Post: #1

I never thought I would be starting one of these Alpha/Beta, but some recent situations made me think - is there any way to not be Beta on dates? It seems like whatever you're doing, even while subscribing to to "traditional" gender roles where you're masculine as fuck by taking the lead, you're still trying to impress a woman, which they hate, as we all know.


Here's some background:
Met a girl recently - super cute, perfect body, just turned 23, originally from Russia, but came to the USA when she was 10 (exactly like me).
Our date was incredible - we drank, made out, and practicably had 95% of stuff in common. If there was ever a time where a first date would lead to a 2nd - this was it.

But yesterday evening - I get the most generic brush off text in history of brush off texts - "Hey I've been thinking that it's probably best if we don't go out again, I'm in the middle of figuring out grad school and may be going away soon and it's just not smart, therefore I think it's best we just stay friends".

Now - I start thinking - where in this date did I go wrong? Physically - I was looking good that night, dressed well, plus I'm 6'2, so height has never been an issue. Work wise I've never come off as a chump, our conversation couldn't have gone any better. I picked the activities we did that night and took the lead in all of them. There were literally no holes in my game that night.


But that's when it hit me - all the shit I did - all the leading, grooming and game tightening was to impress this chick. There was simply none of the "I don't give a fuck" attitude that hot 23 year old girls crave and lust after.
And then I think - was it ever even established? Is it possible to establish? I met this girl because I hit on her. I went out with her because I got her number and then gave her a call. Moving the interaction forward was done entirely by me.

She had absolutely nothing to chase, because I was doing all the work, but I never would have gotten anywhere if I haven't done any of the work. This is the dilemma of modern dating.


So - RVF members - what could I have done better? What are some proven and tested ways to be more Alpha on dates and turn the element of "chasing" on her? Or should I just brush this off as a bad experience?

Post: #2

I will say that in my experience, Russian girls are tough to game. They put up a big front. I'm not sure how to crack it. There are probably a lot of very alpha guys in Russia, and girls come here with preconceptions about American men.

Does this happen with other chicks?

Post: #3

I went on my LAST date a few weeks ago. Bought this ho drinks well, because, when you go on a "date" that's what you sign up for. Got a bj that night from a 6 and thought eh why not buy her a few more drinks on date two, get the notch, and move on. And yes, I'm in a dry streak so that's the only reason I'm fucking with a 6 in the first place. Anyway, second date and she wants to sleep over again except this time we mess around a little and then SHE WANTS TO GO TO SLEEP. I'm like fuck that you have to go and as I'm kicking her out she's saying "who do you think you are?!" and acting all offended. I said to myself that's it, no more dates.

I think you're definitely right, dating IS beta (in the U.S.) because even if you're not trying to impress her, you're still signing yourself up for buying a few drinks and doing the whole courting procedure.

Also on looking good, I've found recently as I increase my approaches and improve my game, that I get way better results by wearing a v-neck and maybe a cardigan (tosh.o look) than doing a blazer or suiting up. Bitches (in the venues I'm hitting up) seem much more into guys that don't try. Wearing that freshly ironed button down I believe is also seen as "trying", thus "beta", and has poorer results (in higher end joints you have to dress up a little so it's different).

No more dates for me, no matter if it's a hot girl or if I'm in a dry streak. American girls are, as a whole, either down for SNL or want to be courted and wined and dined. If she's an 8+ then maybe 2-3 dates could be worth the notch, but I think there are enough 8+s that can be pulled for a SNL that it makes dating moot and can even fuck it up for you as I think you saw with the Russian

Depends on what you're looking, but young hot Westernized girls want randomness and spontaneity which is the exact OPPOSITE of what a date is, regardless of what they say they want.

My approach going forward is the "I'll be at xyz bar, you should come" type of post-number set up. It makes sense to me because even the act of trying to set something formal up seems "beta". Even "let's get a drink at xyz bar at 9" is trying too hard I think. Flip the script and imply that if she wants to meet someone cool she can come to you while you're already out having fun and doing what you want to do. Make her integrate herself into what you're already doing. All the better if, when she shows up, you've already met other girls there and you introduce her to your "new friends". You can always tell her you arrived there with some of your friends but they already left if you don't want to give off a player vibe.

