Post: #201

(07-24-2011 03:55 AM)Samseau Wrote:  IOI's are bullshit. some girls who were really into me never displayed any strong IOI's. I just talked to them and their interest was appearent.

I don't think that any method is 100% foolproof. "Some" (note the conspicuous lack of the word "most" or "all" in this spot-this is telling) girls may not show blatant IOIs to men they like (or they will be subtle enough for most guys to miss them). They'll try to suppress what they can in order to avoid being too obvious. Other girls will flirt with anyone, masking some IOIs and blunting the significance of the ones you do see. Still others will display blatant IOIs and go cold as soon as you approach(Ivies are filled with these).

I would, however, contend that, in the majority of cases, a female who is "really into you" is going to show it in one way or another. There are physical triggers that women cannot help but show when in the presence of men they are attracted to, just as men often signal to women their own interest. These things are hardwired.

IOIs are quite far from "bullshit".

Quote:so I do not believe there is any meaningful difference between cold/warm approaches,

1. One girl sends stares you down in the club, or (alternately) somehow finds herself next to you(body oriented consistently in your direction) several times over the course of the night, despite your being in a somewhat crowded place and moving around. She hasn't said a word to you yet. You approach her.

2. One girl is walking down the street or hanging out in a club with her friends, almost entirely oblivious to you. You approach her.

You don't see any difference here?

Quote:the bottom line is that you still talk to her as a stranger.

Interactions with strangers are more nuanced than you are making them out to be. Some strangers will naturally be more open to interaction than others for a wide variety of reasons.
All situations are not created equal.

Post: #202

There's nothing lost in going for the 2nd approach.
She'll make it clear enough she's not interested and not waste more than a minute of your time. if she doesn't want you around.
If she's lukewarm then you can try to escalate and see if she is into you or not. If she isn't then you move on.

Post: #203

(07-24-2011 05:48 AM)torontokid Wrote:  Exactly, Waiting for a girl to eyefuck is unreliable.

You know that eyefucking isn't the only IOI a girl can turn to, right? It is the most blatant, but there are many more.

You should also note that above average physical desirability(which precise physical traits constitute such status may vary slightly by location) will aid in getting more IOIs.
This strategy is more reliable for a better looking guy.

Quote:Different cultures signal interest differently. For example its rare for a girl in the daytime to look a guy in the eye in Toronto.

Learn of these differences* and make them work for you.
Knowledge is strength.

*Note: Some IOIs are biologically hardwired.

Quote:Warm approaches work best when girls have alcohol in them or in social circles. Or in places like Fargo.

Variation is real. No strategy is 100% foolproof in every corner of the Earth, just as no strategy will appeal or be applicable to every single person/culture. Humans are complex, and diversity is natural and unavoidable.

That's life-we just do the best we can to adapt to it. I am simply suggesting one particular adaptation that a) works well for me personally and culturally b) can probably work for many others, and should at least be illustrated in comparison to alternatives for this reason.

Make of it what you will.

Post: #204

(07-24-2011 07:03 AM)torontokid Wrote:  There's nothing lost in going for the 2nd approach.
She'll make it clear enough she's not interested and not waste more than a minute of your time. if she doesn't want you around.
If she's lukewarm then you can try to escalate and see if she is into you or not. If she isn't then you move on.

In the first approach, the girl has already done most of this work for you by indicating interest and mitigating most of the concern as to whether or not she is into you. You don't need to convince her of anything and your risk of rejection due to blatant disinterest is lower(less time wasted by you). At this point, your job is not to fuck up.

This, of course, creates a higher ROI for you. There is a clear advantage here.

Post: #205

I'm somewhere between 4000-5000 approaches, and the one thing I've learned is that IOI's are just keyboard jockey/pua bullshit. they are very, very, very rough indicators of whether a girl is into you, but they honestly have been accurate for me about 60% of the time. I can never guess a girl's reaction to my approach.. after all of my approaches I still have not seen a pattern.

