Post: #26

(03-17-2013 06:29 PM)j r Wrote:  

(03-17-2013 06:10 PM)MrLemon Wrote:  

(03-17-2013 05:34 PM)j r Wrote:  These guys fucked up. I don't have any pity for them (unless of course they really got set up). If a chick is so drunk that you even have to think twice as to whether what you're doing is wrong, you're best just moving on and finding some other girl.

OH MY GOD, TEENAGE BOYS BEING STUPID! THE HORROR!

LOCK THEM UP! DESTROY THEM! RUIN THEIR LIVES!

Your all caps doesn't impress me. This forum is about what it means to be a man. Part of being a man is taking responsibility for your actions. If you're just going to mindlessly side with men in any and all situations, you're no better than the Amanda Marcotte's and Jessica Valenti's of the world.

So sorry my caps didn't impress you. Sob.

But seriously, I'm not impressed by the hysteria, and I'm not impressed by the false righteousness here.

Millions of teenagers every year get drunk, and yes become unconscious, and yes there are stupid drunken boys who do stupid drunken things. And there are stupid drunken girls who do stupid things. Teenagers have been struggling with sex for a hundred thousand years. Now we just throw them in jail for it.

They "fingered" her? Well so fucking what. They didn't cut her open with knives. They didn't hack her hair off.

Join the 21st century. Modern girls get drunk and screw entire football teams, and brag to their friends about it. They give blow jobs at 13. They go on Facebook and talk about it. There's a lot of bad behavior out there.

Teenagers are stupid about sex. Half of us committed similar stupid acts at one point or another.

Yeah, let's just re-define teenage stupidity as rape, then we can sit around all pompously and talk about how guilty they are. Why stop there? Let's make other common stupid activities into crimes, then we can just put everybody into jail.

Oh wait. But not the girls. Because they are always only victims. Only put the boys in jail.

Post: #27

There is so much wrong here it's hard to know where to start:

1). The boys who were fingering her and jerking off on her while she was unconscious and vomiting. She could have choked to death or died from a fall. Major fail here. This was beyond irresponsible and they're lucky they didn't have attempted murder charges handed to them while dragging her around drunk.

2). They shared this on social media. What a bunch of morons. This, in a way, is worse than the original charge, since it basically advertised a crime had been committed, angered everyone, and got them slapped with charges. What type of fool advertises a crime? Possibly a sociopath.

3). The rape law. "Digital penetration" should not constitute rape. It should mean "assault." This law in and of itself is problematic, because it makes a rape charge too easy too easy to lodge. Assault would have been a more accurate, less politically-motivated, charge.

4). Their asshole friends. If you witness an assault like this and really feel it's wrong, call the cops and/or stop it. As it stands, these "friends" are the lowest of the low -- men who pretended to be on their buddies' sides but turned on them later on when public opinion and the cops started to weigh on them. I'm not saying "stop snitching," but men need to have some integrity. If it was so wrong, these weasels should have halted it and dialed the police THEN, not waited until they were granted "immunity."

5). The feminists who are politicizing this. I keep hearing the phrase "rape culture" again as applied to school sports. It isn't. The inner city has a "rape culture" but feminists don't have the stones to call it that, so they substitute sports. Why aren't indie clubs smeared as bastions of rape culture too, since guys pick up drunk girls there?

6). The girl and her enablers. Who gets that drunk and expects to be treated fairly by high schoolers? When boys do this, they get their heads (or eyebrows) shaved and are told "tough luck." Granted, what happened to this girl went beyond that, but making her a martyr is wrong, especially since if this were a guy, he'd have been charged with public drunkenness....even if he'd gotten beaten up while drunk.

This whole thing became a "bonfire of the vanities"-type media circus that's really dispiriting in every respect. It sucks the way everything is politicized. I'm not against the prison for the two boys because I really feel they put the girl's life in danger, but I do think the definition of "rape" needs to go back to being penetrative sex via penis. In a way, the rape charge trivializes this crime, which could have easily resulted in this girl being brain damaged or dead.

Post: #28

This isn't like the usual BS cases we read about on here. I hate false rape accusations as much as anyone on the forum (I even made a thread on how to avoid that shit) but I'm not gonna think every guy is innocent and place blame on the girl.

There's a video where she's out of there and they're talking shit about her saying that she looks dead. It also shows them dragging her lifeless body around like in that picture. The town it happened in was basically giving a middle finger to the girl and taking the football player's sides from what I remember. Those 2 jocks are fucking idiots and I hope they got whooped in juve. Probably had their asses kissed since birth in that shithole town and this is the first time they got caught up in something.

