Post: #51

I'm not sure that's necessarily the case - he could be very good at his job but the job itself just isn't worth that much to the company and there's no room to move into a position that would be worth that much. Granted a good and large enough company will hold onto someone who's good and make room but not everyone is so enlightened and even an enlightened company just might not have the budget to hold on more than a few months.

Post: #52

It depends on how the offer is leaked. If he is ready to make the jump, then being more direct with his current employer isn't a big deal. If he wants to stay there then I would tell a few people at work I got an offer and let the rumors fly to the people who make the decisions.

If he makes it a bidding war, he will piss off people. I did that, on a project, when I was a consultant. I didn't care if I worked with the companies again and wanted to cash out so to speak.

Post: #53

(03-21-2013 12:25 PM)Vicious Wrote:  This is for McKinsey Operations (Lean) so it's going to be all about the case interviews.

Do read Cosentino's Case in Point: Complete Case Interview Preparation.

Post: #54

(03-21-2013 12:25 PM)Vicious Wrote:  This is for McKinsey Operations (Lean) so it's going to be all about the case interviews.

Victor Cheng has the best prep material out there. I'd buy his stuff before Cosentino's. I STILL read Victor Cheng's newsletter. That's how valuable his advice is for business and consulting. I can't say the same for any of the other people doing consulting case prep.

Post: #55

In all honesty, I would do what WestCoast mentioned. Try to get your current employer to pay you more. Time is finite. It is more valuable than money. If your current gig will pay you more, in addition to only have 40 hour work weeks, I see that as being the better situation since you'll have a lot more YOU time. Time for hobbies, friends, family, travel, and poon.

Post: #56

Just in case Vicious gets the offer, the entire thread is a bit like spinning wheels without it, here is how I would handle the conversation. I think people believe i am telling him to walk in there and "demand" money or "a promotion". I'm not. Here is what i mean assuming he has the offer.

Walk in the door.

"Hey **boss** can we chat for a second?" (close the door)

"As you know I have loved working here for XYZ years, I think this company has done a great job at giving me more responsibility over time and wanted to thank you for all of the help. A few weeks ago I received a call from McKinsey for a job that offers similar/higher Pay and similar/higher responsibility. I dont want to burn any bridges as my time here has been wonderful. With that said I have not accepted the offer yet but for the time being i am leaning towards taking it due to xyz reasons. I respect your advice and decisions so i wanted to run this by you before i make any hasty decisions."

After the above is said its up to vicious to read the situation. With this conversation though its doubtful they are going to keep you for 6 months then screw you over because they will end up looking like real dicks and no company wants to royally F up their image.

Post: #57

(03-23-2013 03:56 PM)WestCoast Wrote:  [/i]I respect your advice and decisions so i wanted to run this by you before i make any hasty decisions.

Just popping in here in typical pompous, condescending, contemptuous fashion. WestCoast offers perspective from his experience with a professional job. You don't want to burn bridges. Other posters (YoungMobileGlobal) are speculating without relevant first-hand experience.

Obviously it depends what you want to do.

(03-20-2013 10:20 AM)Vicious Wrote:  The status and money having made partner is certainly appealing but as a red piller I don't hold that in the same regard if there is no opportunity to convert this into poon.

Abstract status is overrated. I haven't seen you specifically comment on the skills and contacts you want to make.

There are different tracks. Obviously most people don't make partner. For one thing, you need to take charge of a money-making line of business, and that opportunity is not always available in your assignment. So many management consultants take jobs with clients. They are on-site most of the time anyway, and that arrangement secures the relationship and gives both sides a good financial deal.

Post: #58

One last note vicious, I have done this before if you want I can email you my reviews and my rankings etc as long as you don't share it with anyone on this board. I will upload everything excluding my company name and you'll know the review is legit.

But a lot of what divorco said is also correct. Eventually you need to take over a revenue generation aspect so you have real legit job security, they won't fire a dick back MD if he is bringing in a ton of money.

