Post: #1

I really don't take the time to post or read on the game forums too much these days but kind of felt as though this was something I wanted to post about just in case it might help some guys out there who may be working on game, but feel as though their results aren't matching their improvements in skill they are making. I've gamed in various different countries around the world.... with women from all different types of backgrounds as well as met/helped some guys from the community as well. This was an issue that I noticed with other minorities in game that really helped improve ALL their results.

I started like most people out there... coming from a low point in life wanting to work on my skills with women or just socially in general and improve as a person. I was making lots of progress going out probably 5-6 nights a week, seriously committed to getting this area of my life handled. I had taken various workshops with different companies that I felt were instrumental in getting me on the right track and definitely VERY valuable from just a life standpoint in general, as well as my game. I felt myself getting much better skill wise with women and was very pleased with how things were coming along but it felt as though I hit somewhat of a wall in terms of the results I was getting. I was able to get phone #s no problem, make outs no problem, day 2s much less frequently, and a full close much less frequently if ever. I figured there had to be something wrong with my game, some kind of leak in my personality that I simply needed to work on since that's what the game had taught me, that the game is the game is the game and if something went wrong it's in your control to fix it. Well that was true for sure, but the answer I ended up finding to help solve my issue wasn't really written about extensively in the community, at least that i'd seen anyway, or if it was the extent to how big of an impact it would have on your results was not stressed in any meaningful way to get my attention.

Basically, I was a black guy that was gaming/practicing/sarging in venues with white girls that basically were not very much into black guys. Yes, I know there are white girls that love black guys, I've hooked up with those not a problem, but the standard white girl that I was trying to pick up was not into a black guy the same way in which she's into another white guy. I mean it's totally understandable, there's added social pressures on her from family/friends for dating outside her race even if unspoken, even if there isn't she might not feel comftorable with it, or a myriad of other reasons that really just go deep into some of the more complex racial/social views that exist in our society. Now for most of the gurus/coaches out there, they probably don't have any experience dealing with this issue since the majority of them are white and go after white girls, and even if they don't other races don't really have the same social risks of dating a white guy as they would from dating a black guy with some of the negative stereotypes we have in general. I really hate playing the "race card" and certainly avoid it in most of my everyday life, but not acknowledging it as having an effect on the results I was getting with women is simply not making the best decision as far as what's going to get me what I want.

Yes I was able to get some results here and there with white girls but not more than white friends of mine who were asking ME for advice on how to game, which further confused me because I had noticeably more game than them. I also spent a lot of time examining this belief of mine that I was developing because I hated the idea of just sitting back and placing all the blame in my lack of results on race. So that's how I ended up gaming in other countries and other races of girls. When I went to some of these countries I had no problem getting day2s, lays, or multiple girlfriends... and it basically felt like the skills I had been honing elsewhere was getting me much better results just by changing where I was playing the game. I also experimented with just gaming solely black girls even though I'm not as into them, JUST to further experiment around and try to find out what it was. The disparity between the results I was getting in general was just incredible. The same sticking points I ran into with girls outside of my race were MUCH less prevalent with girls of the same race as me, or girls in antoher country that was more accepting socially of interracial dating. I even ran online tests using two guys who were pretty much identical in terms of looks and profile, but one was black and one was white and would send the same message with a controlled sample size on both. Again, the difference in results was pretty amazing, and this is an experiemnt you could do on your own.

Again, this isn't saying at all that it's impossible to like amazingly hard to get a white girl if you are black (one that doesn't already like black guys on her own), but it's just saying that the results you are going to get will NOT match your white counter part or the results you would get if you were in your own 'market' so to say. It's kind of like the idea of playing a basketball game but starting the game already down 50 points. You CAN win, you just have to be THAT much better than the other team and become THAT much more skilled than the team you're playing in order to overcome that deficit in points. It can be done with hard work and really finetuning your skills but even then it will not be consistent winnings because some of the time that team will have a bigger initial lead than 50 (when a girl has more social pressures on her or insecurities with dating outside her race than others). Meanwhile another team that just starts off with a score of 0-0 that has the same skill as you is going to win more times overall than you. And yeah, even the times you don't "win" the game, you're still scoring points or sometimes coming close... in the form of getting make outs, #s, getting back to the girls place, LMR, etc.

