Post: #26

(04-19-2013 11:52 PM)tenderman100 Wrote:  

(04-19-2013 11:46 PM)More and more Wrote:  Second, it's clear that the stimulus saved a lot of jobs that otherwise would have been lost.

Prove it.

I have to head out soon (a player is going to try to play), but there is a lot of stuff on this on the Internet. In general, the idea that government spending leads to less jobs or has no positive effect on employment (whatever theoretical used to support this contention) has proven without foundation.

Post: #27

(04-19-2013 11:46 PM)More and more Wrote:  Second, it's clear that the stimulus saved a lot of jobs that otherwise would have been lost.

In the short term of course...in the long term? No

Post: #28

(04-19-2013 10:34 PM)Quintus Flaminius Wrote:  

(04-19-2013 10:23 PM)polymath Wrote:  Depends. What is your goal, and what are you interested in?

Personally I find it more interesting to read research papers by economists in academia than to read long texts. It's nice to see a hypothesis tested on a modern problem with real data.

Just enough economic literacy requirements for the average voter, that's all.

In order to see through the economic propaganda spin machine run by academia, you will have to read the Taleb trilogy: Fooled by Randomness, Black Swan, Anti-fragile.

He punches holes through most modern economic/financial theories, and shows them for what they really are - ideas that are divorced from reality.

Post: #29

(04-19-2013 11:07 PM)Quintus Flaminius Wrote:  

(04-19-2013 10:56 PM)More and more Wrote:  

(04-19-2013 10:51 PM)Quintus Flaminius Wrote:  Those guys were endorsing Obama in 2008 and in 2012, look what happened.

What happened? The Keynesian policies Obama tried to pursue have been vindicated. Obama should have done more of what he tried to do.

He also got us into a lot of debt, that will be pretty difficult to pay back, when the boomers retire.

You should contact the government immediately, they need your expertise. Your qualifications?

Post: #30

(04-19-2013 10:34 PM)Quintus Flaminius Wrote:  

(04-19-2013 10:23 PM)polymath Wrote:  Depends. What is your goal, and what are you interested in?

Personally I find it more interesting to read research papers by economists in academia than to read long texts. It's nice to see a hypothesis tested on a modern problem with real data.

Just enough economic literacy requirements for the average voter, that's all.

In order to see through the economic propaganda spin machine run by the rich, you will have to understand the tragedy of the commons.
That punches holes through most standard economic/financial theories as taught in universities, and shows them for what they really are - systems of equations that are divorced from humanistic values.

Post: #31

(04-20-2013 02:40 AM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

(04-19-2013 11:07 PM)Quintus Flaminius Wrote:  

(04-19-2013 10:56 PM)More and more Wrote:  

(04-19-2013 10:51 PM)Quintus Flaminius Wrote:  Those guys were endorsing Obama in 2008 and in 2012, look what happened.

What happened? The Keynesian policies Obama tried to pursue have been vindicated. Obama should have done more of what he tried to do.

He also got us into a lot of debt, that will be pretty difficult to pay back, when the boomers retire.

You should contact the government immediately, they need your expertise. Your qualifications?

Qualifications?, Keep in mind that Obama has the same qualifications as Bush.

Post: #32

(04-20-2013 02:43 AM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

(04-19-2013 10:34 PM)Quintus Flaminius Wrote:  

(04-19-2013 10:23 PM)polymath Wrote:  Depends. What is your goal, and what are you interested in?

Personally I find it more interesting to read research papers by economists in academia than to read long texts. It's nice to see a hypothesis tested on a modern problem with real data.

Just enough economic literacy requirements for the average voter, that's all.

In order to see through the economic propaganda spin machine run by the rich, you will have to understand the tragedy of the commons.
That punches holes through most standard economic/financial theories as taught in universities, and shows them for what they really are - systems of equations that are divorced from humanistic values.

I'm not against environmental regulations.

Post: #33

Check out Griftopia by Matt Taibbi:

Post: #34

GRIFTOPIA and ECONOMICS IN ONE LESSON are great books. As are many of the others mentioned in this thread. Personally - I find Economics to be fascinating - and would recommend reading as much as possible.

Personally - I find Marx interesting. It seems to me the most important concept in Economics is the debate over what exactly value is.

And I find Marx's Theory of Surplus Labour Value to be very interesting. Indeed - many on the left feel the Marginal Utility theory is a complete cop out. It is intriguing to consider that modern economics might be built on a politically motivated fudge.

Anyway - I am still working my way through these debates. It is fascinating stuff.

