Post: #51

(11-17-2012 06:50 AM)ElJefe Wrote:  Lol, you guys crack me up. Just read the wikipedia articles instead of mindlessly reiterating left-wing talking points and Arab propaganda. Your posts are full of errors, but if you read the articles you'll fix most of them, I'm sure. Seriously. Read the articles, which will be under the highest scrutiny due to the subject's controversy, then see if you still believe what you write.

You have to be absolutely deluded and brainwashed to think there is some kind of moral symmetry here. Read up on the Rules of War. If you can't discern between who's behaving badly and who's not, you need a head-check and to re-examine your red-pill status.

I just read the Wikipedia article.


Looks like the Jews bought the land from Arabs, and then the Jews were savagely attacked by other racist Arabs who didn't like the Jews buying the land.

So, although the Jews are morally right to defend themselves, they erred badly for buying land from people who hated them. Apparently they weren't aware about Islamic hatred toward Jews before they bought the land.

Post: #52

(11-17-2012 11:13 AM)Samseau Wrote:  

(11-17-2012 06:50 AM)ElJefe Wrote:  Lol, you guys crack me up. Just read the wikipedia articles instead of mindlessly reiterating left-wing talking points and Arab propaganda. Your posts are full of errors, but if you read the articles you'll fix most of them, I'm sure. Seriously. Read the articles, which will be under the highest scrutiny due to the subject's controversy, then see if you still believe what you write.

You have to be absolutely deluded and brainwashed to think there is some kind of moral symmetry here. Read up on the Rules of War. If you can't discern between who's behaving badly and who's not, you need a head-check and to re-examine your red-pill status.

I just read the Wikipedia article.


Looks like the Jews bought the land from Arabs, and then the Jews were savagely attacked by other racist Arabs who didn't like the Jews buying the land.

So, although the Jews are morally right to defend themselves, they erred badly for buying land from people who hated them. Apparently they weren't aware about Islamic hatred toward Jews before they bought the land.

That is not true. The land that was purchased was about 3% of the area. The rest was obtained under the pretext of war. Here are the words from an Israeli foreign minister and Oxford trained historian.

Quote: "The reality on the ground was that of an Arab community in a state of terror facing a ruthless Israeli army whose path to victory was paved not only by its exploits against the regular Arab armies, but also by the intimidation and at times atrocities and massacres it perpetrated against the civilian Arab community. A panic-stricken Arab community was uprooted under the impact of massacres that would be carved into the Arabs’ monument of grief and hatred."

It comes from the book Scars of War, Wounds of Peace: The Israeli-Arab Tragedy by Shlomo Ben-Ami, who is an historian trained at Oxford and was the former Israeli foreign minister.

He goes on to say that the Israelis intended to kick the Palestinians out. It was part of the plan to expel the Arabs and form a Israeli state based on an ethnic Jewish population (hence the Palestinians had to go).

The anger Palestinians have against the Jews is not just built on Antisemitism though. The Palestinians are angry because they suffered a great injustice and continue to suffer largely because of Israeli occupation of, according to international law, their land.

It would be easy to dismiss Palestinians if they were suicide bombing and shooting rockets because they hated jews. Given the context of international law however I can see that they are fighting for their rights. I don't agree with violence or terrorism as a means to fight injustice but to say that they are killing Israelis because they hate jews is erroneous.

Post: #53

Here are some pretty good vids about Gaza and settlers in the West Bank:

Post: #54

This conflict will last for many more decades. The root is to be found many decades ago (WWII).

Post: #55

@Sabra:

you are a true hero for being on RVF forum while sheltering from Bombs. I mean it.

Fact is, Israel was artificially created after WWII and 100% backed up by the US. Unfortunately, the idea of founding nation state is totally 19th century, and therefore, alas for all jews, dated. A jewish nation is much better off in diaspora as in a forced-upon-others-territory.

Kosko is right: Israel is it's own worst ennemy, not hamas.

Post: #56

(11-17-2012 03:56 PM)michelin Wrote:  This conflict will last for many more decades. The root is to be found many decades ago (WWII).