I don't assume, because I think it is noob shit, I just approach if I'm interested.

do I see a difference between the girl w/her friends and the girl who slides next to me at the bar? sure, there is a large degree in difficulty. the girl at the bar next to me requires much less effort to open. the girl w/her friends is surrounded by obsticles and may not want to talk to a stranger.

but I can't count the times the girl at the bar next to me has been a rude bitch while the girl w/her friends was nothing but smiles and kino when I've approached the group.

other than this degree of difficulty, there is no difference: you're still approaching strangers, you're doing cold approaches.


get that assanova bullshit out of your heard, worrying about whether or not she's "warm" enough will just fuck you up and give anxiety.
if you can approach a girl who is "cold" the same way you approach a girl who is "warm", you'll probably get the same results most of the time. this is easier said than done, but valuable once you get the hang of it.

Post: #206

(07-24-2011 11:06 AM)Samseau Wrote:  I'm somewhere between 4000-5000 approaches, and the one thing I've learned is that IOI's are just keyboard jockey/pua bullshit. they are very, very, very rough indicators of whether a girl is into you, but they honestly have been accurate for me about 60% of the time.

So you've found this "bullshit" to actually be accurate the majority of the time?

I rest my case.

Quote:get that assanova bullshit out of your heard, worrying about whether or not she's "warm" enough will just fuck you up and give anxiety.

I don't really have those problems, as I've said before. If anything, warm approaches tend to ease anxiety.

Anyway, I've explained myself well enough(and extensively enough) in this thread so far. You're welcome to your own preferred method to life but, as I think I've shown, my own also has its merits.
At least now anyone reading can make an informed decision.

Post: #207

(07-24-2011 03:55 AM)Samseau Wrote:  so, without arguing about nomenclature, we can conclude that athlone does cold approaches, but he misses opprotunties because of his relience on unreliable IOI's.

"Missing opportunities" is another phrase for being selective - which is critical if your goal is high ROI (i.e. getting a quality pussy with as little effort as possible). High ROI comes from getting a high return on lower expenses. This is the case for me, and I guess this is the case for Athlone as well.

Now if your goal was just to get as much pussy as possible no matter how much the expenses are (i.e. low ROI), then indeed you'd be in a better position if you just approach everyone.

As I have said before, we all have different goals, so it is obvious that our ways are different as well.

Post: #208

athlone - you skipped over the original argument: you still do cold approaches, you just wait for IOI's. it's misleading for you to claim that approaches have a low ROI when in fact you still approach.

oldnemesis: the hottest girls and best sex I've had came from girls who gave zero IOI's. pretty girls don't need to give IOI's, its usually for uglier girls who need to be more aggressive that drop hints.

so if you want quality girls, you need to approach quality girls.

Post: #209

(07-24-2011 10:02 PM)Samseau Wrote:  athlone - you skipped over the original argument: you still do cold approaches, you just wait for IOI's.

I addressed that in post #201. An approach following IOIs is a warm approach, not a cold one. I maintain that there is a difference, and you implicitly conceded these points in post #205. You also admitted that IOIs are accurate the majority of the time.

The argument has been addressed several times over.

Quote:it's misleading for you to claim that approaches have a low ROI when in fact you still approach.

Approaches in which a female clearly signals interest and approaches in which she is entirely oblivious to you are not the same thing. The former has a higher success rate than the latter, and is fundamentally different in nature. That isn't debatable.

I'm not going to sit here and play a game of semantics with established facts.

Quote:the hottest girls and best sex I've had came from girls who gave zero IOI's.[quote]

That doesn't disprove the point. Obviously no method is foolproof when it comes to getting women-this is not a zero sum game. Some women may give no IOIs, and could come to like you later upon a cold approach. Some women will give blatant IOIs and then become cold upon approach. Nobody said that these things were impossible.

[quote]pretty girls don't need to give IOI's, its usually for uglier girls who need to be more aggressive that drop hints.

It is not a matter of need or voluntary desire. Girls give IOIs to men that they are attracted to, regardless of how pretty they are. Hot women are just as interested in getting with men they are attracted to as any other girl, and when that man shows up they can and will let him know. Many of these IOIs are hardwired, biological reactions that they cannot easily suppress.

There is also a cultural component. Some cultures favor more aggressive female signaling than others. In the end however, all women can and do signal to some extent when in the presence of men they are attracted to.

To claim that the expression of IOIs is solely the domain of less attractive females is to establish a blatantly false dichotomy with no basis in reality.

Quote:so if you want quality girls, you need to approach quality girls.

But you don't have to cold approach*.