I mean this post isn't to say white girls are racist BY ANY MEANS AT ALL (just figured i'd state that since I don't even want this to steer that direction), because it's perfectly natural to have your preference in guys, the same way we have our preference in women, some women just like a guy of their own race more than outside of that, perfectly fine. Just being observant because being oblivious would have had me constantly wondering for another 2 years why my results aren't where I want them to be.

Some of you minorities may have already figured this out and that's cool, silly me right? But from what I had read online in all the resources I'd seen and heard was that looks didn't matter, race didn't matter, nothing mattered but game. The most potent resources I had found usually came from Tyler Durden and he'd constantly make comments like "Put me in anyone of yalls body's and I will pull, I WILL", well yeah he'd pull in my body too but not nearly with the same regularity or consistency he does with his own market. I pull in my body as well.

The reason I decided to post this though was because there are a bunch of guys i've met through game that are minorities practicing their game in mostly white venues completely confused as to why they don't get the same results as some of their friends or get the results they feel their skill should dictate. I know for myself, I felt as though my game was really coming along and most of the skills mentioned in game I could do and pretty damn well, but my full closing rates were considerably low. Then as soon as I changed my target market my results pretty much changed instantaneously. Obviously in the USA if I had some kind of venue where I could game non-black girls that just specifically liked black guys I'd have been able to have that realization there as well but it just doesn't really exist. So i'd randomly get girls here and there that liked black guys and i'd get results, whereas gaming in a market where all the girls are open to you basically felt like playing the game from 0-0 for once.

http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=158261

Post: #2

We all have certain factors which we can control:

Quality of game? Go out and do more approaches, get feedback from other players.

Looks? Go to the gym, change up hairstyle, dress in nice clothes calibrated to your target girls.

Logistics? Educate and improve yourself to get a job which enables you to afford a decent pad in a good spot, so you don't have to convince girls to bang in your Corolla.

But at some point there exists a line beyond which we can't change ourselves, and must change the nature of the game, by changing up the opponents. I would classify this as meta-logistics, in the sense of putting yourself in the place you can do the most damage. If that's a different bar, or a different neighborhood, or a different country.

Post: #3

I think you will find on this forum that race is acknowledged as a legitimate factor.

The commercial guys don't say anything because they don't want to limit or discourage their pool of potential customers.

Post: #4

(12-21-2012 11:30 AM)Menace Wrote:  I think you will find on this forum that race is acknowledged as a legitimate factor.

The commercial guys don't say anything because they don't want to limit or discourage their pool of potential customers.

Yeah, we all acknowledge that race comes into play on how a girl perceives you, but it's also one factor out of many.

Commercial guys "don't say anything" because there's nothing you can do to change your race, so there's nothing to be gained by expounding upon it. That's why race talk is discouraged on this forum, because at some point it'll devolve into "fuck white women, they'll never go for an [Indian, black, asian, etc.] guy like me!"

Post: #5

Pretty good post especially me being a nigga. Dudes just have to realize that pulling outside of race is usually much harder. I don't really bother iwoth white chicks because the return isn't there. There are high quality black guys that will settle for a basic white chick.

Post: #6

To OP, I'm black, and I've talked extensively on this very topic and I've got good experience with it so allow me to weigh in.

Basically the issue is framing. Yes, black guys are perceived differently to girls, particularly white girls. They are perceived as more sexual, but also more dangerous. The thing is, plenty of white girls whether they openly admit it or not, are into black guys or are at least curious. In fact, if your going into an area with mostly white people (and your the only black dude in the venue) you can easily play this to your advantage (via supply and demand, framing etc). If your consistently striking out with white chicks, change up your frame.

