Post: #51

A very interesting chart from 2012:


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17155304

Post: #52

I recall a takimag article which asked the reader to imagine the scene of a fender bender in Germany, and then the scene of a fender bender in Greece.

Which incident invokes an image of the two drivers getting to the side of the road, exchanging insurance information, taking a few photos, and getting on with their business?

Which incident invokes the image of two men blocking traffic as they gesticulate with each other in the middle of the street?

In short, it works in Germany because it is filled with Germans.

But don't fall into the danger of stereotypes to guide your observations and block out new insight. Socialism in Germany works, for now. Which is a bit of an illogical sentence in that it equates German socialism with all other apparitions of socialism and the nation of Germany with all past and future notions of Germany.

So more accurately:
There are policies of the modern German government which are viewed by a plurality of its citizens and many outside observers to effectively serve the national populace of Germany. These policies are often associated in the United States as an ideology of so called "socialism" which possess a fiercely negative connotation to many Americans in part because of some similarity to the policies of the Former Soviet Union.

Specific policies, such as universal health care, are met with criticism by those who mostly either prefer the personal control, either real or imagined, of consumer choices less regulated centrally by a legislature, or they do not analyze said policies to share the similar positive effects of the German example on account of differences in economic operations, demographics, or a host of other reasons.

Post: #53

Germany is itself a nice country to live with about eighty holidays a year. It's easy to get a lot of shit done when you work fewer hours.

Post: #54

(04-11-2013 01:36 AM)EisenBarde Wrote:  So more accurately:
There are policies of the modern German government which are viewed by a plurality of its citizens and many outside observers to effectively serve the national populace of Germany. These policies are often associated in the United States as an ideology of so called "socialism" which possess a fiercely negative connotation to many Americans in part because of some similarity to the policies of the Former Soviet Union.

Which isn't a great deal different to what has been expressed.

Germany is full of Germans. Socialism there works because they are on the same page, and agree to a common direction. Much of this is helped in part by being an educated people.

It probably won't work in the current day U.S., because there is a virulent style of individualism and no real empathy for the being a part in the betterment of one's peers. They should have worked harder/studied more/do what I did and bust my ass!/etc.

German's don't care about socialised medicine, because they're main concern is seeing their peers healthy. Americans do due to 'this is my tax dollars [email protected]!!, or the perceived affects on liberty due to a centralised direction.

Post: #55

Yes, but you can make a statement such as "German socialism works!" which could be interpreted wildly in many ways, each of which carry their own references to the words "socialism" or even "works"

Examples:
Current policies of the Bundestag
German National Socialism (Nazism)
Socialism as understood as complete central planning, which Germany is not.
The policies of East Germany during Soviet control.

This style of speech, which I am often guilty of perpetrating, is indicative of incomplete and possibly inaccurate collection of facts which lead to circular arguments which stem entirely from a lack of the coherent sense of the words we use.

We can jump to abstractions without first understanding or defining why we make those abstractions. The world socialism can not mean the EXACT same thing at all times in all places.

Post: #56

I would ask the question, how is Germany more socialist than the United States? For example, the US Government spends more per student than Germany, only outpaced by Luxembourg, Switzerland, and Norway in this regard. Funny thing is, prior to the inception of the Department of Education, America was at the top of the education rankings for OECD countries. Now our education system is on par with Poland.
http://articles.businessinsider.com/2012...e-spending

Now, I know government spending on education is not the only metric, healthcare works the same way as well and the numbers are similar. In fact, I think we are actually ranked higher in our government spending on healthcare, but our ranking as far as quality goes is even lower.

I don't think this proves that socialism works at all, in fact, it proves the opposite, when we were less socialist, we were a far more competent nation. It isn't that socialism is more successful in Germany, it is just that they have less of it than we do. It is analogous to saying Germany and America are two girls. It isn't that Germany is hot and America isn't, it is that Germany isn't quite as bland or average as America is. And that is what socialism is at the end, a devolution to mediocrity, to a very low common denominator.

As an American, I don't envy the Germans at all, I think any financial crisis will hit them before it hits us considering they are tied to the Euro and a Eurozone economy which is getting more unstable by the day.