*: Nevermind the escort option.

Post: #210

Athlone, can you give a rundown of your success? Because you seem to have a lot of theory but I don't have any given examples.
What is your percentage on your social group (warm approaches).

I like to look at things in percentages. In your last 30 warm approaches, how many of them did you get to fcuk?

It seems you are nitpicking just for the sake of it when whether you act on IOI or not, you are still opening on a stranger.

The whole thing here is your ego and your feelings. That's where your whole ROI stands. Being rejected hurts your feelings and makes you feel angry.

He who doesn't give a fcuk, actually gets to fcuk more because gaming would be in stride and as part of your nature. You see something you like you go for it. Either you get it or you don't. She gives up the pussy or she doesn't.
You're in the library about to get a book out. You see a hot woman in line. You open up on her. Build up kino, eventually ask for her number.
She says yes or she says no.
Either way, you get your book.
The universe does not shift and time does not stop because she said yes, she will blow you with her three model friends or whether she says no.
The way the whole situation is defined is based on PERSPECTIVE.
Switch your perspective, it no longer becomes low ROI or high. What is the cost in talking to a woman in the mall that you were going to, or in the coffee shop, or in the gym or in the bookstore? Nothing. You were going to these places anyway.

To give you a personal example, I went to a restaurant/club with some dudes yesterday in Scarbs. Hollared at a Guyanese lizard who served us (she was cute as fcuk). She said no to my request for the number.
I got up and went to dance to the soca playing.
I did not die from her rejection.
ROI = irrelevant because I was eating anyway and I had to dance. She was in my path so I hollared. Either way, I didn't deviate from my intent for that evening which was to have fun.

With the proper strategy in place, the more you open, the more you close...PERIOD.

Those are the law of averages.

Post: #211

(07-24-2011 11:33 PM)Moma Wrote:  Athlone, can you give a rundown of your success?

I get my fair share.

Quote:What is your percentage on your social group?

More than half.

Quote:It seems you are nitpicking just for the sake of it when whether you act on IOI or not, you are still opening on a stranger.

There is a difference between warm and cold.

That isn't nitpicking, it is common sense. One does not need to be picky to recognize the bleedingly obvious.

Quote:The whole thing here is your ego and your feelings. That's where your whole ROI stands.

Sure it is. Let's ignore masses of rational argumentation I have put forth with regard to this so far in this thread and move to the ad hominem.

Quote:Being rejected hurts your feelings and makes you feel angry.

We've went over this a hundred times. The 101st attempt will not be the charm.
I've made my point.

Post: #212

(07-24-2011 10:02 PM)Samseau Wrote:  oldnemesis: the hottest girls and best sex I've had came from girls who gave zero IOI's. pretty girls don't need to give IOI's, its usually for uglier girls who need to be more aggressive that drop hints.

This says nothing about your ROI, which is measured on total efforts spent versus total score, not single cherry-picked cases.

Quote:so if you want quality girls, you need to approach quality girls.

I want high ROI. Remember, I'm not looking to any kind of relationship (fuck buddy included), and the quality of one-night-stand girls matters much less. If you consider that the difference between hottest and ugliest girl here in Bay Area is something like a difference between 5 and 2, it makes little to no sense.

Post: #213

(07-24-2011 11:33 PM)Moma Wrote:  He who doesn't give a fcuk, actually gets to fcuk more because gaming would be in stride and as part of your nature. You see something you like you go for it.

There is a contradiction. If he don't give a fuck about someone, why would he ever approach them? This would be something like not wanting to buy candy, but still buying them.

Quote:You're in the library about to get a book out. You see a hot woman in line. You open up on her. Build up kino, eventually ask for her number.

This is an investment. What is a possible return? A number, in the best case. Now if one doesn't do dates, the number has no value, so the return is very close to zero.
Now consider the effort: switching yourself into the "small talk" mode, having a conversation with a stranger, remembering and following the routine, disrupt your day schedule and thinking, getting out of your comfort zone. This investment is significant for generally introvert people, and the return is low. This means low ROI.

However, as said above, you may be a different type of person, someone for whom talking to strangers is an activity you actually enjoy, and not have to push yourself to do so. You may also do dating, have more free time, and no specific day schedule. In that case your investment is lower, meaning you can tolerate lower returns. So your ROI in the same scenario may be higher.

