Post: #51

You can conceivably retire on 700k and never touch the principle if you live quite frugally and invest it decently. A few million and you could probably live comfortably in any major city in the world for life.

Post: #52

(03-22-2013 03:29 PM)Ensam Wrote:  I think part of the problem is that there's a very loose definition of what rich means.

You can do very well if you accurately identify a valuable skill set and work hard to obtain it and deliver. No doubt. You can probably accumulate $5-10 million in assets during your lifetime. I consider that to be upper-middle class. That's not real wealth. The interest off of that capital is enough to live a modest lifestyle indefinitely.

Real wealth is accumulating $20+ million. That's when the interest off of your capital is enough to live a lavish lifestyle indefinitely. The people I know in that bracket work very hard but they're willing to ignore laws and ethical conventions that don't suit them.

Accumulating $5-10 million by the time you're on your death bed at age 75 vs accumulating $5-10 million by the time you're in your late 30s are entirely different things.

Post: #53

Very interesting. I can relate to almost everything on the list although, perhaps because it's put so simply, it sort of makes a cliché bell ring.

But it's mostly, and strikingly, spot on. At least for me.

Some members here make an interesting point about people instinctively judging someone's wealth as something 'stolen' or 'easy' or 'undeserved'.

I come across this situation often. "Oh, you have this or that, it must be easy for you".

Ridiculous.

None of the critics would ever dare to trade an inch of their comfort zone. Let alone go through the same ordeals and risk their ass, which for me at least were basic issues that usually played a fundamental role in acquiring wealth. I'm not an ultra millionaire, but let's say I'm close to the exact point where I want to be. My choice thus, as opposed to a 'choice' forced on me.

I agree with Hooligan Harry that the points of the list do deserve separate discussions.

I'll risk a few remarks:

@ 9: I'm not sure about the opposition between DO SOMETHING and BE SOMETHING. For me it's both, or perhaps I didn't get the nuance.

@ 11, about greed and emotions driving markets. And I'd also add a good dosis of manipulation, power struggles, friends helping friends, fake bookkeeping, etc. etc. I love those 'specialists' who try to fully rationalize trends or 'discover' there was some ongoing manipulation.

@ 12, about living below your means. That's especially true, at least for me now. Capital has to be reinvested and I do have to watch my expenses. I have granted myself a "salary" for the time being and I have an old car in the garage (not important for me). I know more people doing it.

@ 15 about entertainment Vs. education. In my experience, thirst for knowledge is absolutely essential and it's arguably sane to sort of focus.

However, ANY knowledge is good and you better keep an open mind. You really never know when some seemingly useless piece of crap information which you have stored somewhere in the back of your mind can save the day.

I closed the best deal of my life because I knew something completely useless, which happened to be related to some bullshit legend from a shithole village. There were 12-13 other people trying to purchase the same asset as I did, at different times, although we were all under pretty much similar conditions. But I managed to close the deal because, upon finding out during our conversation that this guy came from that exact stupid village (?!?!?!) nobody ever heard about, I used the opener of the legend, managed to personally connect with this guy and thus took the coveted prize.

@ 16: about snobs. Doesn't feel true. I can go to slums and to posh gatherings with the same ease and openness. In fact, slums and posh gatherings can be equally interesting (or uninteresting) for opportunities and people. Like-minded (or otherwise useful for business) people can appear in the most bizarre situations.

Post: #54

A couple years back I had an epiphany.

I was at my friends' beach house, a nice little summer shack overlooking the water. He shares half the property with his uncle, who I barely knew, but would see from time to time when I got the chance to go there. But this guy, his uncle, is this soft spoken, articulate , down to earth dude. He sails, has a ton of hobbies, knows about so much and is almost always (at least every time I see him) in a cheery/good mood.

Anyways I'd never been in his house before, but my band and I played on his porch for this 4th of july party we were invited to play at. Anyways, when it was getting to be the time to go, I went inside this guys house where he told us to put our stuff, grabbed my bag, and when I looked up at the room I was in, I froze. This guy must have known something about feng shui or whatever but I was entranced by how it was setup. He had everything in perfect order, every tool like his binoculars had a small plate to rest on, a place, everything was just resting there with so much purpose. I already felt like I could think a hell of a lot more clearly there than in my own house. Even down to small details like the newspaper being square with the table. Man, I don't know what else to say but it was so fucking cool to see how together this place was, I could breathe in that place. This guy must definitely know some secrets. And that's when I started to think "hey, most successful people are pretty organized. Most people who get things done are organized and calm, collected. They don't walk around the house in a stupor looking for their shoes they put their shoes in one place so they know where they are every time. This is one of the aspects of being successful and I've got to start practicing it."

