Post: #1

It's no surprise that most hardcore feminists are ugly women. It's almost impossible for them to have a strong sexy husband to take care of them, so they must work in order to survive.

Meanwhile, the manosphere recognizes the problematic nature of allowing women to work:

1. It fuels their hypergamy, making them less likely to marry a decent man when they are young.

2. It doesn't really make anyone except greedy corporate CEO's richer. With dual incomes, big businesses just double their prices and so we're all half a rich as before.

3. It kills birthrates, resulting in demographic ruin.

As a result, there is a true conflict of interests here. Ugly women need feminism to promote their interests as a working class so they can survive.

But feminism is ultimately poisonous for society at large and hurts more people than it helps.

It's not an ugly woman's fault she's ugly. In fact, it's a tragedy that women are born ugly in the first place, but there's nothing anyone can do about it.

I know if I was an ugly ass woman, I'd be a feminist too. It would be totally in my self-interest.

Thus, what can our response for ugly women be? How can we argue against them? How could we ever offer them the vision of a better world?

Post: #2

Didn't these women use to be governesses before, raising the kids of hotter girls for their living? To me this sounds win-win for everyone except the ugly girl.

So, they have a raw deal in life. But of course, they didn't have to starve. Which is what a man who couldn't earn a decent living would do (male equivalent of ugly girl, per-sexual liberation).

Now no one starves, and so naturally no ugly girls are happy just to stay alive and warm by raising other people's kids - they don't have a significant chunk of people to feel better than (the poor and starving).

Edit: There is no solution, other than to remove all welfare. Then it will fix itself.

Post: #3

We should round them up and march them off cliffs!

Post: #4

   

Shame is always good.

Post: #5

the majority of women are plain. If they lost weight and dressed feminine they could get inseminated

Post: #6

They must lower their standards, but they won't, so feminism fills the hole when they fail to find an alpha.

Frost had an excellent post on this: http://www.freedomtwentyfive.com/2012/06...-are-ugly/

Quote:The ultimate goal of the Feminist is to create a world in which all women are as hideous and awful and dead inside as they are, so that everyone can have an equal timeshare in the alpha harems, and everyone’s fatherless offspring can be raised by the same uninspired bureaucrats in the same grey-walled, concrete and plate-glass buildings.

Post: #7

Maybe being ugly is a social handicap period, for anyone. Ugly men don't necessarily get a free ride either. An ugly man is less likely to get sex and interest from women. More likely to have less friends, be less trusted, wouldn't be as easily promoted as a handsome man or have as many opportunities thrown at him. I'm sure ugliness can be just as debilitating for men as being unusually short. These nutball random shooters are never pretty boys.

Main difference between male ugliness and female ugliness is that personality and money can compensate when attracting the opposite sex. But how many ugly dudes are up to their eyeballs in cash?

I think the three bulletpoints Samseau listed are valid reasons to oppose feminism, but if tomorrow there were no ugly women, I don't think that would change anything. The feminism = ugly women argument is overblown. It's a fallacy of composition(as Samseau alluded to in cuckhold thread). All women are still basically feminists now, pretty or ugly. Even conservative women. Sarah Palin is just a right-wing feminist. The cats out of the bag here. I don't think feminism can realistically be reversed unless it's by some calamity of nature where we go back to the law of the jungle and the strong-man. Only other way I can think of is for companies to start discriminating against women and just stop hiring them. But that would be illegal and you'll have to face the EEOC. I wouldn't advocate that either as someone who believes in social justice.

Post: #8

This is actually an interesting question and one that we should take seriously. While it's true as Roosh points out that many do not lower their standards I would argue that the vast minority of ugly women are not loud mouthed feminists with unrealistic standards. Many are just shy librarian types that would probably make great mothers. These are the types that need to be caught and saved from the misery of seöf-pity.

Post: #9

(12-28-2012 10:51 AM)Vicious Wrote:  This is actually an interesting question and one that we should take seriously. While it's true as Roosh points out that many do not lower their standards I would argue that the vast minority of ugly women are not loud mouthed feminists with unrealistic standards. Many are just shy librarian types that would probably make great mothers. These are the types that need to be caught and saved from the misery of seöf-pity.

this is a good point.

