Post: #151

I first heard about TFL a couple of months ago.

Sandman has a great overview of the subject above.

I am a big fan of Sandman - he is the best video blogger on MGTOW issues in the manosphere.

It is important that people don't confuse TFL with MGTOW. They are very different things. One is a positive mindset and one is a paranoid negative one.

Still - I have some sympathy for TFL. I feel they are people who are slowly devloping a MGTOW mindset but haven't gone the whole way.

But the reason I have respect for TFL is because women hate them so much. There is nothing women hate more than guys who cannot get laid. And as soon as guys identify themselves as such - women want to see them rounded up and thrown in prison. In case they go George Sodini and start shooting women up.

As such - I don't want to jump on board by attacking these guys (even though that is my instinct) since it means playing into the hands of women who see guys who cannot get laid as untermenschen.

An important part of MGTOW for me is removing the power from women to define which guys are acceptable and which guys are creepy.

I stopped playing by those rules a long time ago...

Post: #152

(05-18-2014 12:42 PM)cardguy Wrote:  It is important that people don't confuse TFL with MGTOW. They are very different things. One is a positive mindset and one is a paranoid negative one.

I think they are the same thing actually, it is mostly a question of the adherent's native SMP rank.

IMO, the TFL are genuine omegas and the MGTOW comprises all of the other men who have been disenfranchised by prevailing SMP conditions, all the way up to upper betas and beyond - including men who in the past never would have had problems with attracting and keeping women. The upper ranges of the MGTOW spectrum then gradually shade off into KGTOW/sigma territory.

Post: #153

MGTOW are kinda' chilled out about things.

TFL seem angry.

That is an important difference for me.

Post: #154

Roosh mentioned in his recent DC thread how some guys might become MGTOW without knowing the term or being aware of it. I guess that would have described me in some ways, before I was made aware, but I'm now trying to pull myself out of it.

Post: #155

I'm not saying there are no fundamental differences between a TFL and a KGTOW, all I am arguing is that they are opposing extremes on the same continuum. A TFL lives in a black iron prison built out of the powder kegs of his own emotions: narcissistic rage, frustration, oppression, loneliness, and impotence. Whereas a KGTOW is emotionally balanced, fundamentally a sane and whole person who may not happen to be very attractive to most women, but he has male agency. And he has apatheia - not the dark apathy of the TFL that burns under the surface like a cauldron of boiling tar, but the serenity of the Stoic, free and bright and clear like dawn on the mountain.

Post: #156

I would agree with that more or less. I have so much more inner peace in my life now.

Post: #157

I am not attractive to women - as is true of 99% of guys.

So at first I was interested in PUA type skillz.

But then I realised that actually being attractive to women wasn't that important to me. Since I wasn't buying what they were selling in any case. Apart from my interaction with hookers of course.

So - it is a useful thing to remember that MGTOW guys tend to be in the lower end of the spectrum when it comes to attracting women.

But - it is strange. Even if I did become super attractive to women - I would never want to hook up with one.

A few bangs a week - and I would be done with her. I have better shit to deal with than having a woman trying to map out my weekend for me.

Post: #158

I am still interested in PUA type skillz and, given suitable candidates, can see myself re-engaging with women at some point in the future. But I certainly won't be casting my pearls before swine or wasting inordinate amounts of my precious time only to scrape the bottom of the SMP barrel.

And if there isn't anybody, there isn't anybody. I'm cool with that. Maybe I have just not met the right kind of women yet, but when weighing the value of their companionship against their demands, difficulties and drama, I've found them to be a draw at best. So I don't think it's true that I would be worse off for it if I were remain solitary.

Post: #159

When discussing the MGTOW phenomenon, one should think holistically and see the whole picture.