There was a recent study done on the interracial preferences of whites to prove my point:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/a...ECOND.html

I have no problem whatsoever getting decent looking white girls, why? My framing skills are excellent. And I can charm the pants off them (literally). This is arguably the most important game skill you should work on if you prefer to date outside your race. Race is perception. Stereotypes. Reverse the frame and reverse the stereotype.

What I will say is I don't recommend online for gaming white girls. I do terribly online for reasons I can't fully make out, but it definitely involves race.

Change up your "sales" strategy, portray yourself as the prize. Play being "the other" to your advantage rather than dis-advantage. Basically don't be "white-guy lite" you can't compete with that. Don't approach game like the stereotypical white guy.

At the end of the day, if a girl rejects you because of your race, its not really your fault, so there's absolutely no need to feel sorry or inadequate because of it. It's not your fault, it's theirs. Judge them, not yourself.

Post: #7

I remember reading that post about a year back, and I endorse it 100%. My experiences have been right in line with it, and this is a serious problem for minority guys trying to get into game and self-improvement. Many are beating themselves up after realizing poor early results, only to realize later that they were playing the game on hard-mode to begin with (a process I went through).

You've got to get in where you fit in. There's no need to lash out about it and let it impact your frame. The proper response is to adapt and find markets where the things you have to offer are desired. Leave everyone else to their own devices and desires.

Post: #8

Another I might add is black dudes have a tendency to put white chicks on a pedestal (sometimes regardless of weight), and this fucks up the game. You know have fat white girls seeking out black dudes because they think they will get acceptance and dick. You have some white girls who seem to imply black guys are lower value, and hence rebuff your advances. Who wants to be with a scrub?

It's about having good self-respect/regard, taking women off pedestals, and evaluating people correctly. Many of us grew up in single parent homes without a man around to teach and instruct how shit is done and this has taken its toll with our collective reputation.

Post: #9

I have fucked different races of women. They are all the same. I'm Black and honestly I'm getting tired of reading these "whoa is me White girls don't want to fuck me because I'm black" topics on forums. It's pathetic.

You come off as obsessed with her skin color more than if she is hot. That reeks of neediness. All women are turned off by that. Instead of obsessing about getting white girls. Bang the best looking girl you game will allow you to get regardless of race.

Post: #10

I saw this post on sosuave a while back and found it astute. There's just no way around it, if you're black and you want to date play the field with all colors, you have to demonstrate higher value to negate your blackness, unless the girl is already already predisposed to liking black guys.

Personally, I have no interesting in trying to "convince" a non-black woman of my worth. If she doesn't view me as an equal, then I don't care to try and persuade her. It's not worth my time and I have too much fucking pride for that. Find your market.

(12-21-2012 12:44 PM)OkStudies Wrote:  There was a recent study aon the interracial preferences of whites to prove my point:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/a...ECOND.html

I could believe that British white females find black male faces more attractive than white male faces given that white British people are generally not that attractive. I don't believe this is true for a second amongst white females in the USA however.

Edit --

Btw, Apollo, it's a faux pas around here to give your own thread a high rating. Race threads are discouraged as well though some seem to be allowed if providing value.

Post: #11

Should have changed the thread title from minorities to black guys.

Post: #12

I agree with the OP's observation's and have gone thru the same thing.Where I live you gotta know where your advances will be well recieved.There is still a WHOLE LOTTA old school closet racist and elitist areas and people in my city you just gotta avoid em when it comes to approaching.

Post: #13

+1 Great post, I went thru the same findings, and eventually I learned one of the most important things was where I was gaming, and the type of girls I was gaming, i.e. location and market demographics.

To iterate Athlon McGinnis, "Get in where you fit in!"

Post: #14

Tyler from RSD just doesn't tell the truth. My friend took his bootcamp. My friend is 6'1" and have pretty strong facial features. Tyler told him, "You know, my life would be so much easier if I was in your body."