We can't even stretch this back to WWII. The events that happened then are set. Nobody can go back and change the Mandate or Resolutions. Moving past that the Israelis kicked around the Arabs in any conflicts they had prior to 1967, that's all fair in the game of War. No logical Arab aside from being a sour grape can backtrack past 1967 as a base of its arguments against Israel. That was its own chapter whiten the larger book/story of this conflict but IMO its pages have been sketched and are behind us. What was fought for and agreed upon in Armistice is 10000% valid. Is the USA going to go give back the South-West to Mexico anytime soon?

I commend @Captian AHab for doing a data dump on facts and realities in regards to the conflict. Look people can attack the style and the way I colour my posts but I have done the due diligence and the research to frame my views and stances on topics that relate to Geo-Politics and Foreign Policy. When you go down that rabbit hole and are not a complete shill or clown you simply can't ignore the facts at hand. Israel has been acting illegally in regards to the Palestine situation since the the start of the occupation. The only reason it has not had any binding repercussions is because it has been impossible to get any Security Council resolution passed in the UN to do so. The USA has used its Veto power in regards to Israel over 30 times, here is a list of all of its Vetoes in that time frame.

There was one that did pass. Israel has been in violation of UN Security Council Resolution 242 (S/RES/242) since 1967. Israel has failed to comply with this and continues occupy the Territories. The Israel - Palestine situation starts from 1967 onwards anything prior is trivial.

The general idea of Jordan and Egypt simply taking over the two parts has ZERO chance of working. Its easy to look at a general map and say it makes sense but the actual realities on the ground point otherwise:

   

Israel has actively been Swiss Cheesin' the Palestine Territories with Settlements, and Roads. It has taking strategic spots where water resources are present, and have strategically built on hilltops for military reasons. The end goal for Israel is to completely absorb the two parts. This is quite obviously clear and and has been a long and steady plan by the Hard-lined Zionist Government over the course of the past 45 years of the Occupation. Everything from the bulldozing of homes, the restrictions on roads and passage, the amping up of tension, etc has been the process of slowly chipping away at the Territories and its people. There is a reason this has been the longest Military Occupation in the Modern-Era.

Here is Jimmy Carter with great talking points on the Occupation and the struggles with diplomacy in dealing with the Occupation and Apartheid:





Right now as it sits the Palestinian people are dammed if they do and dammed if they don't. The "State of Palestine", or the "One State Solution" is nothing more than a booby trap that was set by the inept PLO in the 1990's. The Oslo talks IMO all it did was back Palestine into a corner. They took "power" over land, but its power granted is void of any self-determination or autonomy. Without either of those two you have no real power, none.

[To contrast this the situation of South Africa, the Black population was granted full access to the avenues of power, it was able to be autonomous and seek self-determination as it saw fit. The only flaw in this process was that economic powers where never handed over and still (to this day) sit in the hands of the old South African Anglo establishment/elite.]

Its greatest bargain tool was the issue of the land. To this day I do not understand why they gave that up but in hindsight the PLO was a corrupt group of tools whom lived a lavish life while their fellow people lived in squalor. Wikileaks later reviled in documents that the PLO was a weak underbelly of Israel, it was heavily compromised and never truly have the best intentions of the Palestinian people at heart in the 1990's.

All this attention on the GAZA Zoo/prison/refugee camp which is one of densely populated strips of land on the globe. Its points of entry for trade, food, anything are controlled by Israel forces? GAZA is not that much larger in area then Philadelphia, and it has barley any functional infrastructure, plus it is under a near Blockade and is nearly completely isolated from the outside world logistically. I can smuggle rockets through the jungles of Africa but how about Gaza?.... Nobody asks the source points for Hamas at all, and IMO is another boondoggle that nobody in the West wants to even take a sniff at (even if they did access would be completely cut off for them in doing so) as one famous quote in regards to war is that in any conflict "Guns and Missiles do not grow on trees...". Nobody has ever been able to accurately look into source points for these Rockets? The conventional narrative comes from one (heavily biased) source with is nothing more than a IDF propaganda push.
Another question I am thinking of is what is the grand picture in this current conflict? Is it simply to do with GAZA or should we also be keeping eye to the situation in West Bank which IMO has more potential of volatility being that is closer to Syria.

