Post: #126

In theory, MGTOW is a philosophy that encompasses PUAs/gamers, but as some have pointed out, in practice many who subscribe to the MGTOW label seem to be angry. On the other hand, PUAs/gamers seem to be in it for ego validation. I think these are just misunderstandings between introverts and extroverts.

Extroverts tend to seek more risky and novel situations in order to keep dopamine levels elevated. They also tend to place more value on the way others percieve them. I think this is why the game culture has been such a positive influence in the life of these men. I dont see whats so bad about ego validation and chasing novelty if its a net life benefit. Personally Im an introvert and I dont understand it, but to each his own.

I think the visible MGTOW types tend to be more introverted. Introverts are less dependent on constantly replenishing dopamine and more likely to enjoy intellectual pursuits. For introverted people, social interaction can be exhausting and not enjoyable except in the case of intellectual equals. Because women are generally less intellectually curious, introverts gain most of their pleasure with women in a purely physical way. In past societies, these men would have seen marriage and raising a family as a fulfilling lifetime goal, but due to their inability to compete with the sexual novelty of extroverts and the inability for them to enforce the contract of marriage at the hand of the state, this is no longer a viable option. I think this is the reason a lot of MGTOW types seem angry. A part of their biological life trajectory is missing. For introverts, I think the major aspects of relationships are the physical aspect as well as having a deep sense of meaning. It is extremely difficult and very risky legally to secure the latter in todays society. This instinct has been exploited by many women in todays society, and a lot of MGTOW philosophy should be seen as a warning to others with similar biological inclinations.

I think its easy to say "Well, they need to work on improving themselves to get women instead of being cynical and depressed." Sounds good, but I dont think this would benefit introverts in practice. The process of pushing themselves into social situations to manipulate others is extremely draining for introverts, and the reward for doing so doesnt provide any lasting fulfillment. Instead, intellectual pursuits and hobbies tend to be more fulfilling. That being said, it may be possible to pursue meaningful relationships in more traditional cultures, but that is logistically challenging.

I think the big rift between these two philosophies is just normalcy bias in failing to understand our different personality types. Even though Im an introvert, I enjoy a lot of the writing that xsplat puts out.

Post: #127

I've joined the MGTOW bandwagon whilst I'm in the UK.

As soon as my eyes were opened to the ridiculous hoops I had to jump through to get a mediocre girl in England, the economist in me kicked in. Cost/benefit ratio is totally skewed here.

I've had experience of living in Asia, and I'm definitely not MGTOW there. So I believe it's a rational adaptation to particular environments.

Post: #128

I walk around in the Red Light District so much it is almost my second home neighborhood. It is still fun to be around there and I know the area very well. Not for p4p purposes guys there are actually people living there and schools, too.

Post: #129

The cost/benefit ratio is a big part of my thinking. Not just to women - but to just about every decision I make.

As for MGTOW being angry. I do detect some anger on MGTOW forums - but they mainly seem to be from guys who hate their ex-wives.

For most MGTOW - I am sure they will never have to worry about that.

As for me - I am not angry. I am incredibly chilled out. Also - I don't like using labels - so even though I am pretty MGTOW - it doesn't mean I obsess over it. Or have posters up on my wall proclaiming the laws of MGTOW.

It is a state of mind - like the Buddhist concept of 'Zen'. And as with 'Zen' - the more you try and define it - the less you actually live it.

I also agree there is a big overlap between MGTOW type guys and introverts (not people that get shy - but people who find too much socialising to be the most exhausting thing in the world). But - it would be hard to investigate this area since MGTOW and introversion are poorly defined terms.

Post: #130

A recent article that Captain Capitalism put on his blog talks about the MGTOW/herbivore movement from a Japanese writer:

http://goingyourownway.com/content.php?1...bivore-Men

He has a lot of overlap with the general manosphere sentiments about how marriage and child rearing have become horrible deals for men.

Quote: The Carnivore Man is the symbol of traditional masculine role, i.e. a Japanese man is expected to support his wife and family without complaint even though he feels discontent and unhappy. The Carnivore Man’s social standing is defined by him having wealth and family, even if in pursuit of this makes him miserable.

It also doesn't help that the main criticism that all the articles regarding Herbivore Man in Japan and around the world, come from the grievances of women who – if you read the subtext carefully – want their man to pamper them. The women want their man in their traditional roles as salary men who slaves at work all day and gives all his money to his wife; a life that Herbivore Men refuse to participate.