Well I'll keep rambling if I don't stop but again, this dude was ORGANIZED. All of his tools were in place and ready to be put to use again. This dude was successful because he got himself in order. I find it's one of the hardest things to do, get into the habit of putting things back in their place, picking up as you go, making your bed in the morning but it does make a huge difference. I enjoy being in my room now, it's my little sanctuary that I return to, I can think in there, all of my equipment is in it's right place and I try and clean my room up (which isn't hard because I don't let it get so cluttered) every time I wake up, that way it's done and has no chance of building up.

Post: #55

Coming from a low-income inner city area, the assessments he makes about average people are spot-on. Most have the mind-set they're a victim of circumstances. Just goes to show that "inner game" can be applied to more than just increasing success with lizards.

Post: #56

This article is straight up propaganda for wealthy people.

Not only does it contain multiple fallacies, it comes from a point of condescension.

Post: #57

This whole article seems to be like something pulled out of the Reader's Digest. I have a particular issue with this quote -

Quote:4. Average people think the road to riches is paved with formal education. Rich people believe in acquiring specific knowledge.

"Many world-class performers have little formal education, and have amassed their wealth through the acquisition and subsequent sale of specific knowledge," he writes.

"Meanwhile, the masses are convinced that master's degrees and doctorates are the way to wealth, mostly because they are trapped in the linear line of thought that holds them back from higher levels of consciousness...The wealthy aren't interested in the means, only the end."

If this were the case then I know about five hundred highschool dropout rednecks who should be billionaires about now. They're full of "specific knowledge" and they call it "common sense". The problem is that nobody gives a shit about fixing Holland hay balers or car maintenance outside of paying about 15.00/hr for it.
This guy should cite Duck Dynasty or something for "specific knowledge" that is sold, etc.

The "linear line of thought that holds them back from higher levels of consciousness" sounds like something I've also overheard in sessions of heavy toking.

Post: #58

(03-19-2013 09:13 PM)Hooligan Harry Wrote:  

(03-19-2013 10:39 AM)billy Wrote:  I disagree with most of them and think its a load of crap but each to their own.

100 bucks says you are broke.

Not in the slightest, but unless you want to visit me in England and check out my house or see my car collection then it's pretty hard for either of us to prove a point.

Post: #59

(03-24-2013 06:30 PM)billy Wrote:  

(03-19-2013 09:13 PM)Hooligan Harry Wrote:  

(03-19-2013 10:39 AM)billy Wrote:  I disagree with most of them and think its a load of crap but each to their own.

100 bucks says you are broke.

Not in the slightest, but unless you want to visit me in England and check out my house or see my car collection then it's pretty hard for either of us to prove a point.

I'm just thinking out loud here...What if someone created a device that not only allowed a person to read the Web, but that also allowed a person to capture photographs; and what if there were a way to share such photographs?

If someone created such a device, he would no doubt become very rich!

Post: #60

(03-24-2013 06:40 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

(03-24-2013 06:30 PM)billy Wrote:  

(03-19-2013 09:13 PM)Hooligan Harry Wrote:  

(03-19-2013 10:39 AM)billy Wrote:  I disagree with most of them and think its a load of crap but each to their own.

100 bucks says you are broke.

Not in the slightest, but unless you want to visit me in England and check out my house or see my car collection then it's pretty hard for either of us to prove a point.

I'm just thinking out loud here...What if someone created a device that not only allowed a person to read the Web, but that also allowed a person to capture photographs; and what if there were a way to share such photographs?

If someone created such a device, he would no doubt become very rich!

Photos can tell lies.

Post: #61

(03-24-2013 06:49 PM)billy Wrote:  Photos can tell lies.

Now you're just talking shit.

I don't care if guys, "Prove it." It's the Internet. People are presumed liars and fakes.

But the idea that you can't prove something with a photograph is pretty silly.

http://jalopnik.com/5969047/google-exec-...y-possible

Post: #62

(03-24-2013 06:53 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  But the idea that you can't prove something with a photograph is pretty silly.

http://jalopnik.com/5969047/google-exec-...y-possible

Difference is his cars are rare I could do the same but given the lack or rarity of most of my cars if someone wants to argue they would just say I borrowed them from a friend or photoshopped or what ever. If it makes you happy I will do the same.

