Post: #1

So I'm a skinny guy getting started out at the gym.

I had read several places of a basic program to bulk up of 5x5 of the heaviest weight you can do, focusing on basic compound exercises like squats, deadlifts, rows, bench, shoulder press, etc.

I've started doing this and it gets me dead tired very quickly. Doing absolutely as much as I can, of course, is exhausting.

But afterwards I don't feel deeply sore.

When i've done more reps, even if the weight is lower, I feel like the day after I'm much more sore.

For instance, I did a day with just squats, deadlifts, and rows. I didn't do close to my max, and I did some sets up to 20 times, other ones 10 times.

I'd say I did something like 5 or 6 sets of 8-12 at weights that got me tired but allowed me to complete this many reps.

Also, spending more time in the gym, I notice lots of big guys are doing way more than 5 reps of a given exercise.

Is the whole 5x5 thing some internet nonsense?

And does soreness the day after even correlate to how much muscle you're building? For instance, running 5 miles my legs would be sore as hell, but obviously not getting any bigger.

Post: #2

the 5x5 usually starts off at very low weight and you use progressive overload (ie adding more weight each session).

Soreness doesn't equal gains.

First find a program and then stick to it. You're a beginner and you will make gains if you stick to any beginner program and eat sufficient food.

You also don't have to be tired to make gains. I just started madcow.
Tomorrow my squats will be 5x 140,175,210,245,280 The only one that I even barely break a sweat on is the last set at 280 I'm out of the gym in 30 minutes and obliterating old prs (recently I hit an almost 100lb deadlift PR after not even being able to move the weight from the ground before I started madcow).

Post: #3

idk but everyone out there seems to have some theory. When it comes to fitness and nutrition, theories are a dime a dozen. i'd like to know if there is actual proof that certain routines and methods result in more hypertrophy and strength.

Not to thread hijack but Does anyone know for a fact that resting muscles every other day is more beneficial for hypertrophy and strenth? I only work 6 months a year so I have loads of time to workout.

Post: #4

(04-01-2013 10:57 PM)relo Wrote:  idk but everyone out there seems to have some theory. When it comes to fitness and nutrition, theories are a dime a dozen. i'd like to know if there is actual proof that certain routines and methods result in more hypertrophy and strength.

Not to thread hijack but Does anyone know for a fact that resting muscles every other day is more beneficial for hypertrophy and strenth? I only work 6 months a year so I have loads of time to workout.

nm found some stuff with google.

"f your family was captured and you were told you needed to put 100 pounds onto your max squat within two months or your family would be executed, would you squat once per week? Something tells me that you'd start squatting every day. Other countries have this mindset. America does not."

– John Broz

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_arti..._every_day

Post: #5

Go to http://www.stronglifts.com
Download the e-book from there.
If you have an iphone there is an app from tracking your progress.

Post: #6

(04-01-2013 10:53 PM)WesternCancer Wrote:  Soreness doesn't equal gains.

Truth. Just because you don't feel sore or get that pump doesn't mean your muscles ain't growing.

As far as 5x5 or 3x10 etc, as a rule compound lifts like squats and deadlifts should be closer to 5x5 where isolation movements like bicep curls or tri extensions should be closer to 3x12 but there is no set rule since every persons body grows differently.

Post: #7

(04-01-2013 10:57 PM)relo Wrote:  idk but everyone out there seems to have some theory. When it comes to fitness and nutrition, theories are a dime a dozen. i'd like to know if there is actual proof that certain routines and methods result in more hypertrophy and strength.

Not to thread hijack but Does anyone know for a fact that resting muscles every other day is more beneficial for hypertrophy and strenth? I only work 6 months a year so I have loads of time to workout.

consistently eating non-processed foods (in a caloric excess) while lifting heavy weights 3 times a week to get bigger and stronger doesn't really seem like much of a theory to me.

Test something out and see if it works instead of talking about it on the internet.

Post: #8

(04-01-2013 11:15 PM)WesternCancer Wrote:  

(04-01-2013 10:57 PM)relo Wrote:  idk but everyone out there seems to have some theory. When it comes to fitness and nutrition, theories are a dime a dozen. i'd like to know if there is actual proof that certain routines and methods result in more hypertrophy and strength.

Not to thread hijack but Does anyone know for a fact that resting muscles every other day is more beneficial for hypertrophy and strenth? I only work 6 months a year so I have loads of time to workout.

consistently eating non-processed foods (in a caloric excess) while lifting heavy weights 3 times a week to get bigger and stronger doesn't really seem like much of a theory to me.

Test something out and see if it works instead of talking about it on the internet.

what the fuck are you talking about?