Post: #10

Tell them to go to South Dakota!

I'd tell them the same thing I'd tell other girls, to maximize the hand they've been dealt. Dress nicely, be in great shape, cultivate a feminine, sweet presence. Marry early, at peak attractiveness. Decide if you want to risk adultery by marrying the highest status man possible, or getting a little more security with a somewhat lower status man. Consider older men. Don't have sex with men until they agree to be your exclusive boyfriend. They won't get as far as a pretty girl, but they still will have no trouble getting male attention in modern America.

They might have to cut themselves off from sources of hypergamous temptation. That means avoiding bars and even most mass media. If she's serious, this shouldn't be too hard. Of course, most girls, ugly or not, don't want the package I'm proposing.

Post: #11

A russian saying says that: "There are no ugly women just lazy women".
I can say that it's mostly true a lot of women that we consider ugly will get one or two points better if they decide to invest in their physic and in developing an interesting and warm personality.

Post: #12

There are very few "extremely unattractive women" assuming they are skinny and in shape. If you look at people who lose weight they go from "ugly" to "okay" at worst. If you are an okay looking girl, you'd end up with a decent guy anyway.

Also if you use brazil as an example, the average girl, didn't really have a "great face" but they were always in shape, happy and personable which was the drive and obsession with them. So I'd say again your advice to ugly women is the same. 1. Stay in shape, 2. Learn the basics of cosmetics, 3. Be happy and personable. The biggest and most overlooked part is the personality trait, read the blogs out there they all reiterate the same stuff "have you met a smart woman" or a "feminine woman" or a "interesting woman"... That's an overlooked complaint that could be addressed by the girls who would be 6's if they were in shape, fill a void of actually being interesting, but we've already programmed them to believe "they are perfect the way they are".

In short: great question but no reason to get a solution since they won't listen anyway. Save your money, expat when you can't pull here anymore.

In terms of the other three points, the demographic projecting the future of the entire human race is a big waste of time. You're trying to predict the impact of immigration, emigration, wage disparity, etc etc over the next decade? That's an incredible waste of time because you won't even be close. Sounds like some sort of "college" class run by a bunch of idiots who weren't smart enough to make money themselves so they make a thesis and get on TV to talk about the future which they practically never get right. No need to look further than the 70's and 80's no one would have predicted out current environment, predicting out 20+ years from now? Better go find an idiot to preach to (not me) because life is too short to worry about things you can't control.

Post: #13

The vast majority of ugly women will never be on our side.

Think of what the typical ugly woman gets under the current arrangement:

- Sex from men who, in a just world, should be way, way out of there league. Sure, they can't have sex 'on demand' from top tier guys, but hands up who hasn't drunkenly/impulsively banged a meh chick? Yeah, I didn't think I was the only one.

- The provider/protector role filled by the state, welfare, alimony, child support, the church, and an always-willing army of betas hoping for a morsel of their rancid meat curtains in exchange for their valiant white knightery.

- The support of a small but growing movement of fat acceptance activists who are willing to reassure them that their hideousness is to be celebrated, not hidden.

As I explained in the post Roosh linked above, the sexual revolution benefited ugly women and alpha males, while punishing desirable women and betas.

How should the Manosphere react to ugly women? Well for the 99% of ugly women who are ugly by choice, make self-destructive life choices, and won't listen to anyone who would dare tell them they can't have it all... I suggest laughing in the face of their well-deserved cat-and-loneliness-filled futures.

But, for the rare woman who is just has bad features, but keeps herself in shape, dresses well, has a nice personality, isn't a slut, respects her man, and is smart enough to settle a bit... I think she can do quite well for herself. An old family friend of mine fits this profile perfectly. She is a great girl, but has a pretty unfortunate face. But, she is in great shape, takes care of herself, appears to have been a great girlfriend to the same guy for the past few years. He would get destroyed in the meat market scene, but he's a decent looking nice guy with a good job. There are worse fates than winding up with a guy like him, but try telling that to any contemporary American woman.

As for the original question though, the Manosphere should encourage and reward ugly women (as with all women) to make smart choices that benefit themselves and society. We should discourage and mock girls who don't.