Here's what Bryce wrote a few months ago:

Quote:The modern man is an irony. As developed before, he works in order that women may work, negating the value of his work to himself and his society. If he should like to pass over the allure of a narcissistic lifestyle wherein he treats the accumulation of material possessions as an end of living and concern himself instead with the work of civilization, i.e. starting a family and raising children ready to take their own place in society, he has everything in the world working against him. Though I intend no romanticism, a man who should like to be a provider to a loving wife and family has virtually every force conspiring against him. At the age which he should like to begin being a man, all other women his age who he should like to woo are distracted and occupied by education, Facebook, a career, and predatory socio-sexual aristocrats who have no qualms with using women for sex and nothing more. One might try and enjoin this man to partake of the pleasures of his age, and maybe he shall give in, since otherwise the rewards of his labor shall be a lonely 20′s where he feels crushed by his inability to attract a wife interested in the vision of a family. And when attention is finally given to him, his wife might concede to having a second child if she doesn’t divorce him or somehow ruin the marriage.

Such a situation is almost a perfect contradiction to the plight of the man growing up earlier than 50 years ago.

Post: #160

Not exactly MGTOW. But I couldn't think where else to share this.

Lovely quote from the actor, Matt LeBlanc.

Really sums up my life as well.

‘I love to do nothing. But it’s a very busy nothing.’

Post: #161

(03-15-2014 12:14 AM)thoughtgypsy Wrote:  For introverted people, social interaction can be exhausting and not enjoyable except in the case of intellectual equals. Because women are generally less intellectually curious, introverts gain most of their pleasure with women in a purely physical way. In past societies, these men would have seen marriage and raising a family as a fulfilling lifetime goal, but due to their inability to compete with the sexual novelty of extroverts and the inability for them to enforce the contract of marriage at the hand of the state, this is no longer a viable option. I think this is the reason a lot of MGTOW types seem angry. A part of their biological life trajectory is missing. For introverts, I think the major aspects of relationships are the physical aspect as well as having a deep sense of meaning. It is extremely difficult and very risky legally to secure the latter in todays society. This instinct has been exploited by many women in todays society, and a lot of MGTOW philosophy should be seen as a warning to others with similar biological inclinations.

I think its easy to say "Well, they need to work on improving themselves to get women instead of being cynical and depressed." Sounds good, but I dont think this would benefit introverts in practice. The process of pushing themselves into social situations to manipulate others is extremely draining for introverts, and the reward for doing so doesnt provide any lasting fulfillment. Instead, intellectual pursuits and hobbies tend to be more fulfilling.

I missed out on this post the first time, but I think it's very insightful and explains my personal situation very well. I don't give a flying fuck about getting girls to impress other dudes, and most girls will start to drive me nuts as soon as I have a bit of a history with them and see how retarded they act. This is probably why I keep advising other guys on the forum they're not going to get anything out of the more serious commitments with women other than sex.

If you don't enjoy running your mouth constantly and you're above a certain IQ threshold, you're probably not going to get any enjoyment out of women other than fucking them. Sad, but true.

Post: #162

Another thing is that as I slowly but steadily advance further up the greasy pole of my corporate career, my workload has become increasingly demanding and I appreciate the value of my free time much more than I did in my misspent 20s.

These days I want to make my personal time count, and either spend it with activities which are genuinely relaxing and recreational, or with activities which are conducive to my self-improvement and which redound to my lasting, long-term benefit. So while I am generally interested in woman, I can't rationally see how to make skirt-chasing work for me in any of those ways.

Post: #163

There is a lovely MGTOW message in this story:

Post: #164

I think game should never be the height of measuring success and happiness. You command more power from women when you're genuinely less affected by them. Practice yields benefits, but the right mind frame and self satisfaction provides happiness that last with an edge.

You can land the worlds hottest woman, but you'll never mentally master the game of life until you stop seeing them as the fairer sex, simply the one that you're attracted to. If women actually held dominance in appearance, then the ugliest woman would still be more attractive than the most handsome man(we would all lack value).