Post: #35

(04-20-2013 02:49 AM)Quintus Flaminius Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 02:40 AM)iknowexactly Wrote:  You should contact the government immediately, they need your expertise. Your qualifications?

Qualifications?, Keep in mind that Obama has the same qualifications as Bush.

Wrong, Obama has a law degree and was respected as a student in Harvard, Bush was noted as a rather nasty dunce, present in Harvard only through connections, according to one of his professors. And got an MBA degree.

From http://www.salon.com/2004/09/16/tsurumi/

For 25 years, Yoshi Tsurumi, one of George W. Bush’s professors at Harvard Business School, was content with his green-card status as a permanent legal resident of the United States. But Bush’s ascension to the presidency in 2001 prompted the Japanese native to secure his American citizenship. The reason: to be able to speak out with the full authority of citizenship about why he believes Bush lacks the character and intellect to lead the world’s oldest and most powerful democracy.

“I don’t remember all the students in detail unless I’m prompted by something,” Tsurumi said in a telephone interview Wednesday. “But I always remember two types of students. One is the very excellent student, the type as a professor you feel honored to be working with. Someone with strong social values, compassion and intellect — the very rare person you never forget. And then you remember students like George Bush, those who are totally the opposite.”

Post: #36

Don't Knight by Knorr Man, Jr.

Actually, I have to admit I've been reading the Freakonomics book.

Post: #37

(04-20-2013 07:08 AM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 02:49 AM)Quintus Flaminius Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 02:40 AM)iknowexactly Wrote:  You should contact the government immediately, they need your expertise. Your qualifications?

Qualifications?, Keep in mind that Obama has the same qualifications as Bush.

Wrong, Obama has a law degree and was respected as a student in Harvard, Bush was noted as a rather nasty dunce, present in Harvard only through connections, according to one of his professors. And got an MBA degree.

From http://www.salon.com/2004/09/16/tsurumi/

For 25 years, Yoshi Tsurumi, one of George W. Bush’s professors at Harvard Business School, was content with his green-card status as a permanent legal resident of the United States. But Bush’s ascension to the presidency in 2001 prompted the Japanese native to secure his American citizenship. The reason: to be able to speak out with the full authority of citizenship about why he believes Bush lacks the character and intellect to lead the world’s oldest and most powerful democracy.

“I don’t remember all the students in detail unless I’m prompted by something,” Tsurumi said in a telephone interview Wednesday. “But I always remember two types of students. One is the very excellent student, the type as a professor you feel honored to be working with. Someone with strong social values, compassion and intellect — the very rare person you never forget. And then you remember students like George Bush, those who are totally the opposite.”

It is still means that he's an authority on law, not on economics, and he sure violated too many constitutional rights for a teacher of constitutional law.
I'd say Noam Chomsky is even smarter, considering that he's an authority on Mathematics, and kicks ass on foreign policy, but on economics, I don't think anarcho syndicalism is such a great idea.

Post: #38

Good thread. I'd echo what people have said about Hazlitt - Economics in One Lesson.

Would also add Taleb's Black Swan and/or Antifragile (if only one, Antifragile) for some perspective.

Finally, it's nice to see your goal is to get enough economic literacy for the average voter - IF ONLY everyone else did this. Heh.

Post: #39

I'm dismayed by the absence of mathematically-oriented recommendations, like a microeconomics textbook. Samuelson's is classic.

Freakanomics is just a bunch of cute empirical studies on incentives.

(04-20-2013 05:52 AM)cardguy Wrote:  I find Marx's Theory of Surplus Labour Value to be very interesting.

Samuelson devastated Marx's labor theory of value, showing it was based on an algebraic error (dividing by zero).

(04-20-2013 07:24 AM)Quintus Flaminius Wrote:  Noam Chomsky is even smarter, considering that he's an authority on Mathematics, and kicks ass on foreign policy, ...

No, he is a linguist.

Post: #40

(04-20-2013 08:14 AM)Divorco Wrote:  I'm dismayed by the absence of mathematically-oriented recommendations, like a microeconomics textbook. Samuelson's is classic.

Freakanomics is just a bunch of cute empirical studies on incentives.

(04-20-2013 05:52 AM)cardguy Wrote:  I find Marx's Theory of Surplus Labour Value to be very interesting.

Samuelson devastated Marx's labor theory of value, showing it was based on an algebraic error (dividing by zero).

(04-20-2013 07:24 AM)Quintus Flaminius Wrote:  Noam Chomsky is even smarter, considering that he's an authority on Mathematics, and kicks ass on foreign policy, ...