Post: #9

I think that lifting twice a week is minimum for maintenance.

I'm sold on 20 rep squats. From now on I'm going to do nothing but 15 rep, 20 rep, and 30 rep barbell squats for leg work (deadlifts too, but less often than I used to). It takes maybe four or five minutes to tear through a 20 rep set but the gains are definitely worth it.

For everything else, sets of five or just heavy triples is plenty to make gains. You can't go wrong with 5x5 but you should toss in some low rep work every now and then. Seven sets of heavy triples, ten sets of heavy doubles, or twenty sets of heavy singles makes a great workout to maximize strength gains.

Post: #10

You are not gaining muscle doing 20 reps of anything, that is more for endurance. You also have to be careful to make sure your back stays straight through all the reps or you can injure yourself when doing squats or deads like this. Best muscle gain from compounds is the 5 rep range and to go as heavy as possible, you can't go heavy with 20 reps.

Post: #11

So you should do 5 sets of each of your reps every session?

Post: #12

Arnold has suggested to go for 50 reps of each exercise. Also have often read that 8-12 reps is standard. Low rep stuff can be worked in later. I don't see why a beginner should follow a micromanaged routine; just go with that.

Post: #13

Lower body can respond well to up to 30 reps I think. Saying that it can't pack on muscle if you've never tried it is unwise in my opinion. I'm pretty sure I've put on at least two pounds in my legs from just a few weeks of 20 rep squats. The ass and thigh soreness take some getting used to but it's manageable.

As for deadlift, I didn't clarify, but I'm definitely not doing 20 rep deadlifts. Maybe 3 to 8 reps and two sets. That shit wears you out.

The Super Squats program itself is the original mass gainer routine, though it's murder to do for more than six or eight weeks. One set of 20 reps with your current 10 rep max will make a man out of anybody, and the intent is to keep adding weight every workout. You should be completely spent by your last rep, and it should take several minutes to do the set, as the bar is placed on your back and you must pause to breathe between each rep. If you want to go beyond novice status and hit intermediate in the squat (1.5 to 2x bodyweight) there's literally no faster way to get there than the 20 rep program. You can 20 rep squat until you hit bodyweight, then throw on an extra sixty pounds and progress straight from there on the 5/5.

There's this one crazy fucker named Kevin Tolbert who (according to legend or something) --

Quote:As a young man he performed 23 reps with 375 lbs on the bench press and performed 30 reps with 600 lbs in the barbell squat. Kevin knows how to Get Strong.

Kevin Tolbert Files
I don't know if this is true or not, but it is insane.

Really it depends on what you are training for and what you want to do exactly, but 5 reps for everything is a good rule of thumb.

Champion powerlifters are almost never made on a five rep scheme, despite this. You can build enormous strength on 1 to 3 reps and those guys tend to take advantage of that.

Houston, you can make gains on 2 sets of 5 with a deload on the second set (Power the the People), or 5 sets of 5 reps (any generic muscle routine). SS is 3 sets of 5 reps, and plenty have made gains on that. It's easier to stimulate muscle gains on bigger training volume (5/5 is pretty big on volume) but easier to gain strength on mass sets of heavy triples, doubles, and singles.

Post: #14

(04-01-2013 10:26 PM)Sonsowey Wrote:  But afterwards I don't feel deeply sore.
[...]
And does soreness the day after even correlate to how much muscle you're building? For instance, running 5 miles my legs would be sore as hell, but obviously not getting any bigger.

Bingo. Ignore soreness, it means very little.

5x5 is good, but it's not the only way. I've had good results using 6 sets of 3 reps, 5 sets of 10 have been good to me as well. I do a full body routine, so 3x10 wouldn't work for me, except on some isolation moves. It works for some, but it's all a question of what kind of routine you're running.

Nothing is as important as the ball busting effort and perseverance you put into your lifts, every session. No excuses.

Post: #15

Shit, I need to step it up then. I usually do 2 sets of every exercise. I think I'm trying to squeeze to many different routines in an hour and should just focus on a few and get more sets in.

Post: #16

From a Personal Trainer:


Start with 5x5 or 3x5. etc
At the start you should focus on proper form...at higher reps form can start to break down.

After you've learned the exercises well, go ahead and increase volume (number of reps).

Focus on learning to use large muscle groups, maintaining posture and core, slowing the weight as it comes back down.

Look at exrx.net to see proper form for all exercises.

Also: read Ripptoes Starting Strength. Excellent guide for those starting out.

Post: #17

5x5

Post: #18

what should I do to get lean? will 5x5 help?