Geo-Politics is the grand Chess game. As much as it interests me I still get irked because people are getting killed by the movement of Chess pieces.

For anybody whom is interested a great Documentary to watch is:

Peace, Propaganda & The Promised Land (2004):




I admit this is the exact film that "woke me up" from the Western views of the Israel-Israeli conflict. After I watched this film in 2006 or 07 months after the Israel-Lebanon War. After I had to go back and re-learn all of my history since everything that I thought to know about the situation was largely untrue. I had an idea back then of how the USA Media was a big shill factory but this really broke down the architecture and apparatuses set up to shape and mold USA/West public opinion.

Post: #57

(11-16-2012 01:13 PM)Sabra Wrote:  I'll try to make it simple for those who still don't understand.

Maybe if Israel just adhered to the various UN Resolutions that it has repeatedly ignored and leave the occupied West Bank and let it develop into a viable Palestinian state, maybe you would not be under siege. Oh yes, get the hell out of the Golan Heights and take your damn religious whack job settlers with you too.

Post: #58

(11-17-2012 12:20 AM)RobP Wrote:  Right you are HencredibleC.
Further points along your line-Sri Lanka's not majority-Muslim either-lol-Buddhists (Sinhalese) and Hindus (Tamils) recently concluded their civil war there! And Philippines is obviously mostly Catholic. Somebody went crazy with their green pen! Also Armenia is incorrectly green.

HC and RobP – regarding the map you guys are totally right. I had just done a google search for a map of muslim/jewish countries and copied the first random oneI found, should have checked it before posting. Thanks for pointing that out.

I think the point I was trying to get across is clear anyway – Israel is a tiny spec in a huge sphere of Muslim countries – nobody could blame us for protecting ourselves ferociously. We’re not asking anybody’s permission or forgiveness for that.

Post: #59

Glad to see that nobody arguing with me here disputes any facts, and only spouts rhetoric and inane chatter.

A quick search on the Everything Else forum shows that Israel comes up in searches about 2 times more than Syria. 3 times more than Sudan. 3 times more than Rwanda. 10 times more than Chechnya. Odd, there is about 100 times more killing in those places than here. 40,000 at last count in Syria. Why isn’t anyone talking about that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_civil_war

I recently saw a report about do-gooder Europeans coming to volunteer in Palestinian communities ‘ravaged’ by the occupation. They were allowed entry into Israel and had free access to travel, internet, religion, media, etc. They ended up volunteering on some large olive grove in the West Bank. When asked what they thought about the situation in Sderot, they didn’t know what that was (if you don’t either, stop posting here and look it up). When asked what they’d done to help the situation in Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Syria, Darfur, Rwanda, etc., none of them had done anything. Those were genocides. Their stock answer was, ‘we all do what we can’. One said ‘that would be too dangerous’. I’ll let you all draw your own conclusions about that.

I’m not defending everything ever done by every Israeli ever. Someone mentioned the Irgun. It was founded to prevent Jewish settlements from frequent Arab raids, but ended up performing several terrorist acts. There are some settlers who cross the line in their treatment of their Arab neighbors. Some ultra-orthadox who do damage to both sides. OK. Show me a country without such history. Like anywhere else, we’ve got a silent majority that just wants to live and let live, and a few loud mouths who make trouble. Regardless, if you think we’re leaving here, think again. Saying we’re better as a diaspora? Guess you never heard of the Holocaust. If anyone else has any other ideas, well, like John Lennon said, we’d all love to hear your plan.