No, he is a linguist.

You have to be a pretty accomplished mathematician in order to establish a relationship between formal languages and abstract algebra.
Chomsky–Schützenberger theorem

Post: #41

(04-20-2013 08:26 AM)Quintus Flaminius Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 08:14 AM)Divorco Wrote:  I'm dismayed by the absence of mathematically-oriented recommendations, like a microeconomics textbook. Samuelson's is classic.

Freakanomics is just a bunch of cute empirical studies on incentives.

(04-20-2013 05:52 AM)cardguy Wrote:  I find Marx's Theory of Surplus Labour Value to be very interesting.

Samuelson devastated Marx's labor theory of value, showing it was based on an algebraic error (dividing by zero).

(04-20-2013 07:24 AM)Quintus Flaminius Wrote:  Noam Chomsky is even smarter, considering that he's an authority on Mathematics, and kicks ass on foreign policy, ...

No, he is a linguist.

You have to be a pretty accomplished mathematician in order to establish a relationship between formal languages and abstract algebra.
Chomsky–Schützenberger theorem

It's not very accurate to describe Chomsky as a mathematician. His work on context-free grammars and mappings is not anything near the complexity of the body of work a typical high-level mathematician develops in the course of a career. He's a linguist, a political philosopher, a cognitive scientist, and an intellectual of many other fields. But he can't fairly be described as a mathematician.

Basically the theorem you link is a way of using power series to characterize the representation of grammars where there is only one way to parse the meaning. You can read the paper here. It's math, and it's cool, but it's not real fucking beast-mode mathematics. Plus, Schutzenberger -- his colleague on that work -- was an accomplished mathematician.

---

On Obama...

Do you guys not realize that QE2 was successful? And that bonehead bankers were the reason that the mortgage crisis even happened?

Jury's still out on Obama's lasting economic legacy, but he's doing pretty damn well considering what our nation has gone through during his presidency. Whatever side you're on, please recognize that the economic crisis was truly global, its causes and effects span wider than the breadth of the USA, and it's an oversimplification to put the blame on Obama. For his part, the current administration seems to have implemented policy that has helped prevent our country from going the way of many less lucky nations economically.

Post: #42

(04-20-2013 11:22 AM)polymath Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 08:26 AM)Quintus Flaminius Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 08:14 AM)Divorco Wrote:  I'm dismayed by the absence of mathematically-oriented recommendations, like a microeconomics textbook. Samuelson's is classic.

Freakanomics is just a bunch of cute empirical studies on incentives.

(04-20-2013 05:52 AM)cardguy Wrote:  I find Marx's Theory of Surplus Labour Value to be very interesting.

Samuelson devastated Marx's labor theory of value, showing it was based on an algebraic error (dividing by zero).

(04-20-2013 07:24 AM)Quintus Flaminius Wrote:  Noam Chomsky is even smarter, considering that he's an authority on Mathematics, and kicks ass on foreign policy, ...

No, he is a linguist.

You have to be a pretty accomplished mathematician in order to establish a relationship between formal languages and abstract algebra.
Chomsky–Schützenberger theorem

It's not very accurate to describe Chomsky as a mathematician. His work on context-free grammars and mappings is not anything near the complexity of the body of work a typical high-level mathematician develops in the course of a career. He's a linguist, a political philosopher, a cognitive scientist, and an intellectual of many other fields. But he can't fairly be described as a mathematician.

Basically the theorem you link is a way of using power series to characterize the representation of grammars where there is only one way to parse the meaning. You can read the paper here. It's math, and it's cool, but it's not real fucking beast-mode mathematics. Plus, Schutzenberger -- his colleague on that work -- was an accomplished mathematician.

---

On Obama...

Do you guys not realize that QE2 was successful? And that bonehead bankers were the reason that the mortgage crisis even happened?

Jury's still out on Obama's lasting economic legacy, but he's doing pretty damn well considering what our nation has gone through during his presidency. Whatever side you're on, please recognize that the economic crisis was truly global, its causes and effects span wider than the breadth of the USA, and it's an oversimplification to put the blame on Obama. For his part, the current administration seems to have implemented policy that has helped prevent our country from going the way of many less lucky nations economically.

Bonehead government should not have backed the loans to unreliable borrowers.