Quote:Switch your perspective, it no longer becomes low ROI or high. What is the cost in talking to a woman in the mall that you were going to, or in the coffee shop, or in the gym or in the bookstore? Nothing. You were going to these places anyway.

The cost is significant. For example: in a gym I follow the routine with pretty tight timing; stopping it to make a conversation disrupts the workout which is an obvious loss.
In the mall I'm usually to buy something, and leave. While not the same as above (investment is lower), the return is still too low to even engage into that.
Coffee shops and bookstores, I don't even remember whenI was the last time I've been there, none of them make any sense to me. Cultural difference again. Or maybe it is only for singles.

So, as you see, this is not obvious when you acknowledge there are people who simply do not enjoy talking to strangers.

Quote:To give you a personal example, I went to a restaurant/club with some dudes yesterday in Scarbs. Hollared at a Guyanese lizard who served us (she was cute as fcuk). She said no to my request for the number.

See, for you the phone number has value. For me it has zero value; I had girls giving me their phone numbers, and I threw them away because they were no use to me.

Quote:Those are the law of averages.

Following the law of averages will bring you the average return. Which is indeed better than nothing, but it only makes sense for some people, and not all of us.

Post: #214

Oldnemesis your last post highlighted the contradiction that the majority of guys are interested in attractive strangers but just don't like the fact that they have to talk to them, this is the same for the majority of people. Although in general I have found people in America to be more outgoing so there can be more random conversations with strangers than I'd experience in the UK.

If you totally accept that you're not willing to do this then you look at other indirect means, become wealthy, get in great shape, have a huge social network, I could almost go as far to say this is the bedrock of society guys doing a bunch of stupid indirect stuff to get women. These can all work but for guys who don't excel at these i.e they get in reasonable shape, they make decent money etc then it doesn't really pay off.

From reading what Athlone has written he's on the excel route, ivy league school, great physique and big social networks, so this should really pay off big time. But for the average guy who's too afraid to approach and won't excel in these other areas he's going to be out of luck.

You see this same thing played out on this board a lot, people read about some new place which could possibly be easy pussy paradise and start asking questions like so what is this place like for an average dude? I'm a little overweight (probably dresses like an average American slob), medium bank roll and average game? The answer is forget it, you're either going to be on the P4P scene or dating some very average looking women who's scrapping by on a few bucks an hour and living in a house with ten other people.

Post: #215

Yes, it is the case. It mostly comes from the fact that being married and not in my 20s anymore, I feel less and less desire to put down any work for a disposable pussy. Indeed, people in America are more outgoing in random conversations; basically I have to "pump up" my energy to be on the same conversation level an average American dude lives in permanently. Not only this is work, but this is also kind of work which brings questionable benefits. I still do it from time to time with the purpose to practice my English, but it is significant resource investment for me to waste it on cold approaches. Especially once you understand that the top value of an average hot pussy is around $200, which is something you make in 2-3 hours.

There is no place which is pussy paradise - unless you pay for it. Those who can pull 6s here in US will be able to pull 6s in Poland, Ukraine, and so on. It may be a little harder or a little easier, but the difference is never going to be tenfold. What changes is quality - a girl who is 6 in Ukraine may be something like 9 in US, so you feel like it is easy as you're getting a higher quality for the same amount of work. This, however, doesn't last long - in 3-12 months you'll adapt to local looks, and your scale changes. Then you're back on square one. You can still brag to your American friends about the girls you pull, but you know you see you're still pulling 6s and cannot pull 9s, same as in US. And God forbid if you get back, you'll seriously consider an option of being gay.

Post: #216

One thing I'll agree with Athlone is that guys need money.
I just came back to Toronto, there's just so many fat and ugly girls here.
You need money to travel and bang girls in other countries.
And I don't plan to live in hostels and live cheap passing on food. I love eating good food and I love eating a lot of it. I want financial freedom, freedom to study or work wherever I want, and the ability to travel whenever I feel like it.

I think game and money are the two important things every young man should focus on. They both improve quality of life for young men immensely.