Post: #63

(03-24-2013 07:01 PM)billy Wrote:  

(03-24-2013 06:53 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  But the idea that you can't prove something with a photograph is pretty silly.

http://jalopnik.com/5969047/google-exec-...y-possible

Difference is his cars are rare I could do the same but given the lack or rarity of most of my cars if someone wants to argue they would just say I borrowed them from a friend or photoshopped or what ever. If it makes you happy I will do the same.

We will also need to see a photo of a $100 bill to verify your story. I would put something like "Feminist sucks" on the bill prior to taking a picture. We need to make sure it is your $100 and not a borrowed one.

Post: #64

(03-24-2013 07:05 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

(03-24-2013 07:01 PM)billy Wrote:  

(03-24-2013 06:53 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  But the idea that you can't prove something with a photograph is pretty silly.

http://jalopnik.com/5969047/google-exec-...y-possible

Difference is his cars are rare I could do the same but given the lack or rarity of most of my cars if someone wants to argue they would just say I borrowed them from a friend or photoshopped or what ever. If it makes you happy I will do the same.

We will also need to see a photo of a $100 bill to verify your story. I would put something like "Feminist sucks" on the bill prior to taking a picture. We need to make sure it is your $100 and not a borrowed one.

$100 dollar bills are pretty rare in this part of England.

Post: #65

(03-24-2013 07:14 PM)billy Wrote:  

(03-24-2013 07:05 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

(03-24-2013 07:01 PM)billy Wrote:  

(03-24-2013 06:53 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  But the idea that you can't prove something with a photograph is pretty silly.

http://jalopnik.com/5969047/google-exec-...y-possible

Difference is his cars are rare I could do the same but given the lack or rarity of most of my cars if someone wants to argue they would just say I borrowed them from a friend or photoshopped or what ever. If it makes you happy I will do the same.

We will also need to see a photo of a $100 bill to verify your story. I would put something like "Feminist sucks" on the bill prior to taking a picture. We need to make sure it is your $100 and not a borrowed one.

$100 dollar bills are pretty rare in this part of England.

More excuses!

Post: #66

^^ a piece of paper who cares all the same.

Post: #67

(03-24-2013 07:18 PM)WestCoast Wrote:  ^^ a piece of paper who cares all the same.

Westcoast, you really taking the $100 proof post seriously?

Post: #68

Owned myself.

Should read properly.

Returning to masturbation station.

Post: #69

(03-24-2013 12:23 PM)Hades Wrote:  This whole article seems to be like something pulled out of the Reader's Digest. I have a particular issue with this quote -

Quote:4. Average people think the road to riches is paved with formal education. Rich people believe in acquiring specific knowledge.

"Many world-class performers have little formal education, and have amassed their wealth through the acquisition and subsequent sale of specific knowledge," he writes.

"Meanwhile, the masses are convinced that master's degrees and doctorates are the way to wealth, mostly because they are trapped in the linear line of thought that holds them back from higher levels of consciousness...The wealthy aren't interested in the means, only the end."

If this were the case then I know about five hundred highschool dropout rednecks who should be billionaires about now. They're full of "specific knowledge" and they call it "common sense". The problem is that nobody gives a shit about fixing Holland hay balers or car maintenance outside of paying about 15.00/hr for it.
This guy should cite Duck Dynasty or something for "specific knowledge" that is sold, etc.

The "linear line of thought that holds them back from higher levels of consciousness" sounds like something I've also overheard in sessions of heavy toking.

Wahahahahahahah

Have a look at your rich lists. You will see that more than half HAVE ZERO EDUCATION. Its almost always only the guys in finance or those who came from money that have degrees of some sort.

You will also find that many people end up making their fortunes in professions that have absolutely nothing to do with their education or field of study. Which again shows that education is in itself highly overrated.

If anything, many people are corrupted by the educational systems in place, which are nothing more than indoctrination camps half the time. Why are the colleges and universities going to pump out tons of fucked up lefties, and not pump out tons of equally impressionable robot like business grads? So it will produce illogical feminists, but logical business grads will it?

Again, this is a simple basic that people cannot relate to because its classic blue pill thinking. Get your degree, climb the corporate ladder, 2.6 kids with a pension plan, retire at 65.

Simple statements so full of truth, overlooked because they seem too simple.

Post: #70

^^ starting to like hooligan Harry more and more look at the facts man, you have to start your own biz in your own equity. The only "secure" I use that term loosely, to making good cash early in life is in Finance/medical/law/ maybe high end consulting where you can flip to a PE gig. (That all assumes you don't accumulate debt in college another governmental hurdle)

Basically, all the haters will come down on finance/law/medical people and say they are "unhappy" okay it's not like the job makes you unhappy and bad with women, that's up to you. Straight up your fault if you are unhappy in one of these gigs. I don't sell dreams. Eventually you must start some sort of business, in the mean time though its certainly not a bad gig. Keep working on possible businesses but why work a shit job when you can make good money in the mean time?