Post: #131

I think often we succumb to caricatures of one another. The caricature of PUA is someone who is peacocking like Mystery with a boa and eyeliner, a pussy worshipper who's abandoned his interests in solitary pursuit of notch count, a female predator. Of course, we know that's BS. But when we observe men living a different kind of life, sometimes we fall prey in creating those same caricatures for others, perhaps out of ego or needing to defend our worldview versus others. So the caricature of MGTOW is lonely neckbeard, basement-dwelling 40-year old virgin. And that is just as much BS.

When we get past the caricatures, we may actually be more similar than dissimilar. We've ingested the red pill on female behavior. But knowing what one knows, men take different paths. A few interesting articles from the same site:

5 Misconceptions about MGTOW
http://goingyourownway.com/content.php?1...bout-MGTOW

"The key point here is that MGTOWs distinguish between Sexual Market Value (SMV) and Actual Value (AV). To define terms, Actual Value is having traits that make for a good person leading a meaningful life; actual ability, actual traits of good character.....SMV for us are male traits that women find attractive. Now naturally there may be some overlap between the two. But the general sentiment is that today, SMV and AV may be more misaligned than ever. ....MGTOWs separate themselves entirely from the paradigm that a man’s value is related to his ‘success’ with women."

and

Actual Value versus Sexual Market Value
http://goingyourownway.com/content.php?122-Actual-Value

While I disagree with some of the representations of PUA in that article, it does create an important distinction between developing traits that lead to a good life overall and SMV traits.

Post: #132

Roosh has a nice post here:

http://www.rooshv.com/men-are-nothing-mo...dern-woman

I think it reflects a MGTOW mindset - that judging yourself by female approval is ultimately a loser's game.

The comments below are interesting as well...

Post: #133

IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT

MGTOW will now be know as KGTOW (Kings Going Their Own Way).

Why?

Because if you are not king of your castle - you cannot afford to go MGTOW.

MGTOW is a rich man's game - well, not rich exactly. But certainly rich enough to pay his own way when it comes to all bills and rent.

If you need to live with a bitch to pay the rent or split the bills - you are screwed.

You have no real say in how much you 'love' your chick. Because you cannot afford not to love her. This is the real reason behind a lot of people being stuck in unhappy relationships.

I think the reason house prices are rocketing in the west is to force couples to live together. And - with recent changes to the law - after a couple of years of cohabitation - that now counts as common law marriage.

It is marriage slavery by the back door.

If you literally cannot afford to tell the chick in your life to fuck off - you can never be truly MGTOW.

Anyone else feel money and financial independence is an important part of MGTOW - sorry... I mean KGTOW?

Post: #134

The above post came about after a conversation with WD-40.

Props to him!

Post: #135

MGTOW is just another symptom of a decaying culture. This is male hamsterism at its worst.

A quick cursory glance at any MGTOW forum will reveal that most of these people are not strong men forging their own path. It's quite the contrary. The Internet basically allowed all the weak men who lost out in the system our forefathers created to get together and blame society for their failures.

You see, what makes a man is much more complex than we think. He is not only shaped by those around him, but by those who came before him. People who took pride in their nation, their culture and their reputation. It's not only about you and it never was and never will be. You owe your full effort to your PEOPLE. The fact that MGTOW is becoming so popular shows how fucking lazy and selfish we've become, and how much our culture has crumbled.

And as for the comments way back about the term "loser." Men can be losers, because men are supposed to LEAD. If they can't lead, then they work hard to prove they aren't useless. Back in the day, dead weight became exactly that...dead weight. Leeches got offed, and communities became stronger as a result. If you're wasting the gift of life under the guise of "not buying into the system," then you get no respect from me.

If you subscribe to the MGTOW movement and you're one of the exceptions, then I apologize. For the rest, try to imagine when you're on your death bed with only a few breaths left, and you reflect back on such a selfish, wasted life...Just think about that for a second. Contribute to the community. It's not all about you.

Post: #136

MGTOW is red-pill thinking.

The only way it differs from other red-pill schools of thought - is that it questions the idea that chasing pussy is the most important goal in a man's life.

The only people who associate that attitude with "a selfish, wasted life" tend to be women.

Just sayin'...

Cardguy

PS But I am a bit of loser as it happens - so you might be on to something.

Post: #137

(05-17-2014 06:42 PM)cardguy Wrote:  The only way it differs from other red-pill schools of thought - is that it questions the idea that chasing pussy is the most important goal in a man's life.

Even if pussy does happen to be the most important goal in your life, you can still be KGTOW. The caveat is that wherever you decide to go and whatever you decide to do with your life, you're the one behind the wheel.