Post: #14

I ignore ugly women. I try not to make eye contact with them. Unless, they are good cooks!

Post: #15

The response should be this. "Ugly chicks are not our problem."

Post: #16

(12-28-2012 07:35 AM)Samseau Wrote:  Thus, what can our response for ugly women be? How can we argue against them? How could we ever offer them the vision of a better world?

Opps, I didn't see these questions...

1) No response, why give them the attention?

2) Argue with an ugly women?!? Ewww, why?

3) Get a decent body, you will have a better chance, have good hair, be a good cook, have good relationships with friends and family, explore your interests and passions, lower your standards a bit, be glad you're not in a taliban controlled area!

Post: #17

(12-28-2012 07:35 AM)Samseau Wrote:  Thus, what can our response for ugly women be? How can we argue against them? How could we ever offer them the vision of a better world?

Tell them to go on a diet, exercise, and maybe get plastic surgery.

Post: #18

1. They can clean up their act to look better
2. They can find other skills which might help long-term like cooking, cleaning, giving good head
3. They can bang betas, because nice guys without sex don't stay nice forever

Post: #19

Every single girl can have a great body, most of them can have bodies that are quite close to the feminine ideal. Some girls are just disproportionate in a bad way(legs too short) but most are pretty well proportioned and can be very sexy if they lift some weights(squat, deadlift, kb swing) and eat a diet filled with protein, fat and vegetables. The cultures that produce girls with amazing bodies are the social dancing cultures where when you go out with your friends and dance for 4 hours once or twice a week. If you do this for years on end, you will have the muscles that cause you to have great legs and butt. Lifting heavy weights is another way to develop these same muscles in a fraction of the time. Even if you stop working out, the muscle still sticks around even though it may become detrained.

The average american girl is 15-25 lbs overweight and doesn't dance to nearly the extent that the girls in the south american cultures do. On top of that she doesn't eat very many vegetables, omega 3 fats or cold water fish and scarfs down frappacinos and soda like it is going out of style.

There is plenty of room for these girls of marginal attractiveness to improve, unfortunately that will not happen unless they learn to cook for themselves and exercise with heavy weights a couple of times a week. I have converted a couple of girls to this lifestyle and they rapidly shed weight and are much happier and get much more male attention.

Post: #20

So basically, there's nothing we can say to them. Let's consider a manosphere response to a feminist's response:

Manosphere response #1: "Lower your standards."

Feminists response: "You don't need a man to complete your life, you can instead pursue a career and take life into your own hands."

Manosphere response #2: "Eat clean, exercise, and attract better men."

Feminist response: "Eat whatever you want. Live for yourself and don't let men judge you."


Feminists also can use the fact that ugliness isn't just limited to women who were born with ugly features, but also as women get older and uglier the feminist message will resonate with them even more.

There's literally no compromise on this subject: All men desire beauty, whereas only some women do. As long as the manosphere vision involves creating a society where a woman's beauty holds high importance, we will always be opposed by uglier women.

I'm begaining to think that the only way there will ever be a male friendly world again is one without democracy.

Post: #21

(12-28-2012 06:28 PM)Samseau Wrote:  So basically, there's nothing we can say to them.

We can say many things to them. But, why would we want to?

Being ugly is there problem, not ours. If they are unwilling to become more attractive, that's their business.

I want to talk to attractive women. I don't have time for uglies and fatties.

(12-28-2012 06:28 PM)Samseau Wrote:  Manosphere response #1: "Lower your standards."

Feminists response: "You don't need a man to complete your life, you can instead pursue a career and take life into your own hands."

Manosphere response #2: "Eat clean, exercise, and attract better men."

Feminist response: "Eat whatever you want. Live for yourself and don't let men judge you."

See what I mean?!? It's not even worth arguing with them!

Ugly face, ugly body, ugly attitude = I'm not interested.

(12-28-2012 06:28 PM)Samseau Wrote:  I'm beginning to think that the only way there will ever be a male friendly world again is one without democracy.

I don't think we too much to worry about. A man is still free to do as he chooses. (at least here in the usa)

Do you think you would be better off as a woman?

