Post: #1

Long article, but well worth reading: article

Bottom line is that so-called "non-profit" hospitals are actually incredibly profitable, and that despite protests to the contrary, there is no free market in healthcare. There is little to no relationship between what a service, procedure, or medical supply costs to the hospital and the price they charge from a master document called a "chargemaster."

I can only assume that because too many interests are involved i.e. get paid as a result of this system, there is no incentive to pay. Truly this is a national scandal.

Post: #2

The healthcare system is probably the best example of the systemic problem that is at the root of the destruction of the U.S. economy and society. Essentially, nothing in this country is designed to operate efficiently, rather, every system is designed to allow connected parties to siphon off as much money as possible along the way.

Our system is designed to enrich middlemen at the expense of the taxpayer and the consumer. This rule applies to literally every facet of our economy and society.

Healthcare
Defense
Education
Development
Finance
etc...

We have evolved this bastardized form of capitalism that is all about using the power of government to secure lucrative contracts or to otherwise protect business interests. The end result is that taxpayers and consumers get fucked while the connected parties who take advantage of this system become wealthier and wealthier. It is literally a wealth transfer scheme from the working and middle class to the rich and powerful.

This is why it pains me to see people from the right saying that government is the problem, and people from the left saying that big business is the problem and going at each others' throats. Because they are both right. They are just looking at two sides of the same coin. The problem is the merger of government and big business, which is what we have now. The unholy union of the two produces effects far worse than what either could achieve on its own. The power of government, which is supposed to act as check on the insatiable appetite of big business, is instead captured and used to feed it. So citizens end up not only with the boot of government on their neck, but with the hand of big business up their ass. Government has been captured and essentially acts as the enforcer for business interests, ensuring them a steady flow of cash.

The goal of our systems, exemplified by healthcare, is not to provide high quality output, but rather to provide the lowest quality output they can get away with in order to maximize the amount of money that can be siphoned off in the middle.

The U.S. government is the world's foremost mafia organization.

Post: #3

As much as I dislike health tourism and immediate access to health care for immigrants (It's the NATIONAL health service, not the International one!), I must say I think any modern country should provide universal healthcare via taxation/national insurance. Of course, there are problems, as no system is perfect.

Question for Americans. I've watched a few documentaries about this and something always puzzles me. The people so opposed to it are usually the Christian-right. Like this woman:





She claims she's against reform because she believes in "Biblical values". I don't think Jesus would be fond of private healthcare, so what's the reasoning?

Post: #4

Thx for the post. When I get a second with spring break coming up, I'm actually going to compile some sort of data sheet about healthcare overseas while getting the most bang for the least amount of buck. Stay tuned...

Post: #5

I'm shocked you guys are still alive.

Edit: Actually, I'm shocked that you guys have any money. Most of those bills mentioned are far higher than my yearly salary...

Post: #6

Excellent point Scorpion!

It would be interesting to see how healthcare in a free market would operate here. Competition to offer high quality at an affordable price creates its own market. But here comes the federal government trying to make one size fit all healthcare and empower bureaucrats to rule by fiat while eliminating competition so that politically connected businessmen get rich and quality be damned.

Why let your doctor decide what you need when some asshole in Washington D.C. can just come up with an approved list? That way nobody has to ever think again and we'll have Utopia in medical care! Except if you're grandma is 95, she's lived long enough, she can just have some painkillers and die.

Post: #7

Scorpion, I'm fairly new here, but you are quickly becoming my favorite poster.

This is why it pains me to see people from the right saying that government is the problem, and people from the left saying that big business is the problem and going at each others' throats. Because they are both right. They are just looking at two sides of the same coin. The problem is the merger of government and big business, which is what we have now. The unholy union of the two produces effects far worse than what either could achieve on its own. The power of government, which is supposed to act as check on the insatiable appetite of big business, is instead captured and used to feed it. So citizens end up not only with the boot of government on their neck, but with the hand of big business up their ass. Government has been captured and essentially acts as the enforcer for business interests, ensuring them a steady flow of cash.

This is actually the original, true definition of the term FASCISM. Not the commonly used term for Authoritarian "right wingers," Nazi's and brown shirts as it's used nowadays.

Corporatism.

We don't have a "free market." We have a "Free for all" market, where the Big Business-Government complex literally enjoys carte blanche in exploiting, poisoning and looting we the sheeple for their profit.

Post: #8

(02-23-2013 01:09 PM)scorpion Wrote:  The healthcare system is probably the best example of the systemic problem that is at the root of the destruction of the U.S. economy and society. Essentially, nothing in this country is designed to operate efficiently, rather, every system is designed to allow connected parties to siphon off as much money as possible along the way.

