

I have a bachelor in IT / Web that basically secures me in the job market. I am taking a graduate degree abroad here in NYC for my pure interest in filmmaking. It is a two year master, and I am about to wrap up the second semester.

Points for quitting:
- I feel I am wasting my time. I have found that film schools are almost considered a joke in the industry.
- I have found out that I always learn the best way by actually being out there working instead of sitting in a class room.
- Most of my classmates are pretty much not worth the networking experience, and I crave for networking with actual talent out there.
- I enjoy traveling and would like to try to combine those two passions and then make films internationally.
- I will get more time to build up my two small businesses that I have on the side.
- I feel the school has given me what it can give me and the only thing it will provide me from now is reviewing projects that I will do in future classes and my thesis.
- I am paying a lot of tuition and the cost of living in NYC is universally recognized to be pretty high. It's hitting hard at my debt, basically.

Points for not quitting:
- Maybe able to earn more money with a Master, just for the sake of having a Master's diploma. Don't have any good examples though in the media industry.
- I get to stay in NYC for one more year. It is a great city.
- Since I am foreign I will have an international education diploma.
- New York has good events and people in film.

I just can't make up my mind, even though the pros for getting out seem to outnumber the ones for not doing so.

Care to throw in your 5 cents?

Thanks in advance!

Patience, persistence and perspiration make an unbeatable combination for success.

Napoleon Hill

Post: #2

Well. You may have been better off just moving to NYC to hustle and do film. I am passionate about music but I would not pay money to "learn" it. Learn what? Only practice make you better in three creative crafts, school cant teach you that.

Don't assume people will fall over to hire with Masters education. What is your portfolio like? Why would you be more beneficial then a person whom has 7 years of work behind them? There will be people your age whom have never stepped foot in a classroom but have a stacked resume and project list. Don't assume your masters has some great perceived value, this is a myth.


If I were you I would bullshit through the last year and just pass. Use the spare time to legit network and practice. Get as many projects as you can and use your schools facilities for resources and editing, as your schools best tools is the gear it has. Hustle that to get better projects and such.

Let this be a warning to every other seeking a creative arts degree. You can't pay to learn the stuff fully, it's always best to do it on your own and self-yeah through trial and error. Get to the point you can find a mentor and you will be fine.

Sart today getting the real world experience. This is what will get you where you want to be sooner in film.

Post: #3

What are you doing with your time outside of school? Don't assume that if you're doing nothing now, you will magically make stuff happen if you have more freedom in your schedule. Figure out what you want to do, decide if you can get it done while still in school. If so, stay and finish. If not, withdraw. But in either case, do it because of a larger purpose rather than a whim.

School eats all our souls, especially at this point in the term. Doesn't matter if you're studying movies, management, or mechanical engineering.

Any direction you go, rest assured that you will find excitement if you seek it out.

/5c

Post: #4

1) When you're lying there disabled at 80-90 whatever, what is the most important thing you want to be able to look back on and say "At least I got that one thing done."

2) Factor out money, you can't take it with you.

3) Does the pursuit you are on help or not with #1 based on what you know now?

4) If it's a draw, continue and finish just to learn how to be tough and complete things when you have doubts.

Post: #5

(04-22-2013 07:32 AM)iknowexactly Wrote:  2) Factor out money, you can't take it with you.

I disagree, especially if he has loans.

Getting a shitty degree that has zero impact on your life while getting in debt for at least 32k (32k is the average cost for a bachelor's degree from a state university where I live, just as an example) is a big deal. That's real money stolen from you.

Post: #6

(04-22-2013 08:02 AM)TheKantian Wrote:  

(04-22-2013 07:32 AM)iknowexactly Wrote:  2) Factor out money, you can't take it with you.

I disagree, especially if he has loans.

Getting a shitty degree that has zero impact on your life while getting in debt for at least 32k (32k is the average cost for a bachelor's degree from a state university where I live, just as an example) is a big deal. That's real money stolen from you.

ROI is important but un this guys case being international I assume if he does bail his visa would expire, or would it?

Finishing will get him that one year and depending on where is from another year post graduation.

As a poster mentioned above in regards to time, he will have to find time. You can't get good unless you put I'm the hours. But if it's his passion he will have no qualms in doing so. That's how you know your heart is in it.

Post: #7

Having worked in one film studio or another for the last 10 years I can tell you with a 95% certainty that for most positions your degree is pretty worthless. I had a history phd stuffing envelopes, MA in Film became an intern and couldn't cut it and a guy that never finished HS went on to become key grip and then moved to become the 1st AD. The senior editor never went to school either. I don't actually think we have one film school grad on staff now out of 30 or so

Post: #8

Is there any hybrid value in your two degrees? Does the film business have any use for IT, such as knowing how to direct high-quality marketing videos for companies that you work for? Or does the film industry job benefit from your IT abilities, like in digital workshops? I think that you should finish it because you've come this far, unless you think that the debt will burden you too much in the future. But I think it's a good investment from a personal point of view at least (can't speak for business one, I'm just speculating here).