Post: #29

(03-17-2013 11:26 PM)MrLemon Wrote:  

(03-17-2013 06:29 PM)j r Wrote:  

(03-17-2013 06:10 PM)MrLemon Wrote:  

(03-17-2013 05:34 PM)j r Wrote:  These guys fucked up. I don't have any pity for them (unless of course they really got set up). If a chick is so drunk that you even have to think twice as to whether what you're doing is wrong, you're best just moving on and finding some other girl.

OH MY GOD, TEENAGE BOYS BEING STUPID! THE HORROR!

LOCK THEM UP! DESTROY THEM! RUIN THEIR LIVES!

Your all caps doesn't impress me. This forum is about what it means to be a man. Part of being a man is taking responsibility for your actions. If you're just going to mindlessly side with men in any and all situations, you're no better than the Amanda Marcotte's and Jessica Valenti's of the world.

So sorry my caps didn't impress you. Sob.

But seriously, I'm not impressed by the hysteria, and I'm not impressed by the false righteousness here.

Millions of teenagers every year get drunk, and yes become unconscious, and yes there are stupid drunken boys who do stupid drunken things. And there are stupid drunken girls who do stupid things. Teenagers have been struggling with sex for a hundred thousand years. Now we just throw them in jail for it.

They "fingered" her? Well so fucking what. They didn't cut her open with knives. They didn't hack her hair off.

Join the 21st century. Modern girls get drunk and screw entire football teams, and brag to their friends about it. They give blow jobs at 13. They go on Facebook and talk about it. There's a lot of bad behavior out there.

Teenagers are stupid about sex. Half of us committed similar stupid acts at one point or another.

Yeah, let's just re-define teenage stupidity as rape, then we can sit around all pompously and talk about how guilty they are. Why stop there? Let's make other common stupid activities into crimes, then we can just put everybody into jail.

Oh wait. But not the girls. Because they are always only victims. Only put the boys in jail.

Post: #30

OK guys, I get that the boys here were assholes, but...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there was no jury in this, just one judge.

So, no right to trial by jury?

Post: #31

These guys are dumbasses and I'm happy with the outcome, but as a slight aside I hate how in the US(or west?) it seems like there is no gray area any more with regards to anything. These guys are registered sex offenders in the same group as a 60 yo who rapes 20 eight year olds, or a 17 yo girl who takes nude pics of herself which accidentally get made public. The three instances are vastly different. In terms of harm caused and public threat level.

Same as a person who has 1 beer too many at dinner is in the same group as the chronic alcoholic who regularly drinks a 12 pack and drives home.

Same as the guy who lit a car on fire in New York a few years back with propane and fireworks. Charged with "attempted use of WMD" or something.

Watering down rape to "making a girl feel uncomfortable" or drunk driving as "1 too many beers" or terrorism to "playing with propane balloons" doesn't do anyone any favors.

Post: #32

This story is I think symptomatic of the fact that because young athletes are idealised they are able to get away with stuff like this because they are not used to being questioned and have massive egos.

This girl was only 16. When I was young around 15 I got so drunk once that I was unconscious, and my friends took care of me.

These boys abused her vulnerable state to sexually molest her. If I got too drunk I don't think if there were two gay guys there they would have a right to out their hands up my bum.

In terms of 'rape culture' I feel that often when women are assaulted excuses are made for the attack such as she shouldn't have dressed like that, etc

Post: #33

I agree that it was her fault that she got this drunk but I'm amazed at how not one guy there had the decency to step in, put some clothes on her, put her in bed and let her sleep it off.
Instead they were fingerbanging her in front of their friends, that's not right. There is no defense for that and I think the friends are partly at guilt too. Why didn't they step in?
No matter how drunk, outnumbered and physically weaker I'd be, I'd still do something. You can't just stand around and watch while someone does that.

Imagine someone did this to your beloved daughter? Wouldn't you want to see the guys locked away as well?

Post: #34

(03-18-2013 04:21 AM)little wing Wrote:  I agree that it was her fault that she got this drunk but I'm amazed at how not one guy there had the decency to step in, put some clothes on her, put her in bed and let her sleep it off.
Instead they were fingerbanging her in front of their friends, that's not right. There is no defense for that and I think the friends are partly at guilt too. Why didn't they step in?
No matter how drunk, outnumbered and physically weaker I'd be, I'd still do something. You can't just stand around and watch while someone does that.