Our system is designed to enrich middlemen at the expense of the taxpayer and the consumer. This rule applies to literally every facet of our economy and society.

Healthcare
Defense
Education
Development
Finance
etc...

We have evolved this bastardized form of capitalism that is all about using the power of government to secure lucrative contracts or to otherwise protect business interests. The end result is that taxpayers and consumers get fucked while the connected parties who take advantage of this system become wealthier and wealthier. It is literally a wealth transfer scheme from the working and middle class to the rich and powerful.

This is why it pains me to see people from the right saying that government is the problem, and people from the left saying that big business is the problem and going at each others' throats. Because they are both right. They are just looking at two sides of the same coin. The problem is the merger of government and big business, which is what we have now. The unholy union of the two produces effects far worse than what either could achieve on its own. The power of government, which is supposed to act as check on the insatiable appetite of big business, is instead captured and used to feed it. So citizens end up not only with the boot of government on their neck, but with the hand of big business up their ass. Government has been captured and essentially acts as the enforcer for business interests, ensuring them a steady flow of cash.

The goal of our systems, exemplified by healthcare, is not to provide high quality output, but rather to provide the lowest quality output they can get away with in order to maximize the amount of money that can be siphoned off in the middle.

The U.S. government is the world's foremost mafia organization.

Bravo

Post: #9

I ended up in the hospital a little over a year ago for kidney stones. I had a provider. All fine and dandy, right? A month later I got a bill for 700 dollars. 700 dollars for some weak painkillers and a scan. Brilliant.

Post: #10

Most disease are man made.

Don't be fat, exercise, and juice. That would end healthcare crisis tomorrow.

Hell, most docs would go broke.

Post: #11

(02-23-2013 05:52 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  Most disease are man made.

Don't be fat, exercise, and juice. That would end healthcare crisis tomorrow.

Hell, most docs would go broke.

I don't agree with this, although overall health would drastically improve. But other than our lifestyle diseases from obesity and smoking, most modern maladies are simply a result of more and more people living to old age, not some man-made cause.

Post: #12

(02-23-2013 06:09 PM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  

(02-23-2013 05:52 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  Most disease are man made.

Don't be fat, exercise, and juice. That would end healthcare crisis tomorrow.

Hell, most docs would go broke.

I don't agree with this, although overall health would drastically improve. But other than our lifestyle diseases from obesity and smoking, most modern maladies are simply a result of more and more people living to old age, not some man-made cause.

What are 10 most prescribed drugs?

What do those drugs treat?

Healthcare is supply and demand. If 4 of 10 sick people aren't sick anymore, you have fewer patients and less demand.

Post: #13

(02-23-2013 06:09 PM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  

(02-23-2013 05:52 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  Most disease are man made.

Don't be fat, exercise, and juice. That would end healthcare crisis tomorrow.

Hell, most docs would go broke.

I don't agree with this, although overall health would drastically improve. But other than our lifestyle diseases from obesity and smoking, most modern maladies are simply a result of more and more people living to old age, not some man-made cause.

More people are getting sick at a younger age though. Way more people have diabetes now then in the 50s and 60s.

I'd argue that the majority of illnesses have been brought on by shit living.

Post: #14

(02-23-2013 05:44 PM)renotime Wrote:  I ended up in the hospital a little over a year ago for kidney stones. I had a provider. All fine and dandy, right? A month later I got a bill for 700 dollars. 700 dollars for some weak painkillers and a scan. Brilliant.

As a Brit, that is just unfathomable to me. That's almost a grand (albeit in dollars)! A grand! Private healthcare is available here, but to have it as the ONLY option is unbelievably cruel IMO.

I echo Scorpion's post, it's a fucking racket. It isn't capitalism.

Post: #15

(02-23-2013 06:16 PM)renotime Wrote:  More people are getting sick at a younger age though. Way more people have diabetes now then in the 50s and 60s.

I'd argue that the majority of illnesses have been brought on by shit living.

For many people depression is related to poor nutrition. Not everyone, obviously, as the "black dog" hits a lot of health people. But nutritional interventions have helped many.

In the U.S. we view healthcare as something a doctor does for us rather than something we do or ourselves.

We are like that about most things. We are a nation of sheep who do as we are told by people in authority.

Post: #16

(02-23-2013 01:09 PM)scorpion Wrote:  [...]