Post: #22

I see plenty of what most would consider to be ugly women with guys that have a lot going for them and who are pretty good-looking guys. In my personal opinion, this would be true whether feminism existed or not. As corny as it sounds, people "fall in love" with who they fall in love with. And a lot of men are less discerning than you think.

Not to mention there are many ugly men who are more than happy with any woman at all.

I don't think there's any reason to change manosphere arguments to suit "ugly women." For one, the saying "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" is a very real thing. For another, if any of us really feels ugly women don't fit into the more traditional gender roles, that individual may be upholding a utopian view of the past that never actually existed.

I also agree with the sentiments above that most women, no matter their level of physical beauty, can make themselves more attractive with a little effort and especially a little femininity.

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #23

(12-28-2012 07:35 AM)Samseau Wrote:  It's no surprise that most hardcore feminists are ugly women. It's almost impossible for them to have a strong sexy husband to take care of them, so they must work in order to survive.

Meanwhile, the manosphere recognizes the problematic nature of allowing women to work:

1. It fuels their hypergamy, making them less likely to marry a decent man when they are young.

2. It doesn't really make anyone except greedy corporate CEO's richer. With dual incomes, big businesses just double their prices and so we're all half a rich as before.

3. It kills birthrates, resulting in demographic ruin.

As a result, there is a true conflict of interests here. Ugly women need feminism to promote their interests as a working class so they can survive.

But feminism is ultimately poisonous for society at large and hurts more people than it helps.

It's not an ugly woman's fault she's ugly. In fact, it's a tragedy that women are born ugly in the first place, but there's nothing anyone can do about it.

I know if I was an ugly ass woman, I'd be a feminist too. It would be totally in my self-interest.

Thus, what can our response for ugly women be? How can we argue against them? How could we ever offer them the vision of a better world?

The topic of this thread is a fallacy. I'd rather earn the cash and give some to women who need it instead of thinking about the whole situation. If all men are willing (and what man is seriously uninterested in helping a woman) I could see ANY woman live large in that situation. Just let me do my job.

Imagine: a woman who doesn't have to work and can decide for herself what she wants to do. Oh wait. Thats how feminists had it in the 60s.

Post: #24

I treat ugly women like attractive women treat betas in any polite public setting; I ignore them, but if they gather up the courage to talk to me, I'm not above humoring them with a few minutes of chat (provided they are polite and pleasant). If the interaction goes south I either walk away or the knives come out, and if they make an overture, I rebuff with 'I'm seeing someone'.

Picture in your head all the girls you've banged; if you're anything like me, you'll have a pretty large collection of girls ranged from decent to good, a few that are very good and two or three that were ridiculous...and on the other end, two or three that you think 'What the fuck was I thinking!?' This is all thanks to Feminism; ugly women think they can compete with hot women, both because they're told that they can compete with hot women, and almost all of them will, even if just once, experience the dick of a desirable player (albiet after too many drinks or in a moment of poor judgment on his end).

I honestly don't think that game helping men fuck more women is why Feminists hate us (well...they do hate that it encourages us to go overseas to look for wives and girlfriends, an act which is pretty much analogous to outsourcing [Going overseas to fuck pretty foreign girls is like telling the fat, spoiled American woman 'You're fired...why would I pay you $18 an hour when I can find a girl in Russia who will do the same job for $3?']); they don't hate us learning to fuck more women if we stick to fucking Western women; they hate us because the very notion of game; working out, cultivating a cool personality, generating income and upping your looks, goes against the whole 'Everyone is equal and has to be equal!' notion of the movement.

I'm also in agreement that most women can up themselves 1-3 points with a diet-exercise regiment, better clothes, trips to the salon and a smile; it's amazing how many Chinese girls I see with rather unfortunate faces, but dress nice, do their hair, keep skinny and have goofy-smiling lapdog boyfriends in tow, carrying their purses.

LOL of the day; if you spell 'Feminism' as 'Femenism', the first spelling suggestion is 'Ecumenism'...replace church with state and what do you get?

Post: #25

I treat the ugly chicks a bit better than the attractive ones myself. I hate the treatment hot chicks get. The free drinks, holidays, cars, gifts, compliments and a general free ride through life. I like knock 'em off the pedestal.