Post: #26

(02-17-2013 08:59 AM)Osiris Wrote:  My experience in Guatemala was that the indigenous people were down-trodden and actively oppressed. During the 36 year civil war they were routinely rounded up and massacred by the Guatemalan military. A friend of mine once spent an evening listening to his host father explicitly detail how the indigenous people were actually a different species.

While the government and tourism industry there are quick to show indigenous clothing and talk about their history and how so many different languages are spoken in the country, the reality on the ground is that they're viewed as backwards, uneducated, and unworthy of anything beyond hard labor. That's just in Guatemala though, I don't know about the rest of Latin America.

Thanks for this post. Very interesting.

Post: #27

(02-18-2013 12:20 AM)Titan Wrote:  Just after I read "expat" I knew the answer. These guys are usually dorks who come to Peru, "fall in love" with the culture and marry a random gringo-hunter from the slums. These girls are usually the most racist people in Peruvian society. And it's funny because they are indigenous themselves.

lulz.

So very interesting the human species is.

WIA

Post: #28

(02-17-2013 04:11 AM)houston Wrote:  Oscar de la Hoya is from east LA and first generation American. Why the hell would he consider himself white lol? No white person in America is going to accept him as a white person and would laugh if he started saying he was.

What someone considers themselves and what they actually are genetically are often two different things. Just like you have clearly black people from Brazil or Dominican Republic claiming they aren't black just because they have a drop of something else in them. You can also have Latinos who are white but consider themselves non-whites(and all "white" means to me for the purpose of this discussion is their blood ancestry, not what people "consider" them, white=European ancestry). America is a funny place with regards to race. First off, we have a history of a one drop rule where anyone with even a drop of black blood was considered black. So even people who "passed" for white would still be considered black, even though anywhere else on the planet they would be considered white. This also seems to get applied to other minority groups, such as Latinos. Someone like Rasheeda Jones will be lumped in the same racial category as Whoopi Goldberg, and nobody finds anything peculiar about this. In Brazil they would view that as lunacy. Secondly, white Americans are mostly Nordics, a mix of Anglo, Germanic, French and Scandinavian people. Those were the founding European stock. Mediterranean whites(mainly from Italy) didn't come here in great number till much later. So when Americans think "white" they tend to think Nordic white with light eyes, pale/pinkish skin and often light hair. Of course people from Spain, Greece and Italy are white just like any other people of European ancestry, they are just more likely to have a tan complexion and darker features because they come from warmer parts of the continent, but they are whites just the same and nobody outside the USA considers them otherwise.

So what happens is that people come here from Latin-America who may be of almost completely European ancestry(not mestizos) and they get labeled as "non-white" because they don't speak English as their primary language and because they have darker features and Americans tend to associate "white" with having Nordic features even though that thinking is mostly confined to the bubble of American racial politics. Like it was noted above, "white" is often a cultural term. A few years ago Jessica Alba(who thinks of herself as "non-white") found out with a DNA test that she is almost all European: http://au.ibtimes.com/articles/20091204/...erican.htm . It shouldn't come as any surprise because if you look closely at her face, it's not like she looks anything like some indigenous Bolivian woman.
She's not dramatically different looking racially than Penelope Cruz who is entirely Spanish:


Also, it's hilarious how ignorant she is about race and geography when she asks "does Spain count" as European. Jesus....I guess she was just embarrassed to lose her non-white street cred on national TV:





And getting back to Oscar de la Hoya, yes the guy is white(racially). He's probably close to completely European stock. Put his photo next to two southern European guys like Javier Bardem and Antonio Banderas and you can see they look like the same stock of humanity.

Quote:Yes, I can tell you have no experience with Latin America or Mexicans/Chicanos in America.

On the contrary I have plenty of experience with Latin America/ns and Mexicans/Chicanos. I've grown up with them and around them.

Quote:He's probably somewhere in the middle since he's first generation which explains all his "Mexican pride stuff" and why he waves American flags in Madrid. It's no different than some Irish American guy from Boston who's proud to be both. Lol at you thinking he looks down on Mestizos for that.

I wasn't the one that said he looks down on Mestizos. That was someone else's speculation.

Post: #29

I wasnt talking to you speakeasy, I was talking to Tee Dub.

Post: #30

(02-18-2013 03:22 AM)houston Wrote:  I wasnt talking to you speakeasy, I was talking to Tee Dub.

You're right, for some reason I missed his name in the quote section.