I would say that the majority direction in Israel in the 90’s was for peace, even at the cost of giving up large parts of land in the Territories. We’ve always done that, including giving the Sinai back to Egypt after they attacked us in return for peace. But it’s been spit back in our face so many times we’re getting worn out. The Camp David Accords were refused by the Palestinians. Egypt is close to tearing up the peace treaty. They regularly violate it by moving large weaponry close to the border. We pulled out of Gaza only to have thousands of rockets shot at our citizens. We had to tear up settlements and pull Israelis out of their homes to do that – it was an extremely painful process. Even the Palestinians themselves can’t put forth one face for negotiations – Fatah and Hamas killed each other in the hundreds a few years ago – how many of you called for peace? The point is, even when we want to negotiate, we don’t have anyone to do it with. It’s sweet when naïve people say ‘if you just gave up a little more land, all this conflict would end.’ Cute idea, if you don’t mind ignoring history.

Post: #60

(11-16-2012 01:13 PM)Sabra Wrote:  

I am devouring so my news on the subject today Facebook and Twitter is a gold mine of info. Here is a great article which dissects that fraudulent numbers the IDF puts out - the author also dissects this specific claim in the picture posted above:

Dissecting IDF propaganda: The numbers behind the rocket attacks

Post: #61

Regarding Michelin’s remark, military time can be slow time. Same in bomb shelters. Not much to do while you’re sitting around waiting for the next alarm to go off. Or waiting for my next call up for Reserves. Hopefully it won’t come. Hopefully I won’t be called up a week before my wife is due to give birth, as happened recently with a friend.

Like I said, armchair generals. It’s comfortable for people to make remarks sitting halfway around the world watching tv in their living room. When I lived in Brooklyn we called men like that toys. So far I’ve heard of one person who’s made remarks on here who actually bothered coming to see the Middle East for himself before judging. Walk a mile in our shoes. Or would you be crying on the first flight back home minutes after the first bomb alarm went off?

@CabtainAhab – if you’re seriously looking to learn about the issue, that’s admirable that you don’t start off with a pre-biased notion, in either direction. This is a complex area – try to get your info from as many sources as possible, reading and realizing the inherent bias that each one has. Come to the Middle East and experience it for yourself if you’re interested enough. But basically you’ll need some Hebrew, some Arabic, some Farsi, some Turkish and at least a decade before you can get a real feel for the place and the history, so hey. Others seem to think that they're qualified experts after watching a few documentaries or reading an article or two. Hopefully you know better than that.

Post: #62

Post: #63

(11-17-2012 07:30 PM)kosko Wrote:  


I am devouring so my news on the subject today Facebook and Twitter is a gold mine of info. Here is a great article which dissects that fraudulent numbers the IDF puts out - the author also dissects this specific claim in the picture posted above:

Dissecting IDF propaganda: The numbers behind the rocket attacks

Haha, wow, now I've heard it all. Kosko argues why having rockets shot at you isn't really all that bad. Sure buddy. How many have you had fired at you? How many at your kids? How long would your country wait to retaliate in Israel's situation?

The only thing really wrong with the statistics is saying that one million people are within range of Hamas' rockets. Now that they're firing on TLV and Jerusalem too, its more like 5,000,000.

I think this puts the argument to bed. I've had enough for now, this is making me sick.

Post: #64

(11-17-2012 07:26 PM)Sabra Wrote:  Glad to see that nobody arguing with me here disputes any facts, and only spouts rhetoric and inane chatter.

A quick search on the Everything Else forum shows that Israel comes up in searches about 2 times more than Syria. 3 times more than Sudan. 3 times more than Rwanda. 10 times more than Chechnya. Odd, there is about 100 times more killing in those places than here. 40,000 at last count in Syria. Why isn’t anyone talking about that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_civil_war

I recently saw a report about do-gooder Europeans coming to volunteer in Palestinian communities ‘ravaged’ by the occupation. They were allowed entry into Israel and had free access to travel, internet, religion, media, etc. They ended up volunteering on some large olive grove in the West Bank. When asked what they thought about the situation in Sderot, they didn’t know what that was (if you don’t either, stop posting here and look it up). When asked what they’d done to help the situation in Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Syria, Darfur, Rwanda, etc., none of them had done anything. Those were genocides. Their stock answer was, ‘we all do what we can’. One said ‘that would be too dangerous’. I’ll let you all draw your own conclusions about that.