Post: #9

I know very little about the workings of the film industry, but thought I'd point out one thing, and offer one suggestion.

No doubt most people who go to film schools don't actually end up being famous directors, but it does happen. The "sleeper" hit from a few years ago "District 9" was written and directed by a South African who is a graduate of the Vancouver Film School. So it does happen. Also, I'm sure film school DOES actually teach useful info. About how to direct action, set scenes and all manner of things. I think it's a bit naive to think you're going to learn all of these things just by making movies yourself with a camcorder.

There's obviously not a lot of room at the top. i.e. Actually making FILMS. But the content learned at film school is surely helpful in shooting video in general. With the internet and whatnot there are so many people shooting shockingly bad videos and hoping for some sort of commercial gain. A graduate from a film school who can't get work directly in the industry (I'm guessing this is more than 50% of graduates?) can still use their knowledge to help tell less exciting stories for bloggers and others who need to post video in order to stay competitive.

Post: #10

(04-22-2013 12:18 PM)calihunter Wrote:  Having worked in one film studio or another for the last 10 years I can tell you with a 95% certainty that for most positions your degree is pretty worthless. I had a history phd stuffing envelopes, MA in Film became an intern and couldn't cut it and a guy that never finished HS went on to become key grip and then moved to become the 1st AD. The senior editor never went to school either. I don't actually think we have one film school grad on staff now out of 30 or so

This is interesting. Do you have any ideas why this is? If Film Schools aren't reaching anything useful why are they there? As an outsider I would think that the process of putting a movie together is very complicated and would require specialised skills. Are you saying on the job training only is the best way to gain these?

I have no skin in the game. Am just curious.

Post: #11

Film school sounds like law school. Law school doesn't teach you how to practice law either.

Post: #12

(04-22-2013 01:48 PM)Menace Wrote:  Film school sounds like law school. Law school doesn't teach you how to practice law either.

Ehhhhhh... yeah it does. Just not nearly as well or as in-depth as it should.

Post: #13

They are not that dumb about giving out loans.
You have to be a citizen to get a loan.
You need to prove you have $$$ to even get student visa. If you are poor, you are not welcomed. Money works everywhere.

(04-22-2013 10:42 AM)kosko Wrote:  

(04-22-2013 08:02 AM)TheKantian Wrote:  

(04-22-2013 07:32 AM)iknowexactly Wrote:  2) Factor out money, you can't take it with you.

I disagree, especially if he has loans.

Getting a shitty degree that has zero impact on your life while getting in debt for at least 32k (32k is the average cost for a bachelor's degree from a state university where I live, just as an example) is a big deal. That's real money stolen from you.

ROI is important but un this guys case being international I assume if he does bail his visa would expire, or would it?

Finishing will get him that one year and depending on where is from another year post graduation.

As a poster mentioned above in regards to time, he will have to find time. You can't get good unless you put I'm the hours. But if it's his passion he will have no qualms in doing so. That's how you know your heart is in it.

Post: #14

(04-22-2013 01:37 PM)Bad Hussar Wrote:  

(04-22-2013 12:18 PM)calihunter Wrote:  Having worked in one film studio or another for the last 10 years I can tell you with a 95% certainty that for most positions your degree is pretty worthless. I had a history phd stuffing envelopes, MA in Film became an intern and couldn't cut it and a guy that never finished HS went on to become key grip and then moved to become the 1st AD. The senior editor never went to school either. I don't actually think we have one film school grad on staff now out of 30 or so

This is interesting. Do you have any ideas why this is? If Film Schools aren't reaching anything useful why are they there? As an outsider I would think that the process of putting a movie together is very complicated and would require specialised skills. Are you saying on the job training only is the best way to gain these?

I have no skin in the game. Am just curious.

Time in the classroom is not time in-front of a camera.

Like with music the 700hrs of 4 years worth of classroom time I could achieve in 30-60 days of practice.

Post: #15

Go to sites like dvxuser.com and indietalk.com, lots of people have asked this question.

The general consensus is - you will learn more and get more out of it taking all that tuition money and just make a film. The entertainment business is more about who you know (and are willing to help you - will get back to that in a second). What theories you have learned in your head are useless. Hustle is more valuable than education.

Back to the who you know - ya everyone says it is who you know, but that is just part of it. They actually need to give a shit about your life to want to help you. I know some people who are friends of "stars" and their friends don't do shit for them. Who wants to stick their neck out and if you suck it looks bad on them.