Feel free to edit the pitch as you feel like. I actually agree with divorco that last part was probably a bit much, you guys all get the idea here. We're splitting hairs.

You want to create a massive positive momentum loop, "wow you're a VP and you're 25 or you're a senior associate and you're 32" you get the idea. The more perception you create the faster you get to "try" revenue generation. That's the last hurdle, once you can sell a book of biz as a 27 year old MD or something ridiculous, the game is won. Now everyone wants to talk to the young up and comer.

Creating that loop is balls to achieve though, I'll prob get booted at some point but that's the view I've taken. So far so good, I've probably jinxed myself though ha, whatever Thailand if I fail.

I am sure divorco always laughs too when people think MD'a work for a company. At the higher level a MD is literally like a walking business he just needs the platform to sell. It's not like you can raise $10B for an offering without a mega balance sheet.

Post: #59

Keep in mind McKinsey ops is not the same as a normal mckinsey consultant. Its probably a back office position with more shit work but better hours and less travel.

Post: #60

So I armed myself with some research and have had a couple of talks with the recruiter. The offer would be 15k more than what I make now for the first two years. Then when we started talking the expected number of hours she got real vague - in the end after bouncing expectations, performance of people in the position currently and my own data from people I know in the business she pretty much let on that I was expected to work 60h/week, that is 20h/week more than what I do now.

I told them that was a joke and that I wouldn't even bother giving them a personal statement with my CV if that was what was expected and they said that those figures are rigid for this type of position and that's always how McKinsey is doing it (true). She did keep waxing on how the pay gets much better when you're partner (partly true, they only keep a small number of recruits) but chasing pie in the sky in my age felt like a raw deal.

I should probably have kept it cool and gotten the offer in writing but I'm not sure I could have done much with it. My boss is neither a wuss nor dumb, if I tried to chicken race him on a salary hike or me walking then I'd look real dumb if he called my bluff. I actually do like this job. Being in a company with an OP of >15%, travel opportunities and world class training while being real cushy is not something I'd risk unless I had a very attractive alternate lined up.

Still I appreciate all the advise from everyone who weighed in. Realize that my situation is unique and if I had this 5 years ago I would definitely been interested going down this road, 10 years ago I wouldn't even have blinked. I have perspective on what's important these days though, I like to think this forum has contributed a good part to it.

Post: #61

(04-03-2013 03:02 PM)Vicious Wrote:  So I armed myself with some research and have had a couple of talks with the recruiter. The offer would be 15k more than what I make now for the first two years. Then when we started talking the expected number of hours she got real vague - in the end after bouncing expectations, performance of people in the position currently and my own data from people I know in the business she pretty much let on that I was expected to work 60h/week, that is 20h/week more than what I do now.

20 hours MORE of work a week for $15k. That is about $14 bucks an hour. Fug that.

Post: #62

(04-03-2013 03:10 PM)kenny_powers Wrote:  

(04-03-2013 03:02 PM)Vicious Wrote:  So I armed myself with some research and have had a couple of talks with the recruiter. The offer would be 15k more than what I make now for the first two years. Then when we started talking the expected number of hours she got real vague - in the end after bouncing expectations, performance of people in the position currently and my own data from people I know in the business she pretty much let on that I was expected to work 60h/week, that is 20h/week more than what I do now.

20 hours MORE of work a week for $15k. That is about $14 bucks an hour. Fug that.

Plus the additional pay is in a higher tax bracket. No one ever died wishing they'd spent more time in the office...

Post: #63

Vicious out of curiosity did they give you info on your travel numbers. Usually McKinsey gets a good spending stipend per trip depends on your age.

Either way sounds like it wasn't for you. It is what it is.