I’m not defending everything ever done by every Israeli ever. Someone mentioned the Irgun. It was founded to prevent Jewish settlements from frequent Arab raids, but ended up performing several terrorist acts. There are some settlers who cross the line in their treatment of their Arab neighbors. Some ultra-orthadox who do damage to both sides. OK. Show me a country without such history. Like anywhere else, we’ve got a silent majority that just wants to live and let live, and a few loud mouths who make trouble. Regardless, if you think we’re leaving here, think again. Saying we’re better as a diaspora? Guess you never heard of the Holocaust. If anyone else has any other ideas, well, like John Lennon said, we’d all love to hear your plan.

I would say that the majority direction in Israel in the 90’s was for peace, even at the cost of giving up large parts of land in the Territories. We’ve always done that, including giving the Sinai back to Egypt after they attacked us in return for peace. But it’s been spit back in our face so many times we’re getting worn out. The Camp David Accords were refused by the Palestinians. Egypt is close to tearing up the peace treaty. They regularly violate it by moving large weaponry close to the border. We pulled out of Gaza only to have thousands of rockets shot at our citizens. We had to tear up settlements and pull Israelis out of their homes to do that – it was an extremely painful process. Even the Palestinians themselves can’t put forth one face for negotiations – Fatah and Hamas killed each other in the hundreds a few years ago – how many of you called for peace? The point is, even when we want to negotiate, we don’t have anyone to do it with. It’s sweet when naïve people say ‘if you just gave up a little more land, all this conflict would end.’ Cute idea, if you don’t mind ignoring history.

Your trolling bro.

You do realise that Israel has ran a MILITARY OCCUPATION FOR 45 YEARS.

Now take a breath and re-read this:

MILITARY OCCUPATION OF THE PALESTINE TERRITORIES FOR 45 YEARS.

Now Re-read this line one last time:

ISRAEL HAS RUN AN ILLEGAL MILITARY OCCUPATION FOR 45 YEARS.

This is the issue. Not Romantic stuff from decades ago. It has ZERO barring in the issue at hand now, those scores have been settled with blood during the Arab-Israel Conflicts Post WW-II.

Now this is why you are trolling (low key of course)

Your trying to verse us on Genocides when you are lumping instances in which those situations (Tunisia, Syria, etc) where not the case. You are baiting a discussion into a topic that is dark and grimy. Even in my criticisms of the Israel Zionist Government I left out the fact that they are doing nothing more then ethnic cleansing in the occupied territories.

There are some hot stones you have to leave out of things. You are not wanting to talk facts here and keep Romanticising the dialogue.

The facts you have been posting have been inaccurate or dodgy as hell. Your baiting the speech in this topic to go down the dump-pit of Genocide talk. Its a bear-trap a mile long which I hope anybody on this forum is wise enough to avoid.

You take character shots at me as you somehow assume my history? Do you know me ? My history? No. But since you think you do....

Verse me on the Genocide of my people during the Biafra struggle in the 1960's? A Million of my people we're killed. I don't ask for your crocodile tears so stop trying to force any from me or others on this forum. I would not be alive if my Father did not flee to go hide in the jungle for 4 weeks. No food other than leaves to it, his village was partially burned down, brother killed, and his mother raped. I don't need your sympathy bro.

I am not a PC man. I'm red-pill, radical, and call shit how I see it. I am sure your nice guy, but you need to expand your views. Any sound and open-minded Jewish person if looking at the situation critical void from any propaganda will ... *gasp*... sympathize with the Palestinians.

This is why you generally see Rabbis in New York, etc, opposed to the Israeli Government. They are well versed and wise enough to call out bullshit when they see it. I can't fault a person if they have read inaccurate history because I myself was in that camp as well but you have to be able to be open and critical to take in each side of the story in a effort to find truth and balance.

Post: #65

American guy: Hmm, do I want to have Chinese or pizza delivered right to my door? Should I play Xbox or watch high def porn? Should I take a second hot shower today? Damnit, only 500 channels and nothing's on! Time to check out my favorite rap dude's twitter feed...