Imagine someone did this to your beloved daughter? Wouldn't you want to see the guys locked away as well?

Well, hopefully my daughter wouldn't be a skank who passes out at parties with these types of guys. That said, the guys were clearly in the wrong. They got a year in juve, which seems reasonable.

Post: #35

(03-18-2013 04:32 AM)Lemmo Wrote:  

(03-18-2013 04:21 AM)little wing Wrote:  I agree that it was her fault that she got this drunk but I'm amazed at how not one guy there had the decency to step in, put some clothes on her, put her in bed and let her sleep it off.
Instead they were fingerbanging her in front of their friends, that's not right. There is no defense for that and I think the friends are partly at guilt too. Why didn't they step in?
No matter how drunk, outnumbered and physically weaker I'd be, I'd still do something. You can't just stand around and watch while someone does that.

Imagine someone did this to your beloved daughter? Wouldn't you want to see the guys locked away as well?

Well, hopefully my daughter wouldn't be a skank who passes out at parties with these types of guys. That said, the guys were clearly in the wrong. They got a year in juve, which seems reasonable.

From our point of view, it's easy to call her a skank.
But you don't know her. She could have suffered from depression already. She could have had a fight with her parents, a bad grade, whatever, that made her tip over and want to get wasted. It happens, I know a lot of girls around 16 who get shitfaced when they are having a rough time with friends/family/school.

Post: #36

(03-18-2013 01:02 AM)MrLemon Wrote:  OK guys, I get that the boys here were assholes, but...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there was no jury in this, just one judge.

So, no right to trial by jury?

You can waive your right to a jury trial and have a bench trial. This is not uncommon, especially if you think the jury would be on a which hunt and the judge would give you a fairer shake.

Also not to make light of this situation but was anyone else reminded of this?

Post: #37

(03-18-2013 04:32 AM)Lemmo Wrote:  

(03-18-2013 04:21 AM)little wing Wrote:  I agree that it was her fault that she got this drunk but I'm amazed at how not one guy there had the decency to step in, put some clothes on her, put her in bed and let her sleep it off.
Instead they were fingerbanging her in front of their friends, that's not right. There is no defense for that and I think the friends are partly at guilt too. Why didn't they step in?
No matter how drunk, outnumbered and physically weaker I'd be, I'd still do something. You can't just stand around and watch while someone does that.

Imagine someone did this to your beloved daughter? Wouldn't you want to see the guys locked away as well?

Well, hopefully my daughter wouldn't be a skank who passes out at parties with these types of guys. That said, the guys were clearly in the wrong. They got a year in juve, which seems reasonable.

Getting drunk makes you a 'skank'?

What about if a man gets drunk? Does he not have a right not to be sexually assaulted?

Post: #38

(03-18-2013 03:20 AM)Seadog Wrote:  These guys are dumbasses and I'm happy with the outcome, but as a slight aside I hate how in the US(or west?) it seems like there is no gray area any more with regards to anything. These guys are registered sex offenders in the same group as a 60 yo who rapes 20 eight year olds, or a 17 yo girl who takes nude pics of herself which accidentally get made public. The three instances are vastly different. In terms of harm caused and public threat level.

See my earlier post. In Ohio there is a grey area for juveniles-which they were charged as. They can have their case reviewed and get removed from the sex offenders registry if they show that they've learned from their mistakes and are unlikely to repeat again. They are not being treated like your typical rapists, nor are they getting a slap on the wrist. I think it's appropriate.

Post: #39

(03-18-2013 05:23 AM)Pacesetter20 Wrote:  

(03-18-2013 01:02 AM)MrLemon Wrote:  OK guys, I get that the boys here were assholes, but...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there was no jury in this, just one judge.

So, no right to trial by jury?

You can waive your right to a jury trial and have a bench trial. This is not uncommon, especially if you think the jury would be on a which hunt and the judge would give you a fairer shake.

Also not to make light of this situation but was anyone else reminded of this?

That's like my cousin every weekend when we were in high school. Now she's in an S&M relationship with an 45 year old.

Post: #40

Time for "Can you sign this first?" Game:

Post: #41

(03-18-2013 06:46 AM)Kentucky Wrote:  

(03-18-2013 04:32 AM)Lemmo Wrote:  

(03-18-2013 04:21 AM)little wing Wrote:  I agree that it was her fault that she got this drunk but I'm amazed at how not one guy there had the decency to step in, put some clothes on her, put her in bed and let her sleep it off.
Instead they were fingerbanging her in front of their friends, that's not right. There is no defense for that and I think the friends are partly at guilt too. Why didn't they step in?
No matter how drunk, outnumbered and physically weaker I'd be, I'd still do something. You can't just stand around and watch while someone does that.