Post: #4

By the way, I still believe that love can be a good thing. I just think it's more important to have options whether or not you are in a relationship with someone.

Post: #5

So what would the alternative be, ONS only? I have had bad luck progressing to day 2 lately, even if the initial interaction was solid.

Post: #6

Sounds like the OP had "too much" in common with the girl and she labeled him "safe."

A 23 year old girl doesn't want a "safe" guy. They don't want the whole package or to even think about where a relationship would lead to (i.e. marriage, kids, etc.).

They just want to have some fun.

Believe me, I've been there. I think we all have...

Post: #7

Don't respond to her text and see what happens.

She's you.

Post: #8

Been off and on on the forum lately been busy and trying to take a break but this thread just screams obvious.

Why are you guys spending thousands on suits if you're young?

Why are you guys going on dates when you can just go out and drink + dance + have sex with less than $50?

It makes no sense to court in America the environment doesn't need it. By courting you are then placing yourself into "boyfriend" territory instead of fuck buddy territory. No brainer.

This is also why you guys are going to see the same old tired young versus old guy game debates. When you are young you can't possibly be successful/worldy in the eyes of a young female on first glance because you look "immature".

Basically dates are for fools or for older guys trying to stick to a rotation. Just walk around and run "d-bag game" v-necks, henleys, wife beaters. When you begin looking mature go buy suits.

Just think about it logically why is there a debate on high end looks and young guys.

Here is why: young guys are seen as immature so you have to be fun and crazy "their worldview is not shattered" if you are boring you're done. If you are older and you try to run this game you will be blown out, just think about the six flags commercial of the old guy doing crazy dance moves it is retarded because he is old and "high energy".

With all that said any young guy on his forum needs to just lift some weights, run d-bag life of party fun guy game, then transfer to suits when he looks thirty.

All this does not require dates. Dates = raise expectations of the girl = waste of your own money and time.

(04-17-2013 11:38 AM)presidentcarter Wrote:  I went on my LAST date a few weeks ago. Bought this ho drinks well, because, when you go on a "date" that's what you sign up for. Got a bj that night from a 6 and thought eh why not buy her a few more drinks on date two, get the notch, and move on. And yes, I'm in a dry streak so that's the only reason I'm fucking with a 6 in the first place. Anyway, second date and she wants to sleep over again except this time we mess around a little and then SHE WANTS TO GO TO SLEEP. I'm like fuck that you have to go and as I'm kicking her out she's saying "who do you think you are?!" and acting all offended. I said to myself that's it, no more dates.

I think you're definitely right, dating IS beta (in the U.S.) because even if you're not trying to impress her, you're still signing yourself up for buying a few drinks and doing the whole courting procedure.

Also on looking good, I've found recently as I increase my approaches and improve my game, that I get way better results by wearing a v-neck and maybe a cardigan (tosh.o look) than doing a blazer or suiting up. Bitches (in the venues I'm hitting up) seem much more into guys that don't try. Wearing that freshly ironed button down I believe is also seen as "trying", thus "beta", and has poorer results (in higher end joints you have to dress up a little so it's different).

No more dates for me, no matter if it's a hot girl or if I'm in a dry streak. American girls are, as a whole, either down for SNL or want to be courted and wined and dined. If she's an 8+ then maybe 2-3 dates could be worth the notch, but I think there are enough 8+s that can be pulled for a SNL that it makes dating moot and can even fuck it up for you as I think you saw with the Russian

Depends on what you're looking, but young hot Westernized girls want randomness and spontaneity which is the exact OPPOSITE of what a date is, regardless of what they say they want.