Israeli Guy: Fuck, the bombs are falling again! Hope none of my friends or family die today. Well, off to my army reserve post, hope I don't die today...

Palestinian Guy: Death to Israel and America! If only I could kill them all with my bare hands, Allah would be so proud! All I want is my 72 virgins after I blow myself up at the mall...

Post: #66

Post: #67

I totally agree with Sabra on this issue. I encourage everyone to actually visit the Middle East before making up their minds one way or the other. The media information spin is complete bullshit. Don't just go there as a tourist but actually spend time with the people. Talk to not only Arabs but Israelis as well. For me, going to Israel and the Arab countries in the region was a very real and eye-opening experience. Everything I thought I knew was wrong. People in the US think that the media here is pro-Israel but that actually couldn't be farther than the truth.

I've even talked to Israeli settlers in the West Bank (the guys with the black hats, suits, and pigtails). Totally different than what I expected. Very cool and chill guys. I've also talked to very hospitable and friendly Palestinians. In fact, I first entered Israel through the Jordanian border at Sheikh Hussein. An Iraqi Jew (Israeli) picked me up in his taxi at the bus station in Beit She’an. My destination was Jerusalem but I arrived in Israel on the day of Shabbat so all bus services were closed. So I paid this guy like $200 and since I had no reservations for a Jerusalem hotel (which are ridic expensive), he suggested I stay in Ramallah that night and go to Jerusalem in the morning if I preferred. As an Israeli, he was not allowed to go into the West Bank so he called his Palestinian friend who had a special permit to travel between Israel and the West Bank. That guy picked me up and took me to Ramallah. That was my first introduction to Israel. You would think from watching the news that Israelis and Palestinians hated each others guts but here were two men from two different sides, a Muslim and a Jew, who were friends and made money together. That's REAL.

I just want to say that much of the criticism against Israel is rooted in anti-semitism. This whole moral equivalence stuff is BS. You simply cannot compare Israel to Hamas. Israel in my opinion has been too soft towards Hamas and too respectful to the United States about an issue that any other nation would have responded far more quickly and ferociously. If Israel was the United States, the West Bank and Gaza wouldn't even exist. They would have already been nuked. But Israel shows great restraint towards its enemies.

Hamas needs to wake up to the reality. They are responsible for the suffering of the people in Gaza. This is an irresponsible entity that doesn't even recognize the State of Israel which has existed since 1948. They are dedicated to the destruction of Israel - a country vastly superior to them in every way - and cling to conditions that any responsible government would know is a pipe dream. When are they going to be serious about peace? That means recognizing the State of Israel - as Jordan and Egypt has - and giving up the "right of return" claim to lands they will never get back. It's truly unfortunate that the people of Gaza and the Palestinians in the West Bank have to contend with such a backwards and hostile group. Israel does exist and it ain't going anywhere.

Post: #68

Hencredible what is your take on the human rights abuses by the Israelis in the occupied territory? The bull dozing of people's homes and villages for the wall, the checkpoints, the poverty, etc?

How about the innocent people who die as an result of Israel's attacks on Hamas? I just heard on the news tonight that 20 civilians have died due to the recent campaign of bombings in Gaza.

It sounds like you are very pro-Israel and I think it's a cop out to say anyone who criticizes Israel is anti-semetic. I also don't see how the occupation of the West Bank is any different than apartheid in South Africa. If a minority group like Mexicans or African-Americans were treated the same way in the U.S., I don't think you'd have the same opinion. What if white extremists took over the government and felt the need to wall in Mexicans and blacks, strip them of their citizenship, force them to cross border checkpoints, cripple them with economic sanctions, etc.? I'm sure you'd be the first to speak out against such treatments.

As for the Israeli Jew and Palestinian friends you write about: "You would think from watching the news that Israelis and Palestinians hated each others guts but here were two men from two different sides, a Muslim and a Jew, who were friends and made money together. That's REAL." That seems like a pretty small sample group to be making assumptions based on, how many other Palestinians did you talk to, did many express happiness with their lives or their situation in the West Bank, did they feel they were treated fairly by the Israelis? Men will often put asides differences for the sake of making money, their own personal economic interests outweighed any other animosities they may have felt.