Post: #165

(03-03-2013 10:18 PM)Vitriol Wrote:  This is from that article cardguy posted above:

Quote:Fukasawa contends that while some grass-eating men may be gay, many are not. Nor are they metrosexuals. Rather, their behavior reflects a rejection of both the traditional Japanese definition of masculinity and what she calls the West's "commercialization" of relationships, under which men needed to be macho and purchase products to win a woman's affection. Some Western concepts, like going to dinner parties as a couple, never fit easily into Japanese culture, she says. Others never even made it into the language—the term "ladies first," for instance, is usually said in English in Japan. During Japan's bubble economy, "Japanese people had to live according to both Western standards and Japanese standards," says Fukasawa. "That trend has run its course."

Funny how Japanese men are instinctively rebelling against the dysfunctional "commercial relationships" that come from Western culture where men are expected to be financial slaves and constantly buy shit for women.

I don't understand why American men who realize there's something wrong with that kind of arrangement are such an anomaly. There must be an even higher degree of social conditioning and control going on here than most people realize.

Further to the status women have traditionally enjoyed in the West, American women seem to enjoy further privilege.

I think this is because of the US' frontier history. The frontiers attracted adventurers, explorers and of course vagabonds. This of course attracted men from the East.

The resultant gender imbalance attracted two types of woman. The landowner's wife who was often treated like a European aristocrat by her rich husband and the single men. The second is the saloon bar woman, whose market value was regulated by the madam.

Meanwhile as Chinese coolies crossed the Pacific to work the railroads, the sold their wives' sexual wares to help make things meet.

Post: #166

Bumping this thread cause I just came across an article that featured a 18 year old guy who identifies as a MGTOW:

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-...s-10480411

The kid talks about being paranoid of being falsely accused of rape. He also states:

“I’m not particularly social and do not go out often,” David said.

“Most of my friends are on line. I just speak to them in my room where it is safe and nothing can happen.”

I have to admit while I find aspects of the MGTOW ideology to be attractive but the actual end result of it seems to produce guys like the one in this article: passive and cut off from their masculinity.

Post: #167

I was going to say that MGTOW might be good for guys with unusually bad disadvantages - such as having no arms or legs - but then I remembered reading about such a guy having a wife and kids.

In some ways, overcoming disadvantages is what life's all about. Nobody's surprised when the model guy gets a plain Jane - in fact, he's punching below his weight. But when no-arms no-legs guy does it, it's inspiring.

Granted, no-arms no-legs guy probably went about it in a smart way. Most likely, he developed verbal social skills strong enough to overcome his lack of arms and legs. Pretty sure he didn't bother with club game.

Post: #168

(11-23-2015 12:45 AM)Wutang Wrote:  Bumping this thread cause I just came across an article that featured a 18 year old guy who identifies as a MGTOW:

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-...s-10480411

The kid talks about being paranoid of being falsely accused of rape. He also states:

“I’m not particularly social and do not go out often,” David said.

“Most of my friends are on line. I just speak to them in my room where it is safe and nothing can happen.”

I have to admit while I find aspects of the MGTOW ideology to be attractive but the actual end result of it seems to produce guys like the one in this article: passive and cut off from their masculinity.

MGTOW at this point is basically synonymous with being incel. It's men who don't want to fail, so they decline to participate in life.

Post: #169

I personally have no bad experience with MGTOW. One of my college friend is a great guy. Made Captain in the army, got deployed in Afgha, lost a whole of his squad in mortar ambush. He has just become the stoic type of men that doesn't blink in the line of fire, but due to that he can't figure his way out with women and couldn't be bothered.

Spent most of his time training, eating right and studying history. Women doesn't feature in his life, but he has been a great asset to other men.

Frankly in USA not sure game is worth it. Too much effort for little result unless you have really good logistics and are in a city with lots of talent. My mentor in Boston has 10x my game but pulls the same quality as I do here in Paris, simply due to the fact that there are fewer hot girls there.

Most men will not make it far enough in game, so if they choose to divert their energy elsewhere more productive, why not?

I guess just like with every movement, there's the cream of the crop with MGTOW too. If the movement results in men channeling their sexual frustration into productivity and helping others, I see no harm in that. Whether or not the men in question are happy I won't pretend to know.