Imagine someone did this to your beloved daughter? Wouldn't you want to see the guys locked away as well?

Well, hopefully my daughter wouldn't be a skank who passes out at parties with these types of guys. That said, the guys were clearly in the wrong. They got a year in juve, which seems reasonable.

Getting drunk makes you a 'skank'?

What about if a man gets drunk? Does he not have a right not to be sexually assaulted?

I don't think women should get that drunk. You want to see drunk girls en masse? Visit the UK and see the beauty of our english women.

Post: #42

This brings to mind the scenario that played out in "The Accused," where bar patrons were arrested and put on trial for solicitation for cheering on the rape. It was based in part on a real case, the case of Cheryl Araujo, a woman who was gang-raped at a bar in Massachusetts in 1983 while other patrons watched and cheered. In the actual case, She testified that patrons cheered, but the patrons were not arrested and tried (that was added for the movie). It still raises the issue of the responsibility of bystanders who witness a crime and do nothing. From a previous post, it seems one of the boys who testified tried to warn one of the convicted about what he was doing, and he blew him off. That raises the question of whether or not someone should have done more to stop them, which is why the Ohio attorney general isn't dropping this - he's convening a grand jury to investigate whether more people should be charged. There were plenty of witnesses who were filming and taking pics. Since we're dealing with minors, who knows how far this will go, but I think those that witnessed and basically treated this as entertainment shouldn't be able to hide.

Post: #43

Oh these were the scrubs who were making videos about her?

Can't really defend them after that shit.

Post: #44

Kids do stupid shit, and do even more stupid shit when they're drunk and around fellow drunk teenagers, trying to impress them. The punishment seems fair to me -the girl was publicly violated and humiliated, and will always have a slut stigma in her hometown. Clearly, the perpetrators need to be punished somehow, since this is all public. The guys will get punished, but not so excessively that their lives will be forever ruined because of one stupid night.

Post: #45

Can someone post some background links on this stuff about them dragging her around and making videos of fingering her and all that?

I just came across this story from a different perspective -- the feminist/progressive side -- via my social media

http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013/03/...ubenville/

Thoughts on the media's portrayal?

Post: #46

Their friends are pussies to. These 2 dummies learned that the hard way. They figured everyone would keep their mouth shut if something happened and learned the hard way how fast people will open their mouth when their ass is on the line.

Post: #47

Here's the latest. They've arrested two GIRLS for threatening the victim via social media...

http://news.msn.com/us/2-arrested-for-al...ape-victim

Ohio Attorney General Mike DeWine said the girls arrested Monday posted threatening Facebook and Twitter comments Sunday, the day the players were convicted in Steubenville. DeWine says the girls are being held in juvenile detention on allegations of aggravated menacing after an investigation by state and local authorities. They have not yet been charged.

According to CNN, the girls are both Steubenville residents. Jefferson County Sheriff Fred Abdalla told CNN that one of the girls threatened to beat the victim, and another threatened to kill her.

DeWine says he hopes the arrests end harassment of the alleged victim.

Post: #48

With all the stories of corrupution and now this and the story above coming out this town, they should rename it Stupidville.

Post: #49

http://thoughtcatalog.com/2013/the-steub...-hate-cnn/

This is the dumbest thing written so far about this case. This hamster thinks everybody should hate CNN for "rape-apology" because it did a few minutes on how the lives of the 16 year old boys are ruined. Never did their reporters say that their lives are being unjustly ruined, just that they are going to lead difficult lives from now on, which is objective fact. Judging from this article and the comments to the youtube clip of the CNN reporting (link in the article), CNN should forget journalistic neutrality and just talk about how these scumbags got what they deserved.

Post: #50

Hmn.. she looks pretty much incapacitated in that photo.

If I passed out for whatever reason, and found out later that some guy stuck his finger up me ass when I was out, and that everyone video taped it, I'd be pretty angry.

Another thing- aren't all the people who took photos and video complicit as well? Shouldn't they all be on trial then? If you see someone "getting raped" or whatever the fuck happened, and you video tape instead of doing something about it, aren't you essentially helping to enable? Also, you are making underage porn as well.