These commercial boot camp mix so much real teaching with propaganda that I can no longer trust what they are teaching. Which totally sucks. We all want to believe something 100% so we can dive into it and give it all we got. Instead we get confused in this swirl of pseudo knowledge.

Back to race - yea, demographics is key for minorities.

OP - care to share which countries you had the most success with white girls?

Man, in LA, the hottest clubs are packed with girls from the show OC ~ Lauren Conrad, Heidi Montag type. Those girls are absolutely the hardest for minority. They are so freaking sheltered and cliquish you'll get rejected 9/10 times. I have a better shot with a supermodel from Russia.

Post: #15

This is an issue, and country matters to a huge degree. Living in Russia, as a minority, with the same game as a white dude you will see 20% of the results. It sucks. I'd say that the US is actually far more tolerant of interracial dating then other countries. If you say that other countries have better results, it's probably because there are few minorities there and you are seen as something unique and different - if minorities were more prevalent in said countries, perhaps the reception wouldn't be as positive.

Anyway, I think this is a valid thread. Which is why I keep getting confused over this Indian race troll thread - instead of bashing him, focus on giving advice on where the best audiences are to target and what behaviors/game to mimic to improve his chances.

Post: #16

(12-22-2012 02:11 AM)ao85 Wrote:  This is an issue, and country matters to a huge degree. Living in Russia, as a minority, with the same game as a white dude you will see 20% of the results. It sucks. I'd say that the US is actually far more tolerant of interracial dating then other countries. If you say that other countries have better results, it's probably because there are few minorities there and you are seen as something unique and different - if minorities were more prevalent in said countries, perhaps the reception wouldn't be as positive.

I love Russian (i.e. Eastern European) girls! I'm thinking of traveling there some day. Could you drop more info on what it's like gaming their as a minority? What race/ethnicity are you if you don't mind me asking?

Post: #17

White guys in U.S go to South America or South East Asia and they get better treatment by women.
Minority guys come to U.S and they get treated worse.
I think it's a Zero Sum Game. If someone is getting a benefit, someone else is suffering.

Just like guys love to talk about their advantages in certain countries, I think it's totally fine for minority guys talking about their disadvantages As long As it's Informational.

What I realized is you gotta be a Buddhist Monk. Monks don't pray about something,
'please make me rich, please help me with this girl, please forgive me for this etc'

For them, it's about Acceptance whatever happens. you will be more peaceful if you just accept the outcome instead of trying to fight it.

Since I've been going out for a long time, I have a track record. I know I will attract totally my type of girl every 1~2 months. Bad thing is it takes certain amount time to attract a chick. But the good thing is it will Happen sooner or later whether I like it or not.

So instead of trying to make it happen tomorrow (getting stressed), I just keep going out since it will happen eventually.

As far as minority thing goes, I am an Asian. All the girls who actually came out for 1st date were related to some asian stuff. they had asian ex, they are into asian music, soap opera, culture, they have a thing for asian guys. Although I hit on any girls I like, I realized this is something I can't avoid.

For minority guys, number game should be a top priority. Your job is to find a girl who already has interest in your race and culture. If a white guy doesn't have to work as much in certain countries, minority guys have to work harder. (to balance)

Post: #18

(12-22-2012 04:12 AM)Sebastian Wrote:  Your job is to find a girl who already has interest in your race and culture.

How do you do that though??

Yeah, minorities are just gonna have a harder time with white girls in America unless you look like a white guy. The only ways I can think of to work around this is to act extremely white, screen for girls who have fever for whatever you are (like Sebastian said) or be the token minority in a white social circle. A lot of barely legal white girls are curious though and will give you a chance to try it out.

It's just a numbers game because I don't know how to really screen which is why I asked Sebastian. It's only obvious with ugly and hoodrats who try real hard hard to act like whatever you are. It gets old fucking the ones with Latin fever unless they just act themselves which is rare.