Post: #57

(04-10-2013 05:49 PM)Greek kamaki Wrote:  German system can work only in Germany because people are very smart there and their high IQs allow for a very high level of organization which is impossible in other countries.All parts of the machine work coordinated and harmonically bringing maximum result and effectivity impression.There are one million things which make Germany.
American system is one of indigenous optimism that everything is possible after education regardless of the people involved in it.Americans are not equal in any sense.There are huge differences in race,culture,education,income,personal abilities.Germans balance around a high average much more than Americans and this allows socialistic distribution of income without it looking unnatural.(so what if sb works 20% more and gets 20% less? if it is good for the balance of the system?).

Managers in Germany are usually former workers who know the practical aspects of the job very well,have respect from the other workers and get paid just 1.5 or double more than them while in USA they do not come from workers stock and get paid 100 times more.The difference in view of who actually gets the job done and needs to rewarded is clear.Germans take pride in their achievements as workers they do not regard them as obligatory,despised labor and do not react as herd but with personal individuality and responsibility.It is taken for granted there that you think and take intitiatives for quality improvement instead of applying strict fool proof guidelines.
This again is possible cause of the high intelligence and diligence of the German population.They are generally very accurate both in speech and hand movements.They act and think insanely fast.They are also natuarl managers and leaders.(no relation to passive Slavs or lazy Mediteraneans).Generally the Germans are hektisch they always want to do sth they never relax.

Greek Kamaki keeping it real as always!

Post: #58

I'll admit true socialism doesn't work on a large scale but here's few facts for everybody knocking it:

- Homo Sapiens' original 'societal' structure (as with our closest species, chimps and bonobos) was basically what Lenin was striving for after the proletariat revolution and the intermediate stages of communism - a 'utopia' where there was no government and everybody shared everything (raising children for females, hunting and gathering [working] for both males and females, and sex [multimale / multifemale sexual relationships - no monogamy/hypergamy/polygamy/pair-bonding to speak of etc.). Now this has obviously evolved to work in bands of only 20 - 25 but it still worked for us and our more recent ancestors for about 10 million years.

Post: #59

I would say that it's because Germany gives a shit about their workers.

In Germany, the companies appreciate the manual labor you do in the factories. They reward you with more time off with your families. In the EU, you must get 20 days a year that's paid time off. In the US, 2 weeks out of the year is considered good, and in many places, unheard of. Workers who spend less time off are also less productive overall.

Here's some information about Germany's minimum wage laws.

Quote: None; except for construction workers, electrical workers, janitors, roofers, painters, and letter carriers. Minimum wage is often set by collective bargaining agreements in other sectors of the economy and enforceable by law

Looks like minimum wage laws are there to protect people working relatively shitty jobs.

In some places, they even have two hours set aside during lunch breaks to go home to your family and eat at the dinner table. They do that with the public school system in some places, I've heard.

I don't know if the public school system has much less homework, but they do have much more rigorous testing (Abitur anyone?), which increases the academic success of boys. Males in general do much worse in academic systems where the tests aren't as high stake and there's more homework. Long story short, it's boring as shit.

German youth in primary school also get out of school before lunch so they can go home to eat at the dinner table and play around outside. Boys who spend all day in school without any physical activity get depressed and do worse academically. The children who eat at the dinner table and spend time with their family are a lot less likely to do things like drop out of school.

Our system rewards the ever loving shit out of girls from day 1. I got the impression that Germans care about the girls, but they invest more of their resources in making sure their boys become productive members of society, instead of treating them like shit in feminized public schools. I don't like harping about misandry, but if you introduce that kind of institutionalized shame early enough, they carry that for the rest of their lives.



Boys who do well in school are more motivated to go out into the workforce after college and flex their academic nuts, as opposed to going to college to take an easier major, piss away tens of thousands of dollars doing so, and then wondering why the entire world doesn't acquiesce to give them a job in Communications, Business Management, or Sociology. They also weed out the dumber ones by sending them to different schools after the Abitur exam. These guys learn how to work manual labor jobs, which is what they would have done anyway.