Post: #217

I was born Mexican and have stayed Mexican, but not without some American influence a I lived in the States for 15 years.
When I went back to Mexico in 2002 I immediately saw that I was getting way more attention from Mexican women than in the U.S. It didn’t take me long to figure out that they were after me because they taught I was a rich “pocho” visiting. So that's yet another example of why money matters...

Getting pussy has always been good, but NOT great nor number one in my life. Why because I value other stuff as well. One of them is dancing and singing (no worries I won’t post any youtubes of me singing).
I enjoy the family atmosphere and definitely loved how family is very important in the Latin culture. Call it beta or whatever the fuck you want, but I also enjoy kids (I worked with kids for 2 years in San Diego an if not for poor wages I would have stayed working).
My actual reasons for joining this forum was so I could learn about your travel experience and perhaps meet one or more of you when you visit Colombia (make new friends). It doesn’t hurt that some of you probably know more about “gaming” than me so chances are that I would probably “borrow” some of your attitudes in order to score better with women, but no mas.
The only thing that I regret doing is pimping a hooker in Tijuana for 3 months. Pimping is is one of the few ways you can have money, hoes, AND power over someone’s mind all in one package YET the danger factor was too high for my taste.

In order of importance:
• Family/Children
• Money
• Great job
• Dancing/Singing/Pussy

Go after money, but take with you the other things you also enjoy.

Post: #218

I got M.O.B. tatted on my heart a few weeks ago. Just something to surprise these lizards with when its that time.

Post: #219

Thought I'd share an interesting read related to the discussion at hand.

http://michaelbyc.com/2011/01/25/youth-not-squanderd/

Post: #220

Thanks for sharing the article blurb, great article.

I just wonder how old is this guy.

Post: #221

My thoughts on this topic... I tend to side with money.

Let's recap:

Pro: You have more control over money than you will over any woman.

Con: There are rich guys that still don't get laid. (They don't have Game.)

CounterCon: What's to say that you can't combine Money + Game? You can learn Game whenever you want. DayGame, Online Dating, Night Game, College Game, Wedding Game, Dance Game, etc. The possibilites are almost endless for meeting and interacting with women. However, you only have a short period for earning your maximum earning potential. A 25-year-old can make big bucks working at construction, but try doing that with the body of a 45 or 55-year-old. Here's how you solve the problem for all those rich guys not getting laid: give them a copy of Bang and Day Bang. Problem solved.



Money speaks every language.

Money is the lingua franca of the world, understood by all people, nations, and cultures. Money will give you far greater advantages and opportunities in life than any woman ever will.

Some things money can buy you:
1) Time Time is money; therefore, money must also be time. You can afford to get laid off from your job or go jobless for at least 10-15 years because you have enough money in the bank to support yourself. It buys you the time to enjoy your favorite activities like travel, hiking, and reading. It buys you free time to relax.
2) Travel.
2) Food.
3) Clothes.
4) Places to stay (an apartment, home, or condo)
5) Time off work/retire early (you can afford to)
6) Access to your favorite goods, activities, and hobbies (skydiving, swimming, books, videos, etc.)
7) School/educational opportunities

How many women, in addition to their pussy, can give you all these things? A woman will not feed you. A woman will not put the clothes on your back. A woman will not pay your rent for you. You have to do that yourself.


If you have money, you will have women because women are attracted to power, and money is a form of power. Money makes things easier. Less stress over bills, better health, better medical access, etc.

Sure, you can live in your parent's basement and pull girls, but I would become bored as hell since there's almost nothing to do in my area. Your parents are not always going to be around to help you when you need them. Do not put your trust in others; trust in yourself, and rely on yourself. It is when you give up control to others that you lose power.

I understand that there are limitations to what money can give you, but the advantages of money far outweight the advantages of any one woman. Besides an orgasm, what else can a woman give you? Money gives you far greater multiple benefits than any one woman's pussy ever will.

Post: #222

(09-11-2011 06:14 PM)blurb Wrote:  My thoughts on this topic... I tend to side with money.

Let's recap:

Pro: You have more control over money than you will over any woman.

Con: There are rich guys that still don't get laid. (They don't have Game.)

CounterCon: What's to say that you can't combine Money + Game? You can learn Game whenever you want. DayGame, Online Dating, Night Game, College Game, Wedding Game, Dance Game, etc. The possibilites are almost endless for meeting and interacting with women. However, you only have a short period for earning your maximum earning potential. A 25-year-old can make big bucks working at construction, but try doing that with the body of a 45 or 55-year-old. Here's how you solve the problem for all those rich guys not getting laid: give them a copy of Bang and Day Bang. Problem solved.