Finally, what it boils down to is that the area known as Israel was occupied by Arab Palestinians for a thousand years before the Jewish diaspora from Europe began flooding in after WWII. It was wealthy Jews aided by the British government and later the U.S. government that led to the creation of the Jewish homeland. According to this thinking, it would be okay for any ethnic or religious group to invade and take over lands that they inhabited thousands of years ago. Can't you see this logic is flawed?

I believe Israel has a right to exist and exist in peace, but that is no excuse for human right atrocities and killing of innocent civilians in the name of national security. At that point you are just valuing one human life over another, it's like thinking that the 3,000 people that died in the 9-11 attacks was the greatest travesty committed by mankind, but the 300,000 innocent people who died in Iraq don't matter for shit.

Post: #69

(11-17-2012 09:41 PM)OGNorCal707 Wrote:  Hencredible what is your take on the human rights abuses by the Israelis in the occupied territory? The bull dozing of people's homes and villages for the wall, the checkpoints, the poverty, etc?

How about the innocent people who die as an result of Israel's attacks on Hamas? I just heard on the news tonight that 20 civilians have died due to the recent campaign of bombings in Gaza.

It sounds like you are very pro-Israel and I think it's a cop out to say anyone who criticizes Israel is anti-semetic. I also don't see how the occupation of the West Bank is any different than apartheid in South Africa. If a minority group like Mexicans or African-Americans were treated the same way in the U.S., I don't think you'd have the same opinion. What if white extremists took over the government and felt the need to wall in Mexicans and blacks, strip them of their citizenship, force them to cross border checkpoints, cripple them with economic sanctions, etc.? I'm sure you'd be the first to speak out against such treatments.

As for the Israeli Jew and Palestinian friends you write about: "You would think from watching the news that Israelis and Palestinians hated each others guts but here were two men from two different sides, a Muslim and a Jew, who were friends and made money together. That's REAL." That seems like a pretty small sample group to be making assumptions based on, how many other Palestinians did you talk to, did many express happiness with their lives or their situation in the West Bank, did they feel they were treated fairly by the Israelis? Men will often put asides differences for the sake of making money, their own personal economic interests outweighed any other animosities they may have felt.

Finally, what it boils down to is that the area known as Israel was occupied by Arab Palestinians for a thousand years before the Jewish diaspora from Europe began flooding in after WWII. It was wealthy Jews aided by the British government and later the U.S. government that led to the creation of the Jewish homeland. According to this thinking, it would be okay for any ethnic or religious group to invade and take over lands that they inhabited thousands of years ago. Can't you see this logic is flawed?

I believe Israel has a right to exist and exist in peace, but that is no excuse for human right atrocities and killing of innocent civilians in the name of national security. At that point you are just valuing one human life over another, it's like thinking that the 3,000 people that died in the 9-11 attacks was the greatest travesty committed by mankind, but the 300,000 innocent people who died in Iraq don't matter for shit.

I don't even know where to begin with your diatribe OG. It's straight out of wikipedia and not your actual views. You probably haven't been to the Middle East so you don't have any experiences to draw from, just portrayals from the media. As for my first experience in Israel, that's all I was referring to. Of course I've spoken to more Palestinians and Israelis. As I've said in my other posts, the record speaks for itself. Look at the way Israeli Arabs are treated within Israel. No other group of Arabs enjoy a quality of life on that level.

Also, Hamas is responsible for the civilians that have died in Gaza. By continuing fruitless rocket attacks and clinging to conditions that any rational government would know is a pipe dream, they are perpetuating the suffering of their own people. Not only that, but this group is despicable enough to hide behind civilians after launching their rocket attacks.

Israel has taken extraordinary measures to limit the number of civilian casualties. They have sent out text messages to mobile phones and leaflets to the people in Gaza prior to starting their attacks. Their targets are very specific but unfortunately civilians will die. I definitely do not think they are intentional unlike Hamas attacks on Israeli civilians.