I know some dumb ass dudes who failed their majors in Exercise Science, and now have nothing to show for the last four years of their lives.

Maybe I'm just making shit up, but that's what I saw when I was over there.

Post: #60

Very interesting question. I think it boils down to very different core values. Freedom (whether real or just perceived) in the US and security in Germany.

Post: #61

Another thing I noticed with German workers is that the employer doesn't treat employees as expendable pieces of shit, like they do in the US.

In a raw economic stance, it does not make much sense to treat your lower employees like they are valuable because any average Joe with a high school education can sweep floors or mop out the bathrooms. In the US, employers greatly emphasize getting results and squeezing more productivity out of their workers so they can hire fewer of them. There's no honor in a job like that.

This is inverted in Germany because they give titles like "Hausmeister" even to their custodians. Literally means "Master of the House". I knew a guy there who basically did janitorial work.
He loved his job because he got to sit in at the higher functions in the business (though he did not enjoy the meetings to a large degree) to represent his needs and the employers responded. The employers gave him benefits and a budget to work in without questioning his authority within the workings of the grounds. You get daily challenges like that and all of a sudden the job doesn't blow ass. Being productive is incentivized.

Post: #62

(04-11-2013 12:05 AM)T and A Man Wrote:  

(04-10-2013 08:22 PM)tenderman100 Wrote:  America has Bill Gates. Germany doesn't.

American had Steve Jobs. Germany didn't...and never will.

America innovates amazing advances -- Germany advances the design and technology of things already created.

America pushes the envelope and its entrepreneurs take risks -- Germany stay inside the envelope.

Karl Benz, Werner von Braun, Albert Einstein say hello.

How about Johannes Gutenberg, Conrad Röntgen, Rudolf Diesel, Manfred von Ardenne, Hugo Junkers, Philipp Reis, Konrad Zuse...

Post: #63

(04-11-2013 01:36 AM)EisenBarde Wrote:  So more accurately:
There are policies of the modern German government which are viewed by a plurality of its citizens and many outside observers to effectively serve the national populace of Germany. These policies are often associated in the United States as an ideology of so called "socialism" which possess a fiercely negative connotation to many Americans in part because of some similarity to the policies of the Former Soviet Union.

Right. So when we say "socialism" in the context of Germany we actually mean "social democracy", where more of the risks/rewards in the economy are shared across the society, hence "social" economy. This is opposed to a pure capitalistic society, where the risks/rewards are much more individual. It is also different from a centrally planned economy (think old Soviet Union, old Communist Eastern Europe, Cuba, etc), which some people call "socialism" and this confuses the two definitions.

Post: #64

(04-10-2013 08:22 PM)tenderman100 Wrote:  America innovates amazing advances -- Germany advances the design and technology of things already created.

Operation Paperclip is the first thing that comes to mind; the USA saved many German scientists from war crimes and gave them citizenship in return for their knowledge. There would have been no lunar landing without German rocket engineering... or the atomic bomb. Many German scientists were lined up and executed by Nazis when they realized their imminent loss, just so other countries couldn't have them.
Karl Benz definitely stands out.. Mercedes is responsible for inventing airbags, abs brakes, crumple zones..etc.

Post: #65

(04-11-2013 05:53 AM)tjuan Wrote:  Many German scientists were lined up and executed by Nazis when they realized their imminent loss, just so other countries couldn't have them.

Huh? Got any source for that? The Nazis weren't particularly concerned with their scientists falling in the wrong hands at the end of the war. Rather it was the US and the scientists themselves fearing they'd end up in the USSR that was the concern.

Post: #66

One piece of the puzzle most people dont know about the german labour system is "dual education" apprenticeship. qualifying skilled workers and craftsmen to do quality work.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_education_system

Post: #67

Germans are successful because because they are Germans to start with. Germans have the strictest work ethics, best work mentality and never seem to give up. Two things define Germans from the rest of the world and it is said best in their own language.

1 - "Befehl ist befehl" which translates to "An order is an order" Germans do not question their boss. They do what they're told. German organisations are very strict. They do not know such a thing as "yes, but..."
That's how it has been in all German levels of society but is best known in the Militairy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders

2 - "Deutsche gründlichkeit" which is hard to translate (help needed from a native German) but it comes down to precision/perfectionism. Anything made in Germany is build to last forever and technically perfect.