Post: #31

(02-17-2013 06:33 AM)Teedub Wrote:  

(02-17-2013 04:11 AM)houston Wrote:  Oscar de la Hoya is from east LA and first generation American. Why the hell would he consider himself white lol? No white person in America is going to accept him as a white person and would laugh if he started saying he was.

Even though, as Speakeasy said, he IS genetically a white person of Spanish stock, or extremely close? That's just weird predjudice from 'white' Americans then.

It's becoming clear to me, after spending time on the forum with Americans that, in regards to many Latinos, 'white' is more a cultural term. In the same way as what happened to Irish and Italian people, eventually white Latins will be accepted as white I suspect.

I didn't say De La Hoya looked down on mestizos, I meant that he is aware the Spaniards do, so he doesn't want to be seen as one.

.
Yeah, Americans pretty much consider everyone white who looks the part as long as you dont have a Spanish last name. You can have blue eyes, brown hair and pale skin but you wont be white in their eyes if the last name is Spanish.

Post: #32

(02-18-2013 12:20 AM)Titan Wrote:  

(02-15-2013 11:52 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  I was reading the expat chronicles forum, and dude's Peruvian wife hates Colombians cause there are a lot of Indians. (aka Incas and other indigenious peoples)

True? False? Somewhere in the middle?

As an anecdote, one of my law school classmates had it out with her Host Family while she was taking Spanish, because she said something about Indians followed with a little rain dance... lol.

WIA

Just after I read "expat" I knew the answer. These guys are usually dorks who come to Peru, "fall in love" with the culture and marry a random gringo-hunter from the slums. These girls are usually the most racist people in Peruvian society. And it's funny because they are indigenous themselves.

I'd hardly describe Colin as a dork after reading about his experiences in Bogota, how many dorks do you know who would run a whore tour company in Colombia? If I didn't lose my Kindle I'd be buying that guy's e-book asap, looks like a good read.

Post: #33

(02-18-2013 04:36 AM)scotian Wrote:  I'd hardly describe Colin as a dork after reading about his experiences in Bogota, how many dorks do you know who would run a whore tour company in Colombia? If I didn't lose my Kindle I'd be buying that guy's e-book asap, looks like a good read.

Colin? Colin what haha.

(02-18-2013 12:20 AM)Titan Wrote:  ...guys are usually dorks who come to Peru...

There is your answer.

Post: #34

I approached latin looking girl. I asked her if she was latina.
she said 'no I am brazilian' I guess they don't like a typical image of Latinos in U.S

When I guess where a latina is from, I exclude Mexico first because they will get offended unless they really are from there. I usually say argentina or spain. It seems like they like that.

When you meet Latin girl - You seem like you are from spain. You have nice dark skin, are you greek? (or italian)
When you meet White girl- You seem like you are from LA (or other major cities). Are you european?
Those are the judgmental comments they will like.

Post: #35

(02-18-2013 03:01 AM)speakeasy Wrote:  Someone like Rasheeda Jones will be lumped in the same racial category as Whoopi Goldberg, and nobody finds anything peculiar about this. In Brazil they would view that as lunacy.

Agree 100%.

Quote:Also, it's hilarious how ignorant she is about race and geography when she asks "does Spain count" as European. Jesus....I guess she was just embarrassed to lose her non-white street cred on national TV

Hilarious, but utterly cringeworthy. I agree about the street cred thing, it's the reason why people were reluctant to clap when the Euro percentage was revealed. That, and a sort of self-flagellating attitude amongst the sort of white people that probably sit in the audience on a George Lopez show.

Quote:And getting back to Oscar de la Hoya, yes the guy is white(racially). He's probably close to completely European stock. Put his photo next to two southern European guys like Javier Bardem and Antonio Banderas and you can see they look like the same stock of humanity.

America is the only nation, maybe Canada too, where this would be of any debate at all. I frequent boxing forums, and watching Americans discuss whether Saul Alvarez is white is hilarious but very frustrating! What you reckon:



Haha. Like Houston said, it's literally a cultural thing in many cases. Although, quick question. To Houston, you said anyone with a Spanish last name isn't going to be considered white much of the time, does that include ACTUAL Spaniards? If so, it's more bizarre than I though!

Post: #36

I mean Alvarez is white to me.