Post: #64

(04-03-2013 03:10 PM)kenny_powers Wrote:  

(04-03-2013 03:02 PM)Vicious Wrote:  So I armed myself with some research and have had a couple of talks with the recruiter. The offer would be 15k more than what I make now for the first two years. Then when we started talking the expected number of hours she got real vague - in the end after bouncing expectations, performance of people in the position currently and my own data from people I know in the business she pretty much let on that I was expected to work 60h/week, that is 20h/week more than what I do now.

20 hours MORE of work a week for $15k. That is about $14 bucks an hour. Fug that.

Yeah, it's funny when put like that.

I know a lot of "prestigious" young lawyers earning 150K+.

When you look at the hours worked, they are working 2-3 full-time jobs.

The money doesn't seem so much when you look at the hourly wage.

Post: #65

That's one way to look at it. Another way, once again, is in exit options. Yes, you're making $14 an hour for this shitty work now - but in two years, are you going to be able to bounce to an in-house gig making way more for fewer hours?

MikeCF, many of those prestigious lawyers you know putting in 70 hour weeks for the 160k plus bonus Cravath scale are going to be at boutique firms working 45-50 hours a week for $200K+ in three years, or working a 9-5 in-house counsel job or GS-13/14/15 government job for $150K around the same timeframe. These gigs are front-loaded training. It's like killing yourself with high volume squats - down the line, it pays off.

Post: #66

I've found that working a job, you max out to a certain level with certain kinds of work and positions. I'd rather take a foundational job that would require 35hrs of work a week with cushy benefits and then work another 20hrs a week contracting at $XXXX billable days (you'll get 10 billable days a month) doing contract consulting work in varied and interesting things. You don't get stale working with the same stuff in one company with you contracting work and doing that keeps you sharp. Also opens doors to getting into new firms at the ground floor.

This is the best way to do things:
1. Start a company.
2. Be lean for max of 1yr or until you get dat venture capital.
3. Pay yourself fairly quickly what you would of been paid at Google Goldman Sachs anyway.
4. Be a CEO/Founder.
5. Make out like gangbusters on acquisition or even better, IPO. If your startup ultimately fails in the end, then oh well you still made what you would of made at a larger company.

Post: #67

WestCoast:
The norm was 4 travel days a week, which in reality means I'm 'on the job' even far more than 60h/week.

Post: #68

(04-04-2013 06:45 AM)Vicious Wrote:  WestCoast:
The norm was 4 travel days a week, which in reality means I'm 'on the job' even far more than 60h/week.

Yeah, the travel shit is not counted towards work and it really blows. I lose like half my Sunday flying to my client's work site to start work on Monday. I probably travel 10 hours a week when I'm on this client. Thank god, i only go there every other week and i can work from home for the rest.

And to all the people talking about front-loading your career working like ass, i again say you don't need to work at a prestigious firm with shit hours to get started. They are many good companies that have real hours that will get you that gold star on your resume. You think people from google or facebook are working 60+ hour weeks? The facebook COO was bragging about the fact she goes home at 5 everyday. Also, if you have the skills people will hire you, regardless of where you worked. The fact McKinsey scouted Vicious demonstrates this.

Post: #69

(04-04-2013 03:02 AM)malc Wrote:  I've found that working a job, you max out to a certain level with certain kinds of work and positions. I'd rather take a foundational job that would require 35hrs of work a week with cushy benefits and then work another 20hrs a week contracting at $XXXX billable days (you'll get 10 billable days a month) doing contract consulting work in varied and interesting things. You don't get stale working with the same stuff in one company with you contracting work and doing that keeps you sharp. Also opens doors to getting into new firms at the ground floor.

This is the best way to do things:
1. Start a company.
2. Be lean for max of 1yr or until you get dat venture capital.
3. Pay yourself fairly quickly what you would of been paid at Google Goldman Sachs anyway.
4. Be a CEO/Founder.
5. Make out like gangbusters on acquisition or even better, IPO. If your startup ultimately fails in the end, then oh well you still made what you would of made at a larger company.