If you choose to relate to women, you do so from a position of strength and sovereignty. It is not the sovereign who chases but the pussy, and though he may enjoy it to his hearts content, like the Teumessian fox, he is never to be caught by it.

Post: #138

(05-17-2014 05:44 PM)djwaters420 Wrote:  MGTOW is just another symptom of a decaying culture. This is male hamsterism at its worst.

A quick cursory glance at any MGTOW forum will reveal that most of these people are not strong men forging their own path. It's quite the contrary. The Internet basically allowed all the weak men who lost out in the system our forefathers created to get together and blame society for their failures.

You see, what makes a man is much more complex than we think. He is not only shaped by those around him, but by those who came before him. People who took pride in their nation, their culture and their reputation. It's not only about you and it never was and never will be. You owe your full effort to your PEOPLE. The fact that MGTOW is becoming so popular shows how fucking lazy and selfish we've become, and how much our culture has crumbled.

And as for the comments way back about the term "loser." Men can be losers, because men are supposed to LEAD. If they can't lead, then they work hard to prove they aren't useless. Back in the day, dead weight became exactly that...dead weight. Leeches got offed, and communities became stronger as a result. If you're wasting the gift of life under the guise of "not buying into the system," then you get no respect from me.

If you subscribe to the MGTOW movement and you're one of the exceptions, then I apologize. For the rest, try to imagine when you're on your death bed with only a few breaths left, and you reflect back on such a selfish, wasted life...Just think about that for a second. Contribute to the community. It's not all about you.

GMAFB.

I live in a society where the vast majority of things I want to do are illegal, even though they hurt nobody. If I make decent money, I can look forward to paying well over 50% of my income in taxes. My money goes to support leeches that then turn around and demonize me by labeling me with -isms if I don't suck the right politically correct cocks and enthusiastically embrace the social justice movements du jour.

If I do decide to get married, I am then living with a gun to my head for the rest of my life. If I have kids? I can be fucked over at any time at the whim of the courts, even against my wife's will! There is absolutely zero incentive for me to start a family and contribute a well adjusted member or three of the next generation to prop things up a little longer.

I am under no obligation to give a fucking thing back to the community, bud. The community hates me, and grudgingly puts up with me solely because without people like me, it would fall apart. So if all I decide to do is build a pile of cash and chase pussy while contributing to the moral decay of our society, I will go to my deathbed with a clean conscience.

I am absolutely a man going his own way. My way involves building a business to sell people entertainment that feeds their base appetites, while hopefully never fucking a girl older than 23, and spending my free time doing whatever strikes my fancy. My way doesn't involve giving a single, solitary fuck if people don't like it.

Post: #139

What weambulance said.

In the European country where I source my income and pay my taxes, I contribute one and a half times the amount of per capita public spending in income taxes alone. On top of that, there's value added tax, petrol tax, capital gains tax, government pension fund contributions (the maximum amount) for which I will eventually receive a minuscule pension, health care contributions (the maximum amount) for health care that I hardly use, unemployment insurance (I have never been unemployed) and child support payments (15% of net).

So it is not like I am a leech, or a loser, or lazy, or weak. But even if I were, I wouldn't be under any obligation to prove anything to women. Because women don't owe me anything. And that goes both ways.

Post: #140

Run towards the problem and try to set an example. If you're right, the closer you get to the center, the more friends you will find.

Post: #141

(05-17-2014 05:44 PM)djwaters420 Wrote:  You see, what makes a man is much more complex than we think. He is not only shaped by those around him, but by those who came before him. People who took pride in their nation, their culture and their reputation. It's not only about you and it never was and never will be. You owe your full effort to your PEOPLE. The fact that MGTOW is becoming so popular shows how fucking lazy and selfish we've become, and how much our culture has crumbled.

Taking pride in your nation and culture is a concept taken to an extreme by 19th century nationalism that has essentially been prohibited since WW2 ended because the fear in mainstream culture is that anyone who does so will become like the Nazis. I don't think these ideals are bad on their own, but I'm not sure how you expect any man, regardless of how successful he is, to accomplish this in most of the developed countries in the world in 2014. Even if you're very successful and in good physical health, the women around you aren't held to the same standard and will be given a legal advantage over you that cannot be bypassed.