And it was the government that bailed them out.
1.I ask only that Obama goes in front of a live audience and explain the basic differences between an interventionist economy and a free market.
2.He should then declare himself as an interventionist, as a Keynesian, if we go back to pre-2008 levels, and return stronger than before, then good for him, and better for Keynesian economics.
3.If, however, we DO go into a double dip recession, I just want him to be a bit more honest about it, and not blame the non existent free market, then get out of the way, and let the economy restructure.

Post: #43

(04-20-2013 07:08 AM)iknowexactly Wrote:  Wrong, Obama has a law degree and was respected as a student in Harvard, Bush was noted as a rather nasty dunce, present in Harvard only through connections, according to one of his professors. And got an MBA degree.

From http://www.salon.com/2004/09/16/tsurumi/

For 25 years, Yoshi Tsurumi, one of George W. Bush’s professors at Harvard Business School, was content with his green-card status as a permanent legal resident of the United States. But Bush’s ascension to the presidency in 2001 prompted the Japanese native to secure his American citizenship. The reason: to be able to speak out with the full authority of citizenship about why he believes Bush lacks the character and intellect to lead the world’s oldest and most powerful democracy.

“I don’t remember all the students in detail unless I’m prompted by something,” Tsurumi said in a telephone interview Wednesday. “But I always remember two types of students. One is the very excellent student, the type as a professor you feel honored to be working with. Someone with strong social values, compassion and intellect — the very rare person you never forget. And then you remember students like George Bush, those who are totally the opposite.”

A Harvard professor doesn't like a Republican?

I'm shocked, I tell you, shocked.

Meanwhile, at lease we've seen Bush's transcripts. Where are Obama's? After all he is the smartest presdient EVAH!!

Post: #44

Here is a fun story I came across a couple of years ago. It is a parable for how alot of the bank bailouts work. Although - I am still not sure I fully understand it.

Quote:“Once upon a time, there was a poor Irish village where everyone was in debt to each other.

A rich German arrived at the local hotel and, as a deposit on a room, put down a €100 note.

The hotelier grabbed the note and ran next door to pay his debt to the butcher. The butcher used the note to pay his supplier — who rushed to the local pub and paid his bar bill.

The publican slipped the note to a local lady of the night for services previously rendered, and she took it back to the hotel to pay what she owed for room hire. But, as she put the note on the counter, the German reappeared, said he had decided not to stay after all, picked up the note and left."

"And that,” Darius concludes, “is how a bail-out works.”

Post: #45

I love hearing people talk like the recession is over and done with ... Solved lol..... The same people don't seem to be concerned about a massive growing debt that can ONLY be paid with these low interest rates. They truly believe it's ok to keep them at zero forever.. Well maybe it is when you buy your own bonds, no consequences to that . Social programs spiraling out of control and when combined with defense spending they both take up more than our entire tax revenue... by a couple hundred B$. The same people aren't concerned with the massive growth food stamp recipients... from like 29 mil to 47 mil in 5 years or something? Yea, nothing to see there. How about growing disability? or the governments ACTUAL unemployment which has grown by 10 million people in 5 years, 10 million in 5 years? That is also what our population grew. So by the governments numbers ACTUAL unemployment is keeping up with our population growth lol..... Keep believing things are peachy if you want but you'll be in for an awakening.

and please stop with the left vs right shit.

Post: #46

(04-20-2013 12:09 PM)tenderman100 Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 07:08 AM)iknowexactly Wrote:  Wrong, Obama has a law degree and was respected as a student in Harvard, Bush was noted as a rather nasty dunce, present in Harvard only through connections, according to one of his professors. And got an MBA degree.

From http://www.salon.com/2004/09/16/tsurumi/

For 25 years, Yoshi Tsurumi, one of George W. Bush’s professors at Harvard Business School, was content with his green-card status as a permanent legal resident of the United States. But Bush’s ascension to the presidency in 2001 prompted the Japanese native to secure his American citizenship. The reason: to be able to speak out with the full authority of citizenship about why he believes Bush lacks the character and intellect to lead the world’s oldest and most powerful democracy.

“I don’t remember all the students in detail unless I’m prompted by something,” Tsurumi said in a telephone interview Wednesday. “But I always remember two types of students. One is the very excellent student, the type as a professor you feel honored to be working with. Someone with strong social values, compassion and intellect — the very rare person you never forget. And then you remember students like George Bush, those who are totally the opposite.”

A Harvard professor doesn't like a Republican?

I'm shocked, I tell you, shocked.

Meanwhile, at lease we've seen Bush's transcripts. Where are Obama's? After all he is the smartest presdient EVAH!!