That's like saying "this is the best way to do things:

1. Be like six foot nine
2. Get with Leoshi, cause yo she's really fine."

Look, I get it. It's great to have ideas and dream big. But the meme that startups have an easy time getting VC funding, even now as VC cash is flying around, is ludicrous. Most people just don't have the creativity and initiative to start a successful entrepreneurial business, and a big chunk of those who do end up getting robbed blind by venture capitalists instead of nurtured by them.

I know this is the RVF, where, like some online Lake Wobegon, we're all 6'2" jacked alphas with dicks like prehensile elephant trunks and devoted soft harems consisting of dime pieces from every continent.

Truth be told, the average denizen here has a much greater shot of being an entrepreneurial success than normal folks. This pervasive message, however, of "just do startup, bro," is equally as asinine to a generation in dire need of economic equity as the corresponding education push that preceded it.

Post: #70

(04-04-2013 10:43 AM)cibo Wrote:  And to all the people talking about front-loading your career working like ass, i again say you don't need to work at a prestigious firm with shit hours to get started. They are many good companies that have real hours that will get you that gold star on your resume. You think people from google or facebook are working 60+ hour weeks? The facebook COO was bragging about the fact she goes home at 5 everyday. Also, if you have the skills people will hire you, regardless of where you worked. The fact McKinsey scouted Vicious demonstrates this.

Don't confuse sufficiency with necessity, or ignore probabilities. Just because Steve McNair and Randy Moss went to the NFL out of what were at the time 1-AA schools doesn't mean it's as easy to do so as playing college ball at Alabama, Michigan, or Texas.

Post: #71

(04-04-2013 11:04 AM)lurker Wrote:  

(04-04-2013 10:43 AM)cibo Wrote:  And to all the people talking about front-loading your career working like ass, i again say you don't need to work at a prestigious firm with shit hours to get started. They are many good companies that have real hours that will get you that gold star on your resume. You think people from google or facebook are working 60+ hour weeks? The facebook COO was bragging about the fact she goes home at 5 everyday. Also, if you have the skills people will hire you, regardless of where you worked. The fact McKinsey scouted Vicious demonstrates this.

Don't confuse sufficiency with necessity, or ignore probabilities. Just because Steve McNair and Randy Moss went to the NFL out of what were at the time 1-AA schools doesn't mean it's as easy to do so as playing college ball at Alabama, Michigan, or Texas.

There's 2 points I make.
First, if you work at Google or another company with great rep but good work life, you will have the same options as a top strategy guy. How is that incorrect?

I know it's true because I lived this and seen what happened to some of my friends after top strategy firms.

The 2nd, I agree with you if you studied something that wasn't in high demand. But, if you're a software engineer or another high demand job, it doesn't fucking matter where you worked. People will hire you. Yeah a good company will make it easier to get a better job and help career wise but its more about your work experience at that point than the places you worked.

Again, I bring up the fact many of the people I worked with were from no name consulting firms. In addition, they were many people there from no name start ups. A good company helps but I believe good work experience matters more. (Though many good companies create good work experiences.)

Post: #72

Great place to build your resume, connections, network.... depending on what you want to do long term. PM me your resume and I can tell you more.

Post: #73

Thanks but this is kind of overplayed. I didn't take their offer. These days I'm giving serious thought about doing a Roosh for SEA.

Post: #74

(06-25-2013 04:44 AM)Vicious Wrote:  Thanks but this is kind of overplayed. I didn't take their offer. These days I'm giving serious thought about doing a Roosh for SEA.

I am considering working for them for maybe 1-2 years to get certain connections. Would you mind connecting/ talking?

Post: #75

(06-26-2013 07:41 AM)xmlenigma Wrote:  

(06-25-2013 04:44 AM)Vicious Wrote:  Thanks but this is kind of overplayed. I didn't take their offer. These days I'm giving serious thought about doing a Roosh for SEA.

I am considering working for them for maybe 1-2 years to get certain connections. Would you mind connecting/ talking?

Go here http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/
Every possible question about strategy consulting has been asked there.