An example is the German WW2 Tiger tank. It was the perfect machine in every way possible. It was so perfect that it took ages to fabricate while the Russian tanks where basically pieces of junk but mass produced by the thousands with horrible welding and many flaws. No Russian tank looked alike while German tiger tanks where perfect clones. These Tiger tanks was so strong that Russian tanks had to sometimes form a circle around a Tiger and to keep firing at close range at it until it broke. That's also how the German ship the Bismarck was sunk. One lucky hit destroyed its rudder and left it steer less and then allied ships formed a circle and fired relentlessly on it for days until it sank.

Germans have an indestructible spirit also best shown in WW2. They'll fight till the end. They still do in Football.

Japanese people have the same mentality and there is for sure a correlation between them. Both started major imperial wars, both fought to the end, both countries were utterly blown to bits ( as in a totally destroyed infrastructure and completely leveled cities) but both countries were an economic superpower again after only a few decades.

All due to their strong mentality. It has next to nothing to do with socialism.

Post: #68

(04-11-2013 06:32 AM)void Wrote:  One piece of the puzzle most people dont know about the german labour system is "dual education" apprenticeship. qualifying skilled workers and craftsmen to do quality work.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_education_system

Yup, thats why German craftsmen are among the best worldwide. Even a hairdresser has to go through 2-3 years of theoretical and practical schooling before he is allowed to work.

Post: #69

Good points Neil, but I still think there is much to learn from their economic model

Post: #70

(04-11-2013 05:53 AM)tjuan Wrote:  Karl Benz definitely stands out.. Mercedes is responsible for inventing airbags, abs brakes, crumple zones..etc.

In 1974, GM made the ACRS or "Air Cushion Restraint System" available as a regular production option (RPO code AR3) in full-size Cadillac,[18] Buick and Oldsmobile models. The GM cars from the 1970s equipped with ACRS have a driver side airbag, a driver side knee restraint[19] (which consists of a padded lower dashboard) and a passenger side airbag. The passenger side airbag, protects both front passengers[19] and unlike most newer ones, it integrates a knee cushion, a torso cushion and it also has dual stage deployment which varies depending on the force of the impact. The cars equipped with ACRS have lap belts for all seating positions but they do not have shoulder belts. These were already mandatory equipment in the United States on closed cars without airbags for the driver and outer front passenger seating positions.

In 1981, Mercedes-Benz introduced the airbag in Germany as an option on its high-end S-Class (W126).

Chrysler, together with the Bendix Corporation, introduced a computerized, three-channel, four-sensor all-wheel[6] ABS called "Sure Brake" for its 1971 Imperial.[7] It was available for several years thereafter, functioned as intended, and proved reliable. In 1970, Ford added an antilock braking system called "Sure-track" to the rear wheels of Lincoln Continentals as an option;[8] it became standard in 1971.[9] In 1971, General Motors introduced the "Trackmaster" rear-wheel only[10] ABS as an option on their rear-wheel drive Cadillac models[11][12][13] and the Oldsmobile Toronado.[14] In the same year, Nissan offered an EAL (Electro Anti-lock System) as an option on the Nissan President, which became Japan's first electronic ABS.[15]

The first Mercedes with ABS was the 1978 450SEL.


Keep drinking that German Koolaid.

Post: #71

(04-11-2013 12:05 AM)T and A Man Wrote:  

(04-10-2013 08:22 PM)tenderman100 Wrote:  America has Bill Gates. Germany doesn't.

American had Steve Jobs. Germany didn't...and never will.

America innovates amazing advances -- Germany advances the design and technology of things already created.

America pushes the envelope and its entrepreneurs take risks -- Germany stay inside the envelope.

Karl Benz, Werner von Braun, Albert Einstein say hello.

They can't say hello. They're dead. They're from a different time. We're talking TODAY.

Jobs is dead, true, but he wouldn't have been dead had he paid attention to his doctor.