Obama graduated from Harvard Magna cum laude, if I am not mistaken. So it's not clear at all why we need to see his transcripts. All that will tell us is which one or two classes he got less than an A in.

Also, that professor didn't say he didn't like Bush. He said that he remembers him because he was a particularly bad student.

Post: #47

Hey Divorco,

Is the Samuelson analysis of Marx published anywhere? I am guessing it is in his bestselling Economics textbook. I have seen a chapter mentioned in the 13th edition. But - I am not sure if the same chapter is in the later editions?

Post: #48

(04-20-2013 12:47 PM)Jaydublin Wrote:  I love hearing people talk like the recession is over and done with ... Solved lol..... The same people don't seem to be concerned about a massive growing debt that can ONLY be paid with these low interest rates. They truly believe it's ok to keep them at zero forever.. Well maybe it is when you buy your own bonds, no consequences to that . Social programs spiraling out of control and when combined with defense spending they both take up more than our entire tax revenue... by a couple hundred B$. The same people aren't concerned with the massive growth food stamp recipients... from like 29 mil to 47 mil in 5 years or something? Yea, nothing to see there. How about growing disability? or the governments ACTUAL unemployment which has grown by 10 million people in 5 years, 10 million in 5 years? That is also what our population grew. So by the governments numbers ACTUAL unemployment is keeping up with our population growth lol..... Keep believing things are peachy if you want but you'll be in for an awakening.

and please stop with the left vs right shit.

You're right, it should be libertarian vs authoritarian, and I will concede one thing, though.
Spending on social programs like Medicare makes conceivable sense, and could be pretty affordable if restructured into a voucher based system.
American military spending is, hands down, the most retarded way to piss away money in the history of politics.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again, it's John Bolton that's the real problem, not Michael Moore.

Post: #49

CAPITALISM AND FREEDOM: MILTON FRIEDMAN

FREE TO CHOSE: Milton Friedman

Post: #50

(04-20-2013 01:07 PM)More and more Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 12:09 PM)tenderman100 Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 07:08 AM)iknowexactly Wrote:  Wrong, Obama has a law degree and was respected as a student in Harvard, Bush was noted as a rather nasty dunce, present in Harvard only through connections, according to one of his professors. And got an MBA degree.

From http://www.salon.com/2004/09/16/tsurumi/

For 25 years, Yoshi Tsurumi, one of George W. Bush’s professors at Harvard Business School, was content with his green-card status as a permanent legal resident of the United States. But Bush’s ascension to the presidency in 2001 prompted the Japanese native to secure his American citizenship. The reason: to be able to speak out with the full authority of citizenship about why he believes Bush lacks the character and intellect to lead the world’s oldest and most powerful democracy.

“I don’t remember all the students in detail unless I’m prompted by something,” Tsurumi said in a telephone interview Wednesday. “But I always remember two types of students. One is the very excellent student, the type as a professor you feel honored to be working with. Someone with strong social values, compassion and intellect — the very rare person you never forget. And then you remember students like George Bush, those who are totally the opposite.”

A Harvard professor doesn't like a Republican?

I'm shocked, I tell you, shocked.

Meanwhile, at lease we've seen Bush's transcripts. Where are Obama's? After all he is the smartest presdient EVAH!!

Obama graduated from Harvard Magna cum laude, if I am not mistaken. So it's not clear at all why we need to see his transcripts. All that will tell us is which one or two classes he got less than an A in.

Also, that professor didn't say he didn't like Bush. He said that he remembers him because he was a particularly bad student.

My understanding is that up until the last 1990s, about 3/4 of any Harvard Law School class graduated with honors.

Moreover, BO was president of the Harvard Law Review -- he was never the editor. The guy never published any academic articles, or clerked for any judge.

Meanwhile, let's look at his transcripts from Occidental and Columbia. Oh, that's right, he's never released them, as Bush did from his undergraduate time at Yale.

And of course he never released his transcripts from HLS either.

The reality is that Barack Obama has kept his academic past hidden. There may nothing onerous there...or maybe there are indeed things he wants to hide.

Bottom line, here's my view about Obama. He is clever, but not very bright. He is charming, but very superficial.

He is the Peter Principle personified. He has no real skills except for speech delivery. He has no real experience in anything but activism and politics -- teaching doesn't count because as time went on it was clear he wasn't very good at that.

He has been in over his head ever since he got to the Illinois legislature.

Those who voted for him, and those who wrote paeans to him, like Michael Beschloss, have been snookered into thinking he's some towering intellect.

He is not, and never has been.