Money speaks every language.

Money is the lingua franca of the world, understood by all people, nations, and cultures. Money will give you far greater advantages and opportunities in life than any woman ever will.

Some things money can buy you:
1) Time Time is money; therefore, money must also be time. You can afford to get laid off from your job or go jobless for at least 10-15 years because you have enough money in the bank to support yourself. It buys you the time to enjoy your favorite activities like travel, hiking, and reading. It buys you free time to relax.
2) Travel.
2) Food.
3) Clothes.
4) Places to stay (an apartment, home, or condo)
5) Time off work/retire early (you can afford to)
6) Access to your favorite goods, activities, and hobbies (skydiving, swimming, books, videos, etc.)
7) School/educational opportunities

How many women, in addition to their pussy, can give you all these things? A woman will not feed you. A woman will not put the clothes on your back. A woman will not pay your rent for you. You have to do that yourself.


If you have money, you will have women because women are attracted to power, and money is a form of power. Money makes things easier. Less stress over bills, better health, better medical access, etc.

Sure, you can live in your parent's basement and pull girls, but I would become bored as hell since there's almost nothing to do in my area. Your parents are not always going to be around to help you when you need them. Do not put your trust in others; trust in yourself, and rely on yourself. It is when you give up control to others that you lose power.

I understand that there are limitations to what money can give you, but the advantages of money far outweight the advantages of any one woman. Besides an orgasm, what else can a woman give you? Money gives you far greater multiple benefits than any one woman's pussy ever will.

Here's my Take-

Work on both at the same time.

Go out hard with day game and then go home and work on your biz. Cut out the wastes of time. Right now as I'm writing this post I'm listening to a product on media buying to keep feeding my mind useful information that I can apply.

My friend did the same, he says to do both you have to cut down useless shit like TV to be able to do it. Your life is basically Game + Gym + Business(note that relevant books counts towards that)+ Getting your school work done(if you are in school).

Game is essential because doing it teaches you you can do things your mind refuses to believe it can do. By taking consistent action you improve your personality radically and develop a self believe that nothings impossible. It'll make sure that you keep yourself moving forward on days when you feel down on business. Same with hitting the gym.

Obviously there are going to periods of crunch time when you focus on your biz over all else but in general you should keep a decent balance. There are enough hours in the day. Most people waste hours on forums(like I do) or youtube videos. If you cut that down and spend it at the local mall chatting to 5 or 6 girls you instantly get a good return on time. As it is most of us can chat up girls in our daily routines. I'll be chatting up girls in school settings even if I can't hit the mall.

There are always opportunities to talk to girls in all settings. Game must be worked on because its the cornerstone of your social life and a lot of biz involves networking. A confident guy will make more friends and connections than a guy who's not sure of himself. These connections are huge since they'll teach you things you wouldn't learn by yourself. A lot of really cool things I learned about IM is from a half an hour chat I had with my buddy who told me how to do what he does. This wouldn't have happened if I hadn't gone out and picked up girls with him.

Motivation is kept high by constantly working on self improvement and making money. The fact is that you can't work every day on something but if you have alternative productive activites to do you can still keep adding value to yourself. This ensures that a shitty day in any area doesn't get you down in any way because you can look back and say that you still got shit done.

Post: #223

is this world..moneys all that will ever matter, so dont worry about your age.
if you have money, it'll never matter how old you are, or what you look like..your dick will go where you want it to.

Post: #224

Why do you say that amphibious? You talking out of your experience? Any stories you want to share?

Post: #225

(07-03-2010 06:17 PM)Roosh Wrote:  A lot of guys really overestimate the power of money to bang a lot of girls. Just like with anything there is a point of diminishing return where more money doesn't equal more bangs. Those rich guys you see getting laid are doing it because of fame, not money. Do you know how many rich guys (without status) can't get laid? Or get laid with low quality? You need to have the whole package, and money is just a part of it. Having money sure makes it easier to go where the pretty girls are, but it won't turn you in Leonardo Dicaprio overnight.

EPIC FUCKING POST!