Where are the great innovators and entrepreneurs in German business today? Who has built an great company from the ground up? Who are the game changers? Can you name me one?

Post: #72

(04-11-2013 07:18 AM)Neil Skywalker Wrote:  Germans are successful because because they are Germans to start with. Germans have the strictest work ethics, best work mentality and never seem to give up. Two things define Germans from the rest of the world and it is said best in their own language.

1 - "Befehl ist befehl" which translates to "An order is an order" Germans do not question their boss. They do what they're told. German organisations are very strict. They do not know such a thing as "yes, but..."
That's how it has been in all German levels of society but is best known in the Militairy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders

That "order" quote is interesting for obvious reasons. Wish I'd known about it when I was doing my final dissertation. (It was about Himmler's culpability for the holocaust)

German's (the ones I know) are awesome, but as others have said, they are really hard working and very efficient, even in their personal lives. The way they interact and everything is very down the line. It can come across as rude sometimes, but it isn't coming from a bad place - it's just the way they get things done. It isn't "Hey, we've run out of sugar, could you go to the shop please", it's more like "We are out of sugar, this must be replaced". Haha, maybe not quite as robotic as that, but you get the point.

I love Germany, if the women were slimmer, I'd relocate there in a heartbeat.

Post: #73

(04-11-2013 09:38 AM)tenderman100 Wrote:  

(04-11-2013 12:05 AM)T and A Man Wrote:  

(04-10-2013 08:22 PM)tenderman100 Wrote:  America has Bill Gates. Germany doesn't.

American had Steve Jobs. Germany didn't...and never will.

America innovates amazing advances -- Germany advances the design and technology of things already created.

America pushes the envelope and its entrepreneurs take risks -- Germany stay inside the envelope.

Karl Benz, Werner von Braun, Albert Einstein say hello.

They can't say hello. They're dead. They're from a different time. We're talking TODAY.

Jobs is dead, true, but he wouldn't have been dead had he paid attention to his doctor.

Where are the great innovators and entrepreneurs in German business today? Who has built an great company from the ground up? Who are the game changers? Can you name me one?

Germany is one of the worlds economic super powers c'mon now. I know you are a free market fundamentalist but it seems a bit much to deny facts to suit a political agenda

Post: #74

(04-11-2013 09:38 AM)tenderman100 Wrote:  

(04-11-2013 12:05 AM)T and A Man Wrote:  

(04-10-2013 08:22 PM)tenderman100 Wrote:  America has Bill Gates. Germany doesn't.

American had Steve Jobs. Germany didn't...and never will.

America innovates amazing advances -- Germany advances the design and technology of things already created.

America pushes the envelope and its entrepreneurs take risks -- Germany stay inside the envelope.

Karl Benz, Werner von Braun, Albert Einstein say hello.

They can't say hello. They're dead. They're from a different time. We're talking TODAY.

Jobs is dead, true, but he wouldn't have been dead had he paid attention to his doctor.

Where are the great innovators and entrepreneurs in German business today? Who has built an great company from the ground up? Who are the game changers? Can you name me one?

SAP

Post: #75

I'm sorry if this has been mentioned already. I haven't had the chance to read the whole thread yet.

Basically a "socialist" USA will be the worst of both worlds. i.e. It will be a system that effortlessly and perfectly combines the very....WORST of both Capitalism and Socialism. I know your question is WHY this is the case, and I don't really have much of an answer. The origin of the USA, as far as I'm concerned, was based on what we now called Libertarianism. While the US has moved very far from those ideals they haven't been lost entirely. The population will not accept true socialism, and this gives politicians the chance to partially advance their socialist ideals (Yes, I think Obama is doing this), while at the same time advancing their friends capitalist enterprises (yes, I think Obama is doing this as well, as did Bush). The current modern day Libertarians throwing a spoke in their wheels are the tech and other entrepreneurs who develop "disruptive' business models.

As an aside: Just to rub salt in the wound I'll point out that the statutory minimum annual vacation allowance in Germany is.......4 weeks. Yep, that's right twice the typical US allowance. And actually most companies offer more than this. 6 weeks is very common, even as a new employee. As it is in many Northern European countries.