I really like what speakeasy said. I'm not gonna go out of my way to prove I'm "not like the rest" just to get some pussy. Fuck that shit. That's what you have to do with huge chunk of white girls though if you have Anglo Fever

Quote:Personally, I have no interesting in trying to "convince" a non-black woman of my worth. If she doesn't view me as an equal, then I don't care to try and persuade her. It's not worth my time and I have too much fucking pride for that. Find your market.

Post: #19

I meant just keep hitting on girls till you run into a girl who will like you instantly.

However, it's true that you should have an idea of what kind of girls you can attract by looking at the record. I still approach the type of girls I never attracted because I don't want to make excuses to myself 'hm she won't be into an asian anyways'

There were few times I doubted they would be into me.
But as soon as I approached, they lighted up like a christmas tree.
(it's like a getting a heroin shot even though I never tried. it's addicting and feels like you are alive)

IMO, you should only screen if they are friends. (go for the asian friendly one) If they don't know each other, well you can just try both and see what happens

I don't think you should act like something else.
Girls can see even average white guy trying to act like a white frat bro. (they both fall into 'acting white' category)

I am just trying to be more personable while learning and adapting to american culture.

I have no interesting in trying to "convince" a non-black woman of my worth. If she doesn't view me as an equal, then I don't care to try and persuade her. It's not worth my time and I have too much fucking pride for that.

For minority guys, women's interest level is usually black/white.
So all you have to do is letting them know you are there and you are interested in her.
I still come up with some clever openers but usually I just say 'hey I had to talk to you'. I don't believe in 'gaming' to change her attitude when I see no initial interest from her.

(12-22-2012 04:34 AM)houston Wrote:  

(12-22-2012 04:12 AM)Sebastian Wrote:  Your job is to find a girl who already has interest in your race and culture.

How do you do that though??

Yeah, minorities are just gonna have a harder time with white girls in America unless you look like a white guy. The only ways I can think of to work around this is to act extremely white, screen for girls who have fever for whatever you are (like Sebastian said) or be the token minority in a white social circle. A lot of barely legal white girls are curious though and will give you a chance to try it out.

It's just a numbers game because I don't know how to really screen which is why I asked Sebastian. It's only obvious with ugly and hoodrats who try real hard hard to act like whatever you are. It gets old fucking the ones with Latin fever unless they just act themselves which is rare.

I really like what speakeasy said. I'm not gonna go out of my way to prove I'm "not like the rest" just to get some pussy. Fuck that shit. That's what you have to do with huge chunk of white girls though if you have Anglo Fever

Quote:Personally, I have no interesting in trying to "convince" a non-black woman of my worth. If she doesn't view me as an equal, then I don't care to try and persuade her. It's not worth my time and I have too much fucking pride for that. Find your market.

Post: #20

(12-21-2012 11:30 AM)Menace Wrote:  I think you will find on this forum that race is acknowledged as a legitimate factor.

The commercial guys don't say anything because they don't want to limit or discourage their pool of potential customers.

Yup and yup.

Race does play a factor, like anything else physically (body type, face, fat, size, height, etc) but people bitch too much about it and troll with it. It's like any other factor--you can either try to offset it, or use it to your advantage. Trying to deny who you are doesn't work. Play into your strengths, offset your disadvantages if you choose, and accept that certain markets are warmer.
I'm white and still do much better with working-class white and SWPL black girls than I do with the typical college/post-college snow bunnies. I'm learning to adapt my game, simply because it's a challenge and it'll be useful (since they are usually much hotter), but still.

Post: #21

Ive noticed you posting about race a ton Apollo

Post: #22

(12-22-2012 04:12 AM)Sebastian Wrote:  White guys in U.S go to South America or South East Asia and they get better treatment by women.
Minority guys come to U.S and they get treated worse.
I think it's a Zero Sum Game. If someone is getting a benefit, someone else is suffering.