My approach going forward is the "I'll be at xyz bar, you should come" type of post-number set up. It makes sense to me because even the act of trying to set something formal up seems "beta". Even "let's get a drink at xyz bar at 9" is trying too hard I think. Flip the script and imply that if she wants to meet someone cool she can come to you while you're already out having fun and doing what you want to do. Make her integrate herself into what you're already doing. All the better if, when she shows up, you've already met other girls there and you introduce her to your "new friends". You can always tell her you arrived there with some of your friends but they already left if you don't want to give off a player vibe.

Post: #9

Thank you everyone for the wonderful insight on this thread.

(04-17-2013 11:49 AM)Gallego2006 Wrote:  Sounds like the OP had "too much" in common with the girl and she labeled him "safe."

A 23 year old girl doesn't want a "safe" guy. They don't want the whole package or to even think about where a relationship would lead to (i.e. marriage, kids, etc.).

They just want to have some fun.

Believe me, I've been there. I think we all have...

This made a lot of sense. We had way too much in common. Now that I think about it - this has happened in the past - the second I begin to feel "something more" and relax - she drops me like a bad habit

(04-17-2013 11:50 AM)el mechanico Wrote:  Don't respond to her text and see what happens.

She's you.

Haven't responded yet. I think this situation might be salvageable with some radio silence and good texting


I just hate running the d-bag game all the time. There are times I want to chill and have a good conversation with someone - and I end up cock blocking myself. Such a shame

Post: #10

KS, The situation could be somewhat out of your hands.

I recently dated a solid 9 in SF so I can tell you girls like that always have options. No matter how well it went, there could be another guy in the picture who is more alpha than you, or who she is more into.

It might really have nothing to do with how you handled the date, or the fact that it was a "date."

I do agree though that trying to set up something "formal" now would not be the best move. I like the "I'll be here, you come if you want" vibe. Having other girls there unspontaneously might be a little try-hard.

Post: #11

(04-17-2013 01:04 PM)Sugar Wrote:  KS, The situation could be somewhat out of your hands.

I recently dated a solid 9 in SF so I can tell you girls like that always have options. No matter how well it went, there could be another guy in the picture who is more alpha than you, or who she is more into.

It might really have nothing to do with how you handled the date, or the fact that it was a "date."

Maybe but she also doesn't know what she's dealing with here. The RVF hivemind.

Don't send her shit! I ignore any message or statement I don't want to hear, Sometimes I wont respond or send a message back that shows clearly I don't give a fuck what she said.

Russian girl : Hey el mechanico it's me Natasha. I had a great time last night, maybe too great..I think we should put this on hold and be friends as I'm going away to live.

Two days later

El mech: I've been busy let's get some drinks later

Post: #12

(04-17-2013 11:50 AM)el mechanico Wrote:  Don't respond to her text and see what happens.

She's you.

I would text back "alright, later".

It's very hard to change a girl's mind and if she wants to come chasing, she will and will get that urge to by you displaying that you're not bothered. The girl I'm seeing at the moment told me "when you said 'no', it made me really horny".

Move on to the next one.

Post: #13

Matt I'm amazed a girl would ever admit that although we know its true
what was the context of the no?

Post: #14

It's such a cop-out for her to send that kind of text, that I wouldn't even reply.

You'd be surprised if you run into her again -- months later. She'll probably be warm and friendly. Be ready for that.

Post: #15

"So - RVF members - what could I have done better?"

Sexualize earlier? Kill the date and go for the private time? It was going well, why are you going to hang out and be her puppet longer?

If you have to ask, "is this activity beta?" then you're the beta whether the activity is or not.

Post: #16

Depends on your definition of "date".

Spending alot of time/money/energy for NO SEX = Beta

Having her come over your house with food and alcohol that she paid for and banging you for 2 hours then leaving = Alpha

Return on Investment is the key here.

Post: #17

(04-17-2013 01:32 PM)MrXY Wrote:  Matt I'm amazed a girl would ever admit that although we know its true
what was the context of the no?

We were on our first date, had already kissed and she asked at the next bar if she could kiss me again. I said no, and voila. She told me by text the next day, but I already knew because of her eyes when I said it. It was like in that video Heartiste posted about the chick asking for ice cream.