Hustle, real experience and hard work are your keys to success.

If you come to LA, don't bring the attitude (not saying you have one - just that there are so many already - be different!)

And what exactly do you want to do in the business? That may help you decided. And I don't think this is a question that can be answered with a pros and cons plus a point system approach. What does your gut tell you?

Good luck.

Post: #16

Thanks for all the answers thus far. I see the viewpoints. My head tells me to stick it out and finish. My gut has kept telling me for almost half a year to escape from the academic shackles. It's really, really hard.

Patience, persistence and perspiration make an unbeatable combination for success.

Napoleon Hill

Post: #17

Depends on your finances. If you got tuition covered it's a lot more fun to stay in school then have to hustle

Post: #18

At the beginning of this video Craig talks to a film school graduate (one of the kids)

http://youtu.be/bH4Xl_u71hw?t=1m20s

Post: #19

(04-22-2013 12:18 PM)calihunter Wrote:  Having worked in one film studio or another for the last 10 years I can tell you with a 95% certainty that for most positions your degree is pretty worthless. I had a history phd stuffing envelopes, MA in Film became an intern and couldn't cut it and a guy that never finished HS went on to become key grip and then moved to become the 1st AD. The senior editor never went to school either. I don't actually think we have one film school grad on staff now out of 30 or so

How would one get a job in a film studio? Do you have to know someone to get you in the door?

Post: #20

(04-24-2013 04:10 AM)houston Wrote:  

(04-22-2013 12:18 PM)calihunter Wrote:  Having worked in one film studio or another for the last 10 years I can tell you with a 95% certainty that for most positions your degree is pretty worthless. I had a history phd stuffing envelopes, MA in Film became an intern and couldn't cut it and a guy that never finished HS went on to become key grip and then moved to become the 1st AD. The senior editor never went to school either. I don't actually think we have one film school grad on staff now out of 30 or so

How would one get a job in a film studio? Do you have to know someone to get you in the door?

EDIT: Sorry Houston - I thought it was the original poster. Not meant toward you. But I still think what I said is relevant to anything in life. But especially the entertainment business. IF the OP was a woman I would suggest sleeping around. Or banging the female whales that have made their way up the ladder.
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Look I want you to do well, like I want everyone to do well on this forum. But this is all a question of hustle. It is not a how to, it is "I want it and I will get it at all costs." Through your hustle (some would call it intention and throw in some abundance thinking), you will meet people, find jobs, etc. Look I have never gone to film school but I am curious about the business. So I know of sites like Mandy.com, craigslist, dvxuser, indietalk. Those are the places you go to find out more. With respect to everyone here, the odds are you will not find a job through a forum mainly geared toward banging chicks.

In the Spring 2013 moviemaker magazine there was a quote by Morgan Spurlock. He said, "I was in film school with people far more talented than me, and today they're in the insurance or banking business. I was successful because I refused to give up."

Do you have that much passion for this business? Because it is a tough fucking business.

Read Craigslist LA Gigs - see how little some people offer for help. Then see all the angry people who are mad that all these noobs will work free and they start screaming about minimum wage, etc.

I went to a top - like no bs, a top Business School. But I know there are people from unknown business schools or no education at all that are kicking my ass in success. As we called it in b school - these people probably didn't have the right pedigree for banking or consulting, but they are outperforming. So it is all about how bad you want it. It is not about all the how to's etc.

But know this, it will not be given to you. Not in the field you are pursuing.

Post: #21

I own a company that does visual effects for features and television, about half my staff went to film school the other half just learned it over time and came to me with the necessary skill set. I don't really bother with resumes per se, I have to see their 'reel' basically work they've done so what film school they did or didnt go to is irrelevant based on their reel. Great film school, shit reel, no job...no film school, great reel, job...film school is one thing and one thing only, networking. Anything you need to get ahead in this industry can be learned without schooling but the networking potential you can't put a price on. I went to Vancouver Film school, my first 3 jobs were because students I had gone to school with recommended me. When I started my company, my first big contract was from a former student who went on to producing and signed us to do the work for all the films they had in the pipe for the next 2 years. I had a former teacher call me and tell me to talk to one of his students who was being offered money for his script, it got made, I got a production credit and paid by the studios for helping to get that made and all I did was advise him and on and on...what I've made from my connections from film school is infinitely more than the 35k it takes to go...that said...I've had some guys I went to film school who ended up tending bar, working at banks, and on and on so if you're cut out for this life then it can pay off, if you think it'd be a fun job then you're fucked, cause it's never ending work and the guys looking for fun crap out quick and they lose that chunk of money they put into school.