When I was in Lithuania I chose to Hang with minorities exclusively because the girls worshiped them, which helped me a ton... Black, Filipino, Guatemalan, Puerta Rican...... Lets not forget how well minorities can kill it in EE... Hell, probably most of Europe

Post: #23

I think the biggest hurdle with regards to race is families. Many chics are DTF with a guy of a different race as long as nobody finds out about it. If you meet a girl and decide you want more than a one-off, the family issue will come up. A lot of girls just don't want to deal with that drama or be forced into a position of choosing between a guy and being disowned from their family.

There's no effective way I can think of to deal with that. It's not just white girls. I know as a black guy, an Asian, middle eastern or Latina girl's dad does not want his daughter dating black guys and will probably go apeshit if he finds out. Of course not all families will care. I once dated a white girl who came from a super liberal family. Her dad was remarried to an E. Indian woman and had a brown-skinned kid with her. So he was obviously open-minded on interracial dating. I think that's the exception though.

I once missed out on this pretty cute Assyrian girl once that was feeling me. We had a common friend and she told him that she was interested in me but couldn't risk her family finding out. One of my boys was dating an Armenian girl(Armenians are notorious for being fiercely endogamous unless your last name is Kardashian). In the time they were seeing each other he never met her family and she was terrified to break it to them. Eventually it ended.

Post: #24

(12-22-2012 02:01 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  There's no effective way I can think of to deal with that. It's not just white girls. I know as a black guy, an Asian, middle eastern or Latina girl's dad does not want his daughter dating black guys and will probably go apeshit if he finds out.

So true. Its much worse with the minorities than the white families. Lots of times the white family wont voice their disapproval because they don't want to be branded racist but usually the minorities will loudly voice their displeasure with their daughter dating a black guy. Hell even African families hate for their daughters to date a black guy.

Post: #25

(12-22-2012 02:01 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  I think the biggest hurdle with regards to race is families. Many chics are DTF with a guy of a different race as long as nobody finds out about it. If you meet a girl and decide you want more than a one-off, the family issue will come up. A lot of girls just don't want to deal with that drama or be forced into a position of choosing between a guy and being disowned from their family.

That's the key to it all: peer pressure. From family, friends, and everyone she respects and loves.

The number of white girls who are into blacks guys is fairly high, but the number who are open and willing to express that desire in public is quite low. Why? Many of them have a host of relatives and close friends who look down on the idea.

At my school, it was not uncommon for any girl who was seen to have a preference for black guys (it doesn't take much association to be labelled with this "preference"-making out with one or two guys in the span of a few months is enough) to get painted with a whole host of names behind her back, often by men but also by her female friends.

Mudshark, coal-burner, BBC-lover, etc...all kinds of shit I'm sure many girls would prefer not to have attached to them.

Keep in mind, my school is in the supposedly "liberal" Ivy League, host to a mass of highly educated, well traveled people. This isn't just some deep-south/redneck thing. This mentality exists all over the place, and many girls just don't want to fuck with it.

And yes, minorities have their own dating prejudices. I come from a Jamaican family, and there is a very strong prejudice against Africans in our culture. I do have some Nigerian cousins via marriage (that branch lives in the UK), but my own mother was specifically told by my grandmother not to bring her Ghanaian boyfriend back to the island for a family reunion. This man has been in our lives for over a decade now and is a very close family friend, but my grandmother wouldn't hear it.

Some of us in the diaspora are beyond this prejudice (particularly in the UK, where my Nigerian cousins are), but it can still be quite strong. A lot of Jamaican girls still can't bring an African home.

Similarly, I've had African-American male classmates/teammates in college tell me flat out that they are not allowed to bring a white girl home to their parents, who they implied would be extremely concerned if they did. You'd be surprised at the number of black men who look at white girls as strictly casual sex partners and completely eliminate them for anything even approaching a relationship. A lot of my college teammates were in that boat.

Keep in mind that these are precisely the kind of black men (very well educated, D1 athletes, future professionals, etc) who are stereotyped as the most likely to marry white women. That stereotype is exaggerated.