Post: #18

I think this might have something to do with your "we have 95% in common" comment.

If you have just met this girl, been on just a few dates, you should not have had conversations where you are already beginning to know everything about each other.

Yes, it's amazing you're both from Russia. The fact you both moved here at the same age is like fucking serendipity. The only issue is you are likely boring her with the obvious and leaving the aloofness/mystery completely at the curb.

People enjoy commonality but women who might be attracted to you prefer the unknown while slowly learning about commonalities you might have. I realize why you'd want to jump in head first because of how you finally met a chick you can completely relate with, but alas you didn't realize the pool was only 5 feet deep.

Stop spending so much, continue being interesting and do your very best to always offer as little about yourself as you possibly can. The reward of her loyalty and availability is you slowly making yourself more open and forthcoming about yourself.

Drag it on as long as you can because when the mystery is gone the relationship is on life support. Look at many of the married couple.

Post: #19

What kind of dates are you going on? My date is usually share two to four drinks at a bar and transition to a lounge, or if the date is really well transition to my apartment. Better to take things fast and physical and keep the conversation light then hear everything about every pet she ever owned, the one time in elementary school she had a formative experience, etc.

Post: #20

Doesn't sound like you banged her. No way she'll stick around. You're NYC, right? No fuckin way.

Post: #21

(04-17-2013 11:32 AM)soup Wrote:  I will say that in my experience, Russian girls are tough to game. They put up a big front. I'm not sure how to crack it. There are probably a lot of very alpha guys in Russia, and girls come here with preconceptions about American men.

Does this happen with other chicks?

I have found the same thing about Russian women living in the states. Always a fight with them. Always a hard exterior. Even the ones who don't look as good.

Had a Russian girl say she was gonna call the cops on me in the street the other day. Ultimate shit test or crazy bitch?

I said, "call them."


The second she texted you that you shouldn't go out again you should have agreed and amplified.

"You're right. We shouldn't do this. This is wrong. So glad we are on the same page." Etc

That night or maybe even now you could have hit her with a few, "I think you're going to be a cool friend." Type lines.

Or game another girl on front of her.

Sounds like you like her and wanna try to re spark that flame. Next time you text her tell her you're going out with some girls you recently met and see if she wants to come.

Could just be because y'all are to similar though. Maybe she didn't like your 'scent.'

Post: #22

Russian girls=my Everest for life. Just getting started. I trust what you guys are saying about their difficulty and hard shells.

So I met a hot girl from Yekaterinburg on Saturday (moved here three years ago, student, 8/9). She was the typical Russian hottie, tall, super thin, nice tits (maybe even implants?), and she had braces which I made fun of her about. Texted her last night:

Me: "Hey it's presidentcarter from Moe's Tavern what's up"
Her (3 hours later): "Hey Kyle, sorry just saw your msg, was on training, how are you?"
Me: "Just left the office hah" (worked til midnight last night)
Me: "What are you training for"
Her: "Capoeira, I'm sorry, have to go to sleep, talk to you later"

Post: #23

(04-17-2013 03:18 PM)presidentcarter Wrote:  Russian girls=my Everest for life. Just getting started. I trust what you guys are saying about their difficulty and hard shells.

So I met a hot girl from Yekaterinburg on Saturday (moved here three years ago, student, 8/9) the other night. Texted her last night:

Me: "Hey it's presidentcarter from Moe's Tavern what's up"
Her (3 hours later): "Hey Kyle, sorry just saw your msg, was on training, how are you?"
Me: "Just left the office hah" (worked til midnight last night)
Me: "What are you training for"
Her: "Capoeira, I'm sorry, have to go to sleep, talk to you later"

Burn. Hate that. "THESE BITCHES DON'T KNOW WHO I AM!!!???"

Is what I say when that happens to me. Haha.

Post: #24

She saw you as "dating material" and is not yet ready to get off the carousel.

Post: #25

Send her a dick pic.