To be honest that list was scarily spot on from the minimal (I am no billionaire) successful contacts I have.

Which is another good point, find a mentor, also in that list.

Post: #71

(03-24-2013 10:57 PM)Hooligan Harry Wrote:  Wahahahahahahah

Have a look at your rich lists. You will see that more than half HAVE ZERO EDUCATION. Its almost always only the guys in finance or those who came from money that have degrees of some sort.

You will also find that many people end up making their fortunes in professions that have absolutely nothing to do with their education or field of study. Which again shows that education is in itself highly overrated.

If anything, many people are corrupted by the educational systems in place, which are nothing more than indoctrination camps half the time. Why are the colleges and universities going to pump out tons of fucked up lefties, and not pump out tons of equally impressionable robot like business grads? So it will produce illogical feminists, but logical business grads will it?

Again, this is a simple basic that people cannot relate to because its classic blue pill thinking. Get your degree, climb the corporate ladder, 2.6 kids with a pension plan, retire at 65.

Simple statements so full of truth, overlooked because they seem too simple.

I like your thinking Harry but I think that the article is too vague to be useful. It substitutes the statement "possess the necessary aggression for business" with a ton of platitudes. There are also no examples or citations.

I will agree that it's good to stay positive and reject the cookie cutter mindset of the 9 to 5 crowd. Arnie didn't get to be a successful businessman and bodybuilder by listening to his old man, working as a night watchman, and going to a liberal arts school. I learned a lot more about the mindset you should adopt from reading his biography than from this list.

Post: #72

It may be vague because no one is ever going to give you an ordered bullet point list to guaranteed success.

They can't translate that to you on a vague pitch.

Most rich people themselves don't see their obsession, bordering on patholigical, if not so, as anything but normal. They don't see that when a potential for breathrough overwhelms their curiosity, that when their concetration is peaked and sees them slave over something for 36 consecutive hours, only to look up and go 'shit, is that the time' as anything outside of how things get done. hen thy research something that will boost their productivity.

It can be something as banal as a guy who has a vending machine empire doesn't sleep for a week as he reads up how how to prevent theives boosting his cash boxes, then gets an arc welder to experiment.

No 9 to 5 office slave stays up for a week to know how to fill in his time sheet or where to place optimal borders on his powerpoint presentation, thus there is no empathy for what is being said.

Outside of their obsessions, the list of the OP, whilst being full of motherhood statements, is a pretty common line of thought amongst rich people.

Post: #73

Quote:1. Average people think MONEY is the root of all evil. Rich people believe POVERTY is the root of all evil.

Greed IS the root of a lot of evil hence why people act outside the realms of accepted morality in order to get what they want, this applies to rich and poor people and I do not think there is any evidence that 'average' people think any different. The ridiculously vague definition of rich and average make the list laughable anyway.

Quote:2. Average people think selfishness is a vice. Rich people think selfishness is a virtue.

There are selfish and altruistic people in all walks of life, being selfish is often a hindrance in business as while selfish people often get the best out of a deal they often get ignored and become pariahs as people cannot be arsed to do business with them. On the flip side plenty of studies have shown that ALL people are selfish and any appearance of altruistic attitude is really selfish in disguise. Either way selfishness in its most basic sense is not inexorably linked to wealth.

Quote:3. Average people have a lottery mentality. Rich people have an action mentality.

Plenty of average people have an action mentality the requirements to move from the 10k minimum wage up to the average 30-40k (sterling) requires an action mentality, I have known plenty of small business people who never made money who were full if action.

Quote:4. Average people think the road to riches is paved with formal education. Rich people believe in acquiring specific knowledge.

Again a pointless generalization, I believe that most average people know that education is a route to specific jobs and the pay scale these jobs offer.

Quote:5. Average people long for the good old days. Rich people dream of the future.

Nostalgia is not the preserve of the 'average' I would bet that all kinds of people dream of the future, the only caveat is that the successful have more of an idea of how their future dreams may come trues.

Quote:6. Average people see money through the eyes of emotion. Rich people think about money logically.

I have watched millionaires rant and rave over a £4.00 overcharge on a bill and waste hours to save a few pounds for the fun of it. If they were purely logical then why bother.

Quote:7. Average people earn money doing things they don't love. Rich people follow their passion.