This is why it pains me to see people from the right saying that government is the problem, and people from the left saying that big business is the problem and going at each others' throats. Because they are both right. They are just looking at two sides of the same coin. The problem is the merger of government and big business, which is what we have now. The unholy union of the two produces effects far worse than what either could achieve on its own. The power of government, which is supposed to act as check on the insatiable appetite of big business, is instead captured and used to feed it. So citizens end up not only with the boot of government on their neck, but with the hand of big business up their ass. Government has been captured and essentially acts as the enforcer for business interests, ensuring them a steady flow of cash.
[...]

"Fascism should rightly be called Corporatism, as it is the
merger of corporate and government power" - Benito Mussolini

though, i must add, that in the USA, our version of fascism is an inverted form of Mussolini's/Hitler's in that it's the corporations that have taken over the gov't.

Post: #17

I've pointed out many a time, IRL, that the USA is the ultimate Fascist state, in terms of what its actual definition is. Of course, I get looked at like a nutcase.

Post: #18

(02-23-2013 07:44 PM)Teedub Wrote:  I've pointed out many a time, IRL, that the USA is the ultimate Fascist state, in terms of what its actual definition is. Of course, I get looked at like a nutcase.

The fact that the US is a somewhat "hidden" Fascist state makes it that much more effective.

Post: #19

Yep. The article is by Steven Brill. One of the last real working journalists left in this land of ours.

I used to enjoy his magazine Brill's Content years back before it was discontinued....

Post: #20

(02-23-2013 12:23 PM)Menace Wrote:  Long article, but well worth reading: article

Bottom line is that so-called "non-profit" hospitals are actually incredibly profitable, and that despite protests to the contrary, there is no free market in healthcare. There is little to no relationship between what a service, procedure, or medical supply costs to the hospital and the price they charge from a master document called a "chargemaster."

I can only assume that because too many interests are involved i.e. get paid as a result of this system, there is no incentive to pay. Truly this is a national scandal.

Thanks so much for this article. I saw this guy on John Stewart the other night and had planned to read it.

The US healthcare system is a scam. I spent less than a day in a hospital emergency room and my bill came out to be $30,000 dollars!

Post: #21

(02-23-2013 01:31 PM)Teedub Wrote:  As much as I dislike health tourism and immediate access to health care for immigrants (It's the NATIONAL health service, not the International one!), I must say I think any modern country should provide universal healthcare via taxation/national insurance. Of course, there are problems, as no system is perfect.

Question for Americans. I've watched a few documentaries about this and something always puzzles me. The people so opposed to it are usually the Christian-right. Like this woman:





She claims she's against reform because she believes in "Biblical values". I don't think Jesus would be fond of private healthcare, so what's the reasoning?

People have used their so called "religious faith" to justify their behaviors since the first days of religious faith. It's a form of rationalization hamster.

Post: #22

(02-23-2013 10:23 PM)porscheguy Wrote:  

(02-23-2013 01:31 PM)Teedub Wrote:  As much as I dislike health tourism and immediate access to health care for immigrants (It's the NATIONAL health service, not the International one!), I must say I think any modern country should provide universal healthcare via taxation/national insurance. Of course, there are problems, as no system is perfect.

Question for Americans. I've watched a few documentaries about this and something always puzzles me. The people so opposed to it are usually the Christian-right. Like this woman:





She claims she's against reform because she believes in "Biblical values". I don't think Jesus would be fond of private healthcare, so what's the reasoning?

People have used their so called "religious faith" to justify their behaviors since the first days of religious faith. It's a form of rationalization hamster.

Intellectual midgets use religion as a shield. The worst offenders in the West follow Jesus. You can challenge a man's (or in this case woman's) political ideas, musical taste, cooking skills, etcetera. However, challenging someone's faith is considered a faux pas. Hence the reason idiots invoke the name of Christ the King whenever they get into a discussion over their heads. There's a reason Marx said that religion is "Opium of the People".

Post: #23

Mussolini would blush at America today. People get distracted by his heavy handed propaganda and militarized spectacles, his bonds with Hitler, etc - but plain and simple the man was all about enriching the suits. He envision a Fashist-Corpocracy in which Business dominated all aspects behind a heavy fits of tyranny and control.

Hell the USA Government does not even hide it:



Two 'bundle and axe' Fasces (the symbol of power and authority of Old Republican Rome) hang in the House of Representatives. The USA proudly hangs it in their house of Government. Evreytime the POTUS gives the State of the Union they are supposed to remind you whom runs the show...

Post: #24

The pharmaceutical industry and the FDA is another fascist collusion.

Post: #25

(02-23-2013 01:09 PM)scorpion Wrote:  This is why it pains me to see people from the right saying that government is the problem, and people from the left saying that big business is the problem and going at each others' throats.

But if the government wasn't large and powerful, big businesses would never be able to enrich itself using government power.

All one needs is to kill government power and rest follows naturally.