Post: #19

Not a personal trainer, but I'll throw my hat in for Rippetoe and Stronglifts. I'm using the latter to rebuild after a long injury hiatus. It's quite good for a beginner. Mehdi's point is "you're increasing the weights every workout, so that's incontrovertible proof that you're getting stronger". The theory's not the key though. It's like game. Instead of worrying about the perfect opener, go approach. So instead of worrying about the perfect set#xrep#, pick a system and go for it (with emphasis on proper form). Your commitment to lifting is more important.

bojangles Wrote:what should I do to get lean? will 5x5 help?

Trying to lose fat or muscle? For fat loss, lifting's great. 5x5 will help. To lose muscle, cardio.

Post: #20

(04-02-2013 04:57 AM)bojangles Wrote:  what should I do to get lean? will 5x5 help?

1. Eat less and eat whole, minimally processed foods( veggie, fruit, meat, egg, bean, potato, etc).

2. Weightlifting with large muscles groups (squats, deadlift, pullup, rows, overheadpress, bench)

3. Cardio- long distance walking/hiking, some sprinting or jogging

4. Minimize stress, get enough sleep, have a social life


5x5 works, so does any reasonable program. Find a program you like and stick with it for a while. Focus on those 4 main points and be consistent.

Research shows beginner weight trainers respond equally well to many kinds of programs. That means any kind of consistent exercise is better than nothing. As Nike says, "Just do it"

Post: #21

As a beginner you can easily get overwhelmed. I recommend this program for novices.

Post: #22

(04-02-2013 12:07 AM)Jaylow Wrote:  You are not gaining muscle doing 20 reps of anything, that is more for endurance. You also have to be careful to make sure your back stays straight through all the reps or you can injure yourself when doing squats or deads like this. Best muscle gain from compounds is the 5 rep range and to go as heavy as possible, you can't go heavy with 20 reps.

Phhhhhht. Speak for yourself please.

Post: #23

(04-02-2013 08:19 AM)billbudsocket Wrote:  

(04-02-2013 12:07 AM)Jaylow Wrote:  You are not gaining muscle doing 20 reps of anything, that is more for endurance. You also have to be careful to make sure your back stays straight through all the reps or you can injure yourself when doing squats or deads like this. Best muscle gain from compounds is the 5 rep range and to go as heavy as possible, you can't go heavy with 20 reps.

Phhhhhht. Speak for yourself please.

No, he speaks for everyone. If you're doing 20 reps, you're not going heavy enough to make significant muscle gains. Not even close.

Now, that's fine if you're just maintaining what you have and want to lean down, get some more muscle tone, and build endurance.

Post: #24

(04-02-2013 08:37 AM)Therapsid Wrote:  

(04-02-2013 08:19 AM)billbudsocket Wrote:  

(04-02-2013 12:07 AM)Jaylow Wrote:  You are not gaining muscle doing 20 reps of anything, that is more for endurance. You also have to be careful to make sure your back stays straight through all the reps or you can injure yourself when doing squats or deads like this. Best muscle gain from compounds is the 5 rep range and to go as heavy as possible, you can't go heavy with 20 reps.

Phhhhhht. Speak for yourself please.

No, he speaks for everyone. If you're doing 20 reps, you're not going heavy enough to make significant muscle gains. Not even close.

Now, that's fine if you're just maintaining what you have and want to lean down, get some more muscle tone, and build endurance.

Really? Now that contradicts my own experience. Do some 20 rep squats at 1.x your body weight and tell me that it doesn't build muscle. Looks like the people hating on 20 rep squats are too lazy to actually do them.

Post: #25

I used to be a skinny guy of 70kgs, now I am 81 kgs. I started working out bc I got single a 4-5 years ago, and I also had a backproblem that is now pretty much solved bc of working out. Everyone have their own truth to what works so I will just tell you what I did and you will have to figure out yourself what to do.
I did all my workouts at home using dumbbells and a pullupbar. After some time I bought a super-curl-bar bc the straight ones are hard on your albow-joints.
So I started REALLY light, and I was focusing on form. I ate VERY strict, but did go out every now and then to party. Anyway....the way I have done it is that I do 3 X 8-12 reps. When I hit 12 reps I added 0,5 kgs. I had sick progress!!! The guy that helped me get in shape was this dude: http://scoobysworkshop.com/

He is the real deal. He keeps it simple...AND, he is not sponsored and is trying to sell you "magic overnight sollutions" Scooby is a freakin hero!!!

btw. I dont think 5 x 5 is a good program to start without any experience. You should let your joints and body in general get used to lifting the first 8-12 months with higher reps (max 12) and slowly adding weight. That is my humble opinion.