Post: #37

(02-18-2013 03:01 AM)speakeasy Wrote:  

(02-17-2013 04:11 AM)houston Wrote:  Oscar de la Hoya is from east LA and first generation American. Why the hell would he consider himself white lol? No white person in America is going to accept him as a white person and would laugh if he started saying he was.

What someone considers themselves and what they actually are genetically are often two different things. Just like you have clearly black people from Brazil or Dominican Republic claiming they aren't black just because they have a drop of something else in them. You can also have Latinos who are white but consider themselves non-whites(and all "white" means to me for the purpose of this discussion is their blood ancestry, not what people "consider" them, white=European ancestry). America is a funny place with regards to race. First off, we have a history of a one drop rule where anyone with even a drop of black blood was considered black. So even people who "passed" for white would still be considered black, even though anywhere else on the planet they would be considered white. This also seems to get applied to other minority groups, such as Latinos. Someone like Rasheeda Jones will be lumped in the same racial category as Whoopi Goldberg, and nobody finds anything peculiar about this. In Brazil they would view that as lunacy. Secondly, white Americans are mostly Nordics, a mix of Anglo, Germanic, French and Scandinavian people. Those were the founding European stock. Mediterranean whites(mainly from Italy) didn't come here in great number till much later. So when Americans think "white" they tend to think Nordic white with light eyes, pale/pinkish skin and often light hair. Of course people from Spain, Greece and Italy are white just like any other people of European ancestry, they are just more likely to have a tan complexion and darker features because they come from warmer parts of the continent, but they are whites just the same and nobody outside the USA considers them otherwise.

So what happens is that people come here from Latin-America who may be of almost completely European ancestry(not mestizos) and they get labeled as "non-white" because they don't speak English as their primary language and because they have darker features and Americans tend to associate "white" with having Nordic features even though that thinking is mostly confined to the bubble of American racial politics. Like it was noted above, "white" is often a cultural term. A few years ago Jessica Alba(who thinks of herself as "non-white") found out with a DNA test that she is almost all European: http://au.ibtimes.com/articles/20091204/...erican.htm . It shouldn't come as any surprise because if you look closely at her face, it's not like she looks anything like some indigenous Bolivian woman.
She's not dramatically different looking racially than Penelope Cruz who is entirely Spanish:


Also, it's hilarious how ignorant she is about race and geography when she asks "does Spain count" as European. Jesus....I guess she was just embarrassed to lose her non-white street cred on national TV:





And getting back to Oscar de la Hoya, yes the guy is white(racially). He's probably close to completely European stock. Put his photo next to two southern European guys like Javier Bardem and Antonio Banderas and you can see they look like the same stock of humanity.

Quote:Yes, I can tell you have no experience with Latin America or Mexicans/Chicanos in America.

On the contrary I have plenty of experience with Latin America/ns and Mexicans/Chicanos. I've grown up with them and around them.

Quote:He's probably somewhere in the middle since he's first generation which explains all his "Mexican pride stuff" and why he waves American flags in Madrid. It's no different than some Irish American guy from Boston who's proud to be both. Lol at you thinking he looks down on Mestizos for that.

I wasn't the one that said he looks down on Mestizos. That was someone else's speculation.

Good post.

Here is the thing though:

If you are Spanish from Spain in America, people don't really consider you "white".

If you have a Spanish last name and tan features, people don't really consider you "white".

Hell, I am half Irish, half Spanish, and I don't think I was really considered "white" growing up.

So some like Jessica Alba or De La Hoya would definitely not be considered "white" growing up either.

Post: #38

Teedub I think most Americans would be confused with a person,from Spain lol. They hardly, maybe never, run into someone like Saul. I have a cousin with brown hair, blue eyes and light skin and girls just look at us weird when I say were related. They think Im lying.

Having a Spanish last name in America is not cool so I think they want nothing to do with anyone with one, even if the person looks more European than them. The average person associates every Spanish last name with being brown, short and fat so their bubble gets popped when something like that happens.

Post: #39

It's weird, because of course a Spaniard is more European than any american haha

Post: #40

(02-18-2013 09:47 AM)houston Wrote:  Teedub I think most Americans would be confused with a person,from Spain lol. They hardly, maybe never, run into someone like Saul. I have a cousin with brown hair, blue eyes and light skin and girls just look at us weird when I say were related. They think Im lying.

Saul is a proud Mexican too so it blows their minds haha!

(02-18-2013 09:31 AM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  Here is the thing though:

If you are Spanish from Spain in America, people don't really consider you "white".

If you have a Spanish last name and tan features, people don't really consider you "white".

Hell, I am half Irish, half Spanish, and I don't think I was really considered "white" growing up.

So some like Jessica Alba or De La Hoya would definitely not be considered "white" growing up either.

That's crazy that even a European Spaniard wouldn't be considered white! I mean, what else are they? The reason it is so bizarre is that the darker ones look exactly the same as Southern Italians - who ARE seen as white. More evidence that it's a cultural term really, and that Spain is heavily associated with the Mestizos/Indians. The Spaniards will hate that.

So are Penelope Cruz and Antonio Banderas seen as non-whites? What about the rapper Pitbull? He's got blue eyes and calls himself a white Latino? I'm truly interested.

(02-18-2013 09:54 AM)bojangles Wrote:  It's weird, because of course a Spaniard is more European than any american haha

Indeed!

Post: #41

(02-15-2013 11:52 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  I was reading the expat chronicles forum, and dude's Peruvian wife hates Colombians cause there are a lot of Indians. (aka Incas and other indigenious peoples)

True? False? Somewhere in the middle?

In the forum, He said his wife didn't want to visit Bolivia for that reason, not Colombia..

Post: #42

(02-18-2013 10:19 AM)Teedub Wrote:  That's crazy that even a European Spaniard wouldn't be considered white! I mean, what else are they? The reason it is so bizarre is that the darker ones look exactly the same as Southern Italians - who ARE seen as white. More evidence that it's a cultural term really, and that Spain is heavily associated with the Mestizos/Indians. The Spaniards will hate that.

So are Penelope Cruz and Antonio Banderas seen as non-whites? What about the rapper Pitbull? He's got blue eyes and calls himself a white Latino? I'm truly interested.

Yeah, it's super confusing.

I think it is one reason why I have never been effected by race too much, and never really get on the race threads here (except this one I guess).

American's in general probably don't even know Spain as a country exists. They think all Spanish speakers are from "Mexico".

I remember a time when I was younger when a girl asked me what I was, I said, "Spanish and Irish".

She then said, "Why don't you say you are Mexican, why would you say you are Spanish?".

Complete idiot.

And just so you know, this was a girl from one of the richest beach towns in all of Southern California. It wasn't like this girl was from Riverside or something.

I could give a million examples like this of things I have heard/experienced, but I don't want to dumb down the start of my day.

Quote:So are Penelope Cruz and Antonio Banderas seen as non-whites?

I would say yes. They would be considered non-whites.

Quote:What about the rapper Pitbull?

Depends where I think. I have a girlfriend that is Cuban and I think in Miami she is considered white for sure.

But she has told me, when she leaves Miami she realizes how "Latin" she is ie the way she dresses, the way she dances, talks, her body etc.

Keep in mind, this girl looks as white as can be. She is lighter skin than me, and I am half Irish.

So Miami might be different in this regard.

Post: #43

G, one of my best friends in school was a girl from Hialeah (Cuban of course). She looks white but is latina in the same way the friend you're talking about is.

So Spain is the only country in Europe whose people are not considered white? What about Portugal? This shit is really confusing because culture becomes mixed up with skin color.

Post: #44

(02-18-2013 11:24 AM)Menace Wrote:  G, one of my best friends in school was a girl from Hialeah (Cuban of course). She looks white but is latina in the same way the friend you're talking about is.

That's the problem right there though, you're stating your friend "looks white but is Latina" as if Latin is a race. It isn't. You're friend IS a white Caucasian who is CULTURALLY of a Latin background.

The whole "latin is a race" thing is hugely confusing and laughably absurd from the perspective of anyone outside of America.

I mentioned in another thread that football (soccer) to Brits and Europeans in general bridges the gap between Latin America and Europe. That, plus the fact Latin America is much closer to (south) Europe culturally, compared to North America, makes them seem less exotic to us.

The proximity of Britain to Spain/Portugal and the frequency with which we encounter each other makes the thought of not seeing ethnically Spanish and Portuguese people as white seem absurd.

What about Argentines of Italian descent like the footballer Lionel Messi? Most Argentines would throw a fit if they were called anything but European...some I know don't even really see themselves as South American as their culture and sports are so closely connected to Europe.

Post: #45

(02-18-2013 12:00 PM)Teedub Wrote:  What about Argentines of Italian descent like the footballer Lionel Messi? Most Argentines would throw a fit if they were called anything but European...some I know don't even really see themselves as South American as their culture and sports are so closely connected to Europe.

Yes, most of the people here, unless they are some pinko left wing "americanist", will laugh if you calll them "Latino". People here dont usually identify with other countries in South America, they feel their culture closer to South Europe.

Post: #46

The thing you have to realize, gentlemen, is that over 300 years of Spanish colonial rule had major institutional racism and most of these countries do not have the vertical growth opportunities of the United States.

There was something like 16 classifications of race from native Spaniard to black slave or Indian, with every literal combination. A lot of Mexicans have roots dating back to some Spanish sailor having his way with some central Indian. And since paternity was a big deal for the opportunities you were given in life, the people are very sensitive to it. Only among white teen girls do you ever hear the similar vague claims of ancestry to a specific sub-noble from continental Europe. It isn't the binary black/white brand of racism the U.S is used to.

This is why I don't believe in any of the La Raza Aztlan nonsense, which is mostly just lazy college students validating themselves by vilifying the rich white folks who pay for their time at the country clubs posing as universities. On almost a daily basis when I'm around Chicanos I hear the phrase "I'm not Oaxacan, I'm Mexican.

Post: #47

(02-18-2013 12:41 PM)Mekorig Wrote:  Yes, most of the people here, unless they are some pinko left wing "americanist", will laugh if you calll them "Latino". People here dont usually identify with other countries in South America, they feel their culture closer to South Europe.

Would I be correct if I said the only other South American country you do identify with is Uruguay? And possibly Southern Brazil perhaps?

Post: #48

I think their is an identity issue in America of what it means to be a "American". Institutional racism in America has seperated every single group and same goes for blacks in America as well and chicanos/Mexican-Americans like De La Hoya. To many White Americans a Spanish is not one of them, many would probably think that hes Mexican because thats all they have known their whole lives since the majority of Latinos in America who speak Spanish are Mexican. I think its ignorism but what the you expect, Americans are one of the least traveled people in the Developed world, something like 60% of High School kids in America didnt even know where Iraq was in a map. So no surprise there.

When it comes to Latin Americans and indigenous people, I can only say of what I see from Mexicans since my family is from there. Many of them are self hating. People in Latin America worship white skin. To them white skin is beautiful, its sexy, it means status to them. I have many cousins who are obsessed with their skin color and claim to be "white" and basically degrade more darker skinned Mexicans. My dad would always tell me "Marry yourself a white skinned girl so you can 'mejorar la raza'" or in other words "To better the race". I have family members who agree with this type of racism. But this not only happens in Mexico this happens all over Latin America. Look at the Dominican Republic for instance, Sammy Sosa tried to bust a Michael Jackson and bleached his skin. He looks retarted. Many Dominicans try to say their is no black in them when many of them do.

The most white European worshipper in Latin America is Argentina. I went there and they want nothing to do with a "black latin america" They love European culture, and White is their God. Ive noticed that they are very proud people who love their culture, American culture and European culture and thats it. Its funny because they want to be European so bad but have third world problems like poverty, corruption, etc...

Its sad that a lot of Latin Americans act like this.

Post: #49

(02-18-2013 02:08 PM)Teedub Wrote:  

(02-18-2013 12:41 PM)Mekorig Wrote:  Yes, most of the people here, unless they are some pinko left wing "americanist", will laugh if you calll them "Latino". People here dont usually identify with other countries in South America, they feel their culture closer to South Europe.

Would I be correct if I said the only other South American country you do identify with is Uruguay? And possibly Southern Brazil perhaps?

There is a joke about Uruguay beign another argentine province, so they arent a foreign country, but yes, argentinian relates with uruguayan culture, but not 100%. Southern Brasil is a special case, where we had similar inmigration, but because of the lenguage, most of the conections are in our provincies bordering that zone (Corrientes, Misiones).

Post: #50

(02-18-2013 02:32 PM)MidWest Wrote:  The most white European worshipper in Latin America is Argentina. I went there and they want nothing to do with a "black latin america" They love European culture, and White is their God. Ive noticed that they are very proud people who love their culture, American culture and European culture and thats it. Its funny because they want to be European so bad but have third world problems like poverty, corruption, etc...

Its sad that a lot of Latin Americans act like this.

MisWest, the thing with Argentina is that a good size of the population is product of heavy european inmigration, and they still have heavy cultural ties with their background. For example, Italian, Spaniard and other european inmigrants asociations are still strong social meeting points.