Anyone who buys into the bullshit that men need to be chasing women or committed to a woman for their entire lives needs to research the concept of the Feminine Imperative that is outlined on the Rational Male blog: http://therationalmale.com/category/the-...mperative/

Why do you think in a place like the U.S. guys who are virgins past the age of 20 basically get relegated to the same social status as child molesters? Because it's obvious that they haven't been devoting a significant amount of time and resources to pleasing women, which is the most grave offense.

Post: #142

(05-17-2014 05:44 PM)djwaters420 Wrote:  MGTOW is just another symptom of a decaying culture. This is male hamsterism at its worst.

A quick cursory glance at any MGTOW forum will reveal that most of these people are not strong men forging their own path. It's quite the contrary. The Internet basically allowed all the weak men who lost out in the system our forefathers created to get together and blame society for their failures.

You see, what makes a man is much more complex than we think. He is not only shaped by those around him, but by those who came before him. People who took pride in their nation, their culture and their reputation. It's not only about you and it never was and never will be. You owe your full effort to your PEOPLE. The fact that MGTOW is becoming so popular shows how fucking lazy and selfish we've become, and how much our culture has crumbled.

And as for the comments way back about the term "loser." Men can be losers, because men are supposed to LEAD. If they can't lead, then they work hard to prove they aren't useless. Back in the day, dead weight became exactly that...dead weight. Leeches got offed, and communities became stronger as a result. If you're wasting the gift of life under the guise of "not buying into the system," then you get no respect from me.

If you subscribe to the MGTOW movement and you're one of the exceptions, then I apologize. For the rest, try to imagine when you're on your death bed with only a few breaths left, and you reflect back on such a selfish, wasted life...Just think about that for a second. Contribute to the community. It's not all about you.

Fuck my community. My deceased father would agree with my sentiment from his grave since everything he predicted came to pass.

"For a man who wants to make a profession of good in all regards must come to ruin among so many who are not good." - Niccolo Machiavelli

Post: #143

But community doesn't mean your government. It means the people around you. The people you care about.

I realize there are some MGTOW guys who use this philosophy to better themselves and their loved ones. But for the "Ghost" sub-section, or the rest of the anti-social types that flock to this movement, they are wastes of oxygen. Using the example someone used before...it's okay to like porn and anime, but to resign yourself to a life of porn and anime shouldn't be viewed as "going your own way." Let's be real, these guys were going that way long before they found MGTOW. The difference is they have a community to encourage this behavior now. Before it was a vice, now it's a "quest."

Post: #144

"waste of oxygen", that´s not mgtow it´s mgf, men go fascist. I thing yeah MGTOW is very red pill and it´s a low risk version of it mostly. Total selfishness. Is there something more great?

Post: #145

Cost-benefit doesn't work for me in America.. even if I gamed the shit outta dem bitches, the marriage, kids and exposure to child support which would result in my success would lead to failure.

There's not enough salt in the world to make that pretzel logic palatable.

Post: #146

Same with me. This winter I am going to check out the mythtic poosy paradies. But as a kind of part time mgtow I have a bad conscience to spend so much money for traveling that is for women. But the call of nature is so strong. I think that I think that I still love them whores to much.

Post: #147

"There's not enough salt in the world to make that pretzel logic palatable."

THAT IS GREAT WRITING THERE!

Post: #148

(05-18-2014 04:20 AM)iknowexactly Wrote:  Cost-benefit doesn't work for me in America.. even if I gamed the shit outta dem bitches, the marriage, kids and exposure to child support which would result in my success would lead to failure.

I agree. Trying to find a marriage quality woman in the West is like thinking you will be the guy to win at three card monte because you are not like the other chumps.

Post: #149

(05-18-2014 10:24 AM)WD-40 Wrote:  I agree. Trying to find a marriage quality woman in the West is like thinking you will be the guy to win at three card monte because you are not like the other chumps.

Stop looking for a wife: you won’t find one (2010)

Quote:As I look back on my life, I realize that one of the biggest misconceptions I had when I was younger was that wives actually existed. Like many men, I learned the hard way that they do not, and now I realize I’d simply been scammed. Far too many men have fallen victim to this con, and it’s about time that we put some effort into eliminating it.

First, what is a wife? As many of us see it, a wife is a female who partners with a man and provides intimacy and support, and who contributes to the well-being of a family. Above all else, she is devoted to the family, and will sacrifice time, effort and even desire to hold it together. In short, she is the complementary image of a husband, with whom she cooperates in furtherance of this family ideal.

Such a naïve, flawed view of contemporary women came from a general lack of understanding about what they are, and ultimately from a projection of our own masculine attitudes about what is good and desirable in this world.

Post: #150

@ DJWater420 I knew what you meant.