This is a picture of Israeli soldiers protecting Gazan children from attacks in the previous war.



There is an extreme double standard when it comes to Israel's conduct. It's as if they have no right to behave the way as other serious nations. The representatives of the Palestinians have refused to come to the table and make real peace with them. The fact is that Israel is a legitimate state. They have made many overtures to creating peace but to no avail. The countries that have made peace with them - Egypt and Jordan - have been better off after making peace than they were before, especially in the case of Jordan. The best way forward for the Palestinians is to make peace with Israel. I guarantee you that their lives would be far better than it is now all on levels. No question.

Post: #70

Religious threads are worse than race threads. What does this have to do with bangin bitches?

Post: #71

If we are truly supposed to be a more enlightened group, the word "antisemitic" should not be used. Here's a little pro tip: Palestinians are Semites as well.

Jews have usurped the word antisemitic much like the feminists have usurped the word creepy. They immediately shout that word and invoke the memories of the Holocaust whenever they are faced with a view that they don't like.

source

I know that posting this picture will cause a shitstorm, but I feel compelled to post it anyway.

Post: #72

(11-17-2012 09:11 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  I encourage everyone to actually visit the Middle East before making up their minds one way or the other. The media information spin is complete bullshit. Don't just go there as a tourist but actually spend time with the people. Talk to not only Arabs but Israelis as well. For me, going to Israel and the Arab countries in the region was a very real and eye-opening experience. Everything I thought I knew was wrong. People in the US think that the media here is pro-Israel but that actually couldn't be farther than the truth.

HC, you must have gotten laid by some hot Israeli chicks, no way you'd be supporting Israel otherwise.

Seriously though, +1 to HC for the very simple act of going somewhere before he talks about it.

- People who write 'data' on a Travel datasheet about a place they've never been get clowned.

- People who talk like they're Schwarzenegger on a bodybuilding thread, only to reveal that they're 6'0" 155 lbs get clowned.

- People who talk like Royce Gracie on a martial arts thread, only to reveal that they've never been in a fight get clowned.

See my point? Respect a first person source. I've got no problem with people expressing an opinion about a geopolitical issue even if they haven't spent time in Israel. But know your place. Pulling a few blog articles and unchecked, unsubstantiated video clips off the internet doesn't make you an expert.

I don't just live here. I've spent years studying the history of this region. Even minored in it in university. Read books written by both sides, even by sworn rivals of Israel (know your enemy).

Show some deference to people who have actually been there, or who at least have put real time into learning something.

@OGNorCal, I understand from your profile that you've never been to Israel. In fact, you haven't been to South Africa either. I live in Israel, and I've traveled through South Africa, spent time with dozens of people from many races, and I've got a few South African friends here in Israel as well. None of them ever had a bad word to say about Israel. They would have been offended by your comparison of the situation in Israel to what they suffered under apartheid. The facts have already been written in this thread, take a few months to learn the subject for yourself.

To summarize, if I'm curious about Russia, I'd ask Russian friends before I'd look on Facebook. If I have a question about fitness, I ask someone in better shape than me, I don't look on Twitter. A question about money, I talk to someone who's made more of it than me. At least read a few books by real experts. You get the idea.

If you ever see me pontificating about the Biafra struggle or dropping data about Malaysia, call me a hypocrite. It won't happen, because I write what I know.

Post: #73

The whole situation with Israel and Palestine is so very sad, perhaps representitive of humanities issues of identifying with race and religion. J. Krishnamurti really said it here:

'WHEN you call yourself an Indian or a Muslim or a Christian or a European, or anything else, you are being violent. Do you see why it is violent? Because you are separating yourself from the rest of mankind. When you separate yourself by belief, by nationality, by tradition, it breeds violence. So a man who is seeking to understand violence does not belong to any country, to any religion, to any political party or partial system; he is concerned with the total understanding of mankind.'

I'd believe in "the holocaust", in the form of systemised extermination of jews in gas chambers, if there was some