Post: #170

Quote:Frankly in USA not sure game is worth it. Too much effort for little result unless you have really good logistics and are in a city with lots of talent. My mentor in Boston has 10x my game but pulls the same quality as I do here in Paris, simply due to the fact that there are fewer hot girls there.

Most men will not make it far enough in game, so if they choose to divert their energy elsewhere more productive, why not?

I've been meaning to make a post along the lines that I think some here are being too hard on MGTOW. The fact have to face eventually is that as you get older there are diminishing returns.

Post: #171

Which one of you guys is this?

Post: #172

(09-02-2016 07:33 AM)Cr33pin Wrote:  Which one of you guys is this?

Oh the irony.

Post: #173

If you are a MGTOW and are constantly improving yourself and growing as a person then I think its a good ideology to follow, but if you are the same person as you were 5 or 10 years ago, then its time to re-evaluate your thoughts and views.
Women should not be your top most priority in life and neither should they be lacking from your life. They are only a complement to the high value person you already are.

Post: #174

MGTOW = A man who has checked out from chasing women in his local dating environment.

In the US, I'm borderline MGTOW now. Not completely but 90% the way there.

Based on Roosh's recent Personal Q+A video, I believe he is too. He said something along the lines of: I don't have sex in America anymore unless I super filter chicks AND cover my ass every way possible with cameras, evidence recording, etc. It's simply too risky.

For me, that's what it's all about now: cost and risk.

The cultural and legal environment in the US is beyond absurd. I've written about before how I have had to engage in Defensive Dating constantly for some basic peace of mind in the past.

Lately however, I just rather not bother with women at all unless I'm dealing with a true top 5--10% type of girl. I'm talking the type of girl that I could at least live with to some degree if I accidentally knocked her up: Feminine, can cook, a good person, very attractive, mid-20's or younger. In America though, these women are very rare.

In the past year, I've turned down more and more easy bangs because the risk was simply too high in my mind. I even walked out on a bitch at 6am who wanted to bang because the thought of knocking her up and how it would negatively affect my life was both terrifying and repulsive; to lose agency over myself and get financially raped by her and the courts for 20 years. For what? A goddamn nut with a decent looking slut? Fuck that.

That or I rather stick to relative super-low risk for accident kids chicks: 40+ liberal moms who already got some suckers money and the thought of having another kid triggers them since they are so close to having their freedom again. But then, I'm having to bang old pussy and I'm in my late 20's/early 30's. That's all kinds of wrong and I can't help but feel I'm wasting my time and should be focusing on young 20-something girls.

The risks in America:

Bang a bitch?

Better not give her a reason to get pissed at you or have fun with your false accusation. I will intentionally beta backslide on certain chicks (one's with the slightest hint of vindictive attitudes in particular) just to mitigate blowback.

Knock a bitch up?

She can do an abortion extortion against you OR just keep the kid and use you as a welfare plan for 20 years. In many states, child support has no capped limits.

Today, I actively avoid certain states for banging/living purposes because of how screwed up their child support laws are. Even if you stick to reasonable states that have low capped child support like Texas and Nevada, you pretty much can never leave that state unless you want to risk that the woman will go "forum-shopping" (i.e. moving to a state where she rape you on child support).

Marry one?

Only worth it to lock down a chick from possibly forum-shopping and even then, it's not a necessity; more of an added layer or protection if anything. Given the additional cost (potential alimony, massive unfair property division, etc), it's probably not worth it even with a solid pre/post-nup.

And all of this risk for what?

To battle uphill against a bunch of white knight autistic desperate men, devoting significant time and energy, to maybe get some pussy from a 6 who barely has any feminine charm, can't cook, thinks having kids at 35 is perfectly fine, isn't generally very pleasant to be around, and world market wise, is crap across the board compared to a non-American women? No thanks. I'm taking my ball and going the fuck home.

Honestly, if given all the aforementioned: I almost question someone's mental health if they are not borderline MGTOW in the US by this point.

Post: #175

Who was it that said it best? Make money in the 1st and fukk in the 3rd? Genius.