Shit paying jobs that people do for love include , DJ ing , working with animals, being a bouncer, being a copper, being a musician etc etc etc.
I would argue that doing the things that no one else ants to do creates an opportunity to get higher pay relative to the skills required.

Quote:8. Average people set low expectations so they're never disappointed. Rich people are up for the challenge.

It is obvious that having high expectations makes you more likely to succeed than those with low expectations.

Quote:9. Average people believe you have to DO something to get rich. Rich people believe you have to BE something to get rich.

For the most part you DO have to do something to get rich just being awesome rarely earns you money. You cannot walk into a bank and say I am awesome give me a million dollars, well you could but I doubt they would give you any cash unless you had a gun.

Quote:10. Average people believe you need money to make money. Rich people use other people's money.

I agree my Dad used to say OPM when I asked him how he was going to pay for a project and it is key to many self made millionaires only use your own cash when it is beneficial to do so. Eg skipping out an importer and buying direct for China as often the Chinese do not give credit.

Quote:11. Average people believe the markets are driven by logic and strategy. Rich people know they're driven by emotion and greed.

Fundamentals always catch up in the end

Quote:. Average people live beyond their means. Rich people live below theirs.

can be true at times but by no means an absolute.

Quote:13. Average people teach their children how to survive. Rich people teach their kids to get rich.

Some truth to this.

Quote:14. Average people let money stress them out. Rich people find peace of mind in wealth.



"[The middle class] sees money as a never-ending necessary evil that must be endured as part of life.

Bollocks in every way, the middle class love money more than any other socio economic group, the are the ones who get SUV's on finance to impress the neighbors with how rich they are.

Quote:15. Average people would rather be entertained than educated. Rich people would rather be educated than entertained.

Most people would rather be entertained than educated including plenty of rich people, intelligent people prefer to study the real world rather than a made up one and intelligent people are more likely to be wealthy but that is hardly ground breaking.

Quote:[/16. Average people think rich people are snobs. Rich people just want to surround themselves with like-minded people.

Many people are jealous of those who have more than them and attribute negative character traits to more successful people, that is human nature. It is actually one of the best personality traits of Americans that they show more respect and less jealously for the successful. Some rich people are snobs though, I plenty of people who have no respect for those without money

Quote:17. Average people focus on saving. Rich people focus on earning.

So average people live beyond their means and also scrimp and save ?
The richest people I know are bargain hunters , clearly not with coupons but flying Easyjet etc. I know one millionaire who has his own plane, I know another who flys Easjet. Make of that what you will.

Quote:18. Average people play it safe with money. Rich people know when to take risks.

Risk taking is necessary but that is well known, what people forget is that plenty of risk takesr fail and never get above average. the difference is the analysis of the risk and contingency if the gamble fails. Wealthy people often just analyze the risk better and somtimes are just plain lucky.

Quote:20. Average people never make the connection between money and health. Rich people know money can save your life.

This is too stupid for words, go ask an African about the link between money and health. On the flip side gluttony has been killing the rich since the dark ages.

Quote:21. Average people believe they must choose between a great family and being rich. Rich people know you can have it all.

Average people, who ever they are, do not believe that, its a rationalization they make to avoid feeling bad about their status in life.

Post: #74

(03-25-2013 07:14 AM)billy Wrote:  ...

Billy, your response can be summed up in just a few words:

Not All Average People Are Like That

NAAPALTTM

Post: #75

(03-22-2013 08:07 PM)Locksmith Wrote:  ...
However, ANY knowledge is good and you better keep an open mind. You really never know when some seemingly useless piece of crap information which you have stored somewhere in the back of your mind can save the day.

I closed the best deal of my life because I knew something completely useless, which happened to be related to some bullshit legend from a shithole village. There were 12-13 other people trying to purchase the same asset as I did, at different times, although we were all under pretty much similar conditions. But I managed to close the deal because, upon finding out during our conversation that this guy came from that exact stupid village (?!?!?!) nobody ever heard about, I used the opener of the legend, managed to personally connect with this guy and thus took the coveted prize.
...

Ha, that's funny. Not that's it's ever helped me in the same way, but I also have a very high regard for seemingly trivial information. I consider "Renaissance Man" to be superior to a purely "Specialist Man" (It's good to be a specialist, but you should also have a broad general knowledge).

That's the thing with knowledge and connections. When working at at job X it seems everything you know only gets you small incremental rewards that are very predictable. And that's mostly right when grinding away. But when you are in your own business, or are negotiating deals on your own behalf everything becomes much less linear. As you described, one bit of information really could make all the difference.