Post: #1

Eight solid reasons to dismiss the notion of any gender pay gap.

http://www.businessinsider.com/actually-...011-3?op=1

Quote:1. Men are far more likely to choose careers that are more dangerous, so they naturally pay more.
Top 10 most dangerous jobs (from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics): Fishers, loggers, aircraft pilots, farmers and ranchers, roofers, iron and steel workers, refuse and recyclable material collectors, industrial machinery installation and repair, truck drivers, construction laborers. They’re all male-dominated jobs.

2. Men are far more likely to work in higher-paying fields and occupations (by choice).
According to the White House report, “In 2009, only 7 percent of female professionals were employed in the relatively high paying computer and engineering fields, compared with 38 percent of male professionals.” Professional women, on the other hand, are far more prevalent “in the relatively low-paying education and health care occupations.”

3. Men work in less desirable locations.
Men are far more likely to take work in uncomfortable, isolated, and undesirable locations that pay more.

4. Men work longer hours than women do.
The average fulltime working man works 6 hours per week or 15 percent longer than the average fulltime working woman.

5. Men are more likely to work on weekends.
Men are more likely to take jobs that require work on weekends and evenings and therefore pay more.

6. Even within the same career category, men are more likely to pursue high-stress and higher-paid areas of specialization.
For example, within the medical profession, men gravitate to relatively high-stress and high-paying areas of specialization, like surgery, while women are more likely to pursue relatively lower-paid areas of specialization like pediatrician or dentist.

7. Unmarried women who don't have children actually earn more than unmarried men.
Unmarried women who’ve never had a child actually earn more than unmarried men, according to Nemko and data compiled from the Census Bureau.

8. Women business owners make less than half of what male business owners make, which, since they have no boss, means it’s independent of discrimination.
The reason for the disparity, according to a Rochester Institute of Technology study, is that money is the primary motivator for 76% of men versus only 29% of women. Women place a higher premium on shorter work weeks, proximity to home, fulfillment, autonomy, and safety, according to Nemko.

It’s hard to argue with Nemko’s position which, simply put, is this: When women make the same career choices as men, they earn the same amount as men. As far as I’m concerned, this is one myth that has been officially and completely busted. Maybe you should celebrate International Women’s Day 2011 by empowering women with the truth instead of treating them like victims … which they’re not.

Post: #2

It's obvious that you're intimated by strong independent women and you probably have never gotten laid b/c you're a mysogynistic gay man who is trying to perpetuate the prevalent rape culture and objectification of females.



Just wanted to see how much shaming language I could stuff in one sentence. Those points have all been discussed before but good luck explained them to a woman.

Post: #3

I am still taught in my college courses that women are paid less.

A liberal education is fucking retarded. God fuck I should just stay in construction.

Post: #4

(01-29-2013 12:05 AM)RouteBackwards Wrote:  I am still taught in my college courses that women are paid less.

A liberal education is fucking retarded. God fuck I should just stay in construction.

I am curious. How is this presented? Is this just something that's thrown out in humanities and social sciences classes as a fact? Is it presented in certain classes where the claim is actually investigated?

Post: #5

(01-29-2013 12:13 AM)j r Wrote:  

(01-29-2013 12:05 AM)RouteBackwards Wrote:  I am still taught in my college courses that women are paid less.

A liberal education is fucking retarded. God fuck I should just stay in construction.

I am curious. How is this presented? Is this just something that's thrown out in humanities and social sciences classes as a fact? Is it presented in certain classes where the claim is actually investigated?

In my experience it isn't really presented so much as it is stated as a given, universal truth.

I hear the claim parroted all the time by students, teachers, administrators and presenters alike, and I don't hear any investigation of its merits. It is merely stated (sometimes in order to bolster a larger argument about discrimination) as though it is an indisputable reality, sort of the way you may state that the world is round and water is wet.

Post: #6

In my sociology class we were given a yellow sheet of paper with "evidence" for the pay gap and system discrimination against women. We were never tested on it but it was part of an awareness campaign brought up by all the women's studies majors on campus. I tried to argue with them and brought up relevant information but their eyes just glazed over and they refuted me by repeating themselves. I then pointed out that if they were honestly concerned about the pay gap, they'd do their part to even it out by becoming engineering majors instead of working for 28k a year at a nonprofit.

Absolutely nobody else disagreed with them, which bothered me. The only other guy who was critical of it said that "these numbers are from 2001, and it's 2011", to which the women's studies majors said something to the effect of "it's a recession now, so the pay gap has actually worsened".

There was also a guest speaker at the school that friday night who talked about how butthurt she was when she found out she made less than a male colleague because she spent her time sick and/or making babies instead of working. She didn't give any serious information, it was mostly to talk to girls about their feelings with discrimination and tell boys to sit down and become disciples of female victimhood.

Post: #7

(01-29-2013 12:13 AM)j r Wrote:  

(01-29-2013 12:05 AM)RouteBackwards Wrote:  I am still taught in my college courses that women are paid less.

A liberal education is fucking retarded. God fuck I should just stay in construction.

I am curious. How is this presented? Is this just something that's thrown out in humanities and social sciences classes as a fact? Is it presented in certain classes where the claim is actually investigated?

There are two modes of thought that I have been taught in my courses.

1. That there IS a glass ceiling and that women ARE oppressed in the workplace by men, and therefore paid less. This is the one that seems most prominent in my courses.

2. That the pay gap does not exist but it is a choice of women. However, the giant hamster emerges from the professors mouth at this point, and it becomes implied that the choice is made because women are taught and socialized to be afraid to request raises and be afraid to make the right choices that lead to higher pay. We are then taught that feminism still has work to do in regards to the pay gap by making the work environment more (female) friendly and standardized.

The most excruciating part of it is that everyone buys it. EVERYONE. I had a dude in my course, whom I thought mighta been cool at first, tell the class the patriarchy "screws us all!" I almost threw up in my mouth.

Post: #8

I took a statistics course in college, and this was one of the issues we were assigned to examine.

When you are only considering the variables:
1) years of relevant work experience
2) value of work output
women make about the same amount of money (the difference is statistically insignificant).

What can be argued is that they aren't presented the same opportunities as men. But, if women are more risk averse and less assertive in general, this gets explained away as well. And the culture is rapidly catching up as more women are going to school and entering the professional workforce.

Most of the argument is irrelevant, the rest is outdated.

Post: #9

We can also put in two other things:

1. Women suck at bartering. I swear, my gf pulled the "you're a man getting paid more" i asked her how did she negotiate her salary and of course she went ,"Huh?". I told her when they ask for your salary history you give them a pie in the sky amount and work backwards.

2. Men's wages have been falling. Roissy has a great article on this.

Post: #10

Wage gap myth
[CONSAD study](http://consad.com/index.php?page=an-anal...-and-women)

'The report demonstrates that it is not possible now, and doubtless will never be possible, to determine reliably whether any portion of the observed gender wage gap is not attributable to factors that compensate women and men differently on socially acceptable bases, and hence can confidently be attributed to overt discrimination against women.'

[Forbes article on the wage gap myth](http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/201...-pay-myth/)

'Academics can debate why men and women make these different choices. The important takeaway, however, is that there are many reasons that men and women on average earn different amounts. It’s a mistake to assume that “wage gap” statistics reflect on-the-job discrimination.'
[Government accountability office study]( http://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-04-35)

‘Of the many factors that account for differences in earnings between men and women, our model indicated that work patterns are key. Specifically, women have fewer years of work experience, work fewer hours per year, are less likely to work a full-time schedule, and leave the labour force for longer periods of time than men. Other factors that account for earnings differences include industry, occupation, race, marital status, and job tenure.’

If the gap is not entirely explainable through non-discriminatory differences then why do young women out earn young men? With the huge claim of sexism and discrimination throughout the work place that is affecting every woman throughout her working career why does the gap reverse when it comes to those women who are under 30?

http://www.time.com/time/business/articl...74,00.html

Now the majority of this gap can be measured by life choices, more young women go the college etc, however the gap that remains doesn't automatically get chalked up to discrimination and sexism against young men as that would be an outlandish and farcical claim.

Now if the claim is that a raw un adjusted gap definitely shows discrimination, or that the choices willingly made by men and women that account for the gap are over arching effects of a discriminatory culture or system that disadvantages women, then I retort that In fact men who work part time experience a far larger un-adjusted gap in their earnings than women who work full time.

[Economix article on part time wage gap](http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/0...-earn-men/)

[Average earnings of part time men in graph form]( http://imgur.com/a/WuVf9)


[Screen shots of steps for graph](http://imgur.com/a/FKgLw)

[Source of graph data BLS](http://data.bls.gov/pdq/querytool.jsp?survey=le)

Post: #11

(01-29-2013 01:44 AM)RouteBackwards Wrote:  

(01-29-2013 12:13 AM)j r Wrote:  

(01-29-2013 12:05 AM)RouteBackwards Wrote:  I am still taught in my college courses that women are paid less.

A liberal education is fucking retarded. God fuck I should just stay in construction.

I am curious. How is this presented? Is this just something that's thrown out in humanities and social sciences classes as a fact? Is it presented in certain classes where the claim is actually investigated?

The most excruciating part of it is that everyone buys it. EVERYONE. I had a dude in my course, whom I thought mighta been cool at first, tell the class the patriarchy "screws us all!" I almost threw up in my mouth.

The humanities/social sciences are mangina recruitment/training centers. If you go against this idiocy you'll pay for it in more ways than just your grade.

Post: #12

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/20...n-men.html

Post: #13

(02-05-2014 12:09 AM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/20...n-men.html

I made this a thread a couple days ago. /thread-32689.html

Post: #14

(02-05-2014 02:59 AM)Snowplow Wrote:  

(02-05-2014 12:09 AM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/20...n-men.html

I made this a thread a couple days ago. /thread-32689.html

Good thing it didn't get locked.

WIA

Post: #15

Which side are you referring to in your thread title, the one that says there is or one that says that there isn't a pay gap?

All the points listed in the op indicate that there actually is a pay gap, but the reasons for why it exists have to do with the differences in the types of jobs that men and women persue and how they run their own businesses.

Feminists would argue that the reason women don't take the more challenging jobs is that as they are developing, women haven't been, and are not now, encouraged as much as men to take the higher risk/pay jobs.

Essentially, your points provide evidence that there is a gender based pay gap (even the un married one) Sounds like more fodder for the feminists.

I read somewhere (nytimes) that women are actually closibg the pay gap these days. Don't know where you are going with posting this thread but it seems a little I could be wrong.

Post: #16

@Soup

The gap is ~5¢ not 25%. ROK and others have previously made this point, as has the Washington Post and NOW, the national organization of women.

Our argument for men and women is if you want to make money, you gotta do what the market wants, tech, math, engineering, dangerous blue collar work.

WIA

Post: #17

(01-29-2013 01:00 AM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

(01-29-2013 12:13 AM)j r Wrote:  

(01-29-2013 12:05 AM)RouteBackwards Wrote:  I am still taught in my college courses that women are paid less.

A liberal education is fucking retarded. God fuck I should just stay in construction.

I am curious. How is this presented? Is this just something that's thrown out in humanities and social sciences classes as a fact? Is it presented in certain classes where the claim is actually investigated?

In my experience it isn't really presented so much as it is stated as a given, universal truth.

I hear the claim parroted all the time by students, teachers, administrators and presenters alike, and I don't hear any investigation of its merits. It is merely stated (sometimes in order to bolster a larger argument about discrimination) as though it is an indisputable reality, sort of the way you may state that the world is round and water is wet.

This has been my experience, too. American women from 18 to 60+ believe the gender gap thing with more certainty and less room for questioning than they believe the sky is blue.

Post: #18

WIA- I never said anything about the percentages- just pointing out that the op is substantiating th belief that men and women are earning different amounts, which I'm assuming is the definition of pay gap.

And like I said, feminists will agree with you and say that any difference exists because women are not encouraged to take those jobs when they are growing up, not because they are weak or lazy.

Post: #19

(02-05-2014 09:23 AM)soup Wrote:  All the points listed in the op indicate that there actually is a pay gap, but the reasons for why it exists have to do with the differences in the types of jobs that men and women persue and how they run their own businesses.

Feminists would argue that the reason women don't take the more challenging jobs is that as they are developing, women haven't been, and are not now, encouraged as much as men to take the higher risk/pay jobs.

Essentially, your points provide evidence that there is a gender based pay gap (even the un married one) Sounds like more fodder for the feminists.

I don't think anyone disputes that there is a raw wage gap, i.e. a gap in the total earnings of men and women. But when numbers like 77% get thrown around, as in the State of the Union speech, the context is always "why aren't women getting equal pay for equal work?" The implication is that men and women working right next to each other doing the same job for the same hours with the same training and experience are being payed different amounts, due to sexist discrimination.

If the discussion was based on real facts, it would have to talk about the things this article mentions, e.g. women not taking the riskier, more stressful jobs, and/or more technical jobs. Yes, one explanation would be what you suggest--that patriarchal/sexist pressures keep them from doing so. Another explanation might be that they just don't want to.

But as long as the conversation begins and ends with "Women make $.77 for every dollar a man makes due to evil sexist bosses," we're stuck in la-la land.

Post: #20

Thanks Ryre. Could not have said it better, and I tried

Post: #21

(02-05-2014 11:10 AM)Ryre Wrote:  

(02-05-2014 09:23 AM)soup Wrote:  All the points listed in the op indicate that there actually is a pay gap, but the reasons for why it exists have to do with the differences in the types of jobs that men and women persue and how they run their own businesses.

Feminists would argue that the reason women don't take the more challenging jobs is that as they are developing, women haven't been, and are not now, encouraged as much as men to take the higher risk/pay jobs.

Essentially, your points provide evidence that there is a gender based pay gap (even the un married one) Sounds like more fodder for the feminists.

I don't think anyone disputes that there is a raw wage gap, i.e. a gap in the total earnings of men and women. But when numbers like 77% get thrown around, as in the State of the Union speech, the context is always "why aren't women getting equal pay for equal work?" The implication is that men and women working right next to each other doing the same job for the same hours with the same training and experience are being payed different amounts, due to sexist discrimination.

If the discussion was based on real facts, it would have to talk about the things this article mentions, e.g. women not taking the riskier, more stressful jobs, and/or more technical jobs. Yes, one explanation would be what you suggest--that patriarchal/sexist pressures keep them from doing so. Another explanation might be that they just don't want to.

But as long as the conversation begins and ends with "Women make $.77 for every dollar a man makes due to evil sexist bosses," we're stuck in la-la land.

Thanks Ryre. You summarized the problem with feminism quite nicely. There are still serious gender related problems (I hate to even call it sexism) in the workplace today. The problem is you can't openly discuss them in a way that might lead to resolution because feminists want to make it all about oppression by the male sexist pigs. They want men to be punished for being men. There's no openness to discuss how men and women both contribute to the problem and how we might work together to find a solution.

Post: #22

(02-05-2014 11:02 AM)soup Wrote:  WIA- I never said anything about the percentages- just pointing out that the op is substantiating th belief that men and women are earning different amounts, which I'm assuming is the definition of pay gap.

And like I said, feminists will agree with you and say that any difference exists because women are not encouraged to take those jobs when they are growing up, not because they are weak or lazy.

Exactly. It's the same as talking to slippery socialists. Even if you prove their argument to be wrong, they always shift the argument onto something else to fit their narcissistic world view. You will never win and the victims never change. I just sent the article to a male feminist (yeah I know, I really shouldn't bother). His response:

Quote:About the pay gap, well maybe a man and a woman in the same position roughly make the same these days but that still doesn't change anything about the fact that women are usually the ones stuck with the kids and thus unable to build careers like men tend to do. So society is pushing women in lower paying jobs. Just look at the cashiers in supermarkets. 90% female.

Apparently free choice doesn't exist in 2014. Women are being forced into lower paying jobs! It's evil conditioning! Women are just as good at maths and science but aren't encouraged to pursue those subjects at school because of the patriarchy! Engineering is a men's club that discriminates against women! Ad nauseum...

Post: #23

(02-05-2014 08:38 PM)dreambig Wrote:  

(02-05-2014 11:02 AM)soup Wrote:  WIA- I never said anything about the percentages- just pointing out that the op is substantiating th belief that men and women are earning different amounts, which I'm assuming is the definition of pay gap.

And like I said, feminists will agree with you and say that any difference exists because women are not encouraged to take those jobs when they are growing up, not because they are weak or lazy.

Exactly. It's the same as talking to slippery socialists. Even if you prove their argument to be wrong, they always shift the argument onto something else to fit their narcissistic world view. You will never win and the victims never change. I just sent the article to a male feminist (yeah I know, I really shouldn't bother). His response:

Quote:About the pay gap, well maybe a man and a woman in the same position roughly make the same these days but that still doesn't change anything about the fact that women are usually the ones stuck with the kids and thus unable to build careers like men tend to do. So society is pushing women in lower paying jobs. Just look at the cashiers in supermarkets. 90% female.

Apparently free choice doesn't exist in 2014. Women are being forced into lower paying jobs! It's evil conditioning! Women are just as good at maths and science but aren't encouraged to pursue those subjects at school because of the patriarchy! Engineering is a men's club that discriminates against women! Ad nauseum...

I think everybody at this time deserves to have the basic fundamentals of living- shelter, food, education, healthcare, etc. does that make me a socialist.

Post: #24

(02-06-2014 01:31 AM)soup Wrote:  I think everybody at this time deserves to have the basic fundamentals of living- shelter, food, education, healthcare, etc. does that make me a socialist.

Hard to tell from that statement. Socialism is lots of nice sentiment (I was a socialist as a teen) but it doesn't work in the real world. If you give away all those things then there is no incentive to work for many people. Just look at the state of Western Europe.

Post: #25

(02-06-2014 02:04 AM)dreambig Wrote:  

(02-06-2014 01:31 AM)soup Wrote:  I think everybody at this time deserves to have the basic fundamentals of living- shelter, food, education, healthcare, etc. does that make me a socialist.

Hard to tell from that statement. Socialism is lots of nice sentiment (I was a socialist as a teen) but it doesn't work in the real world. If you give away all those things then there is no incentive to work for many people. Just look at the state of Western Europe.

Yes but when you look at the wealth disparity and take into consideration the power of ideas, you might be inclined to think things like: if the basic level of education across the globe rose a few percent, then wouldn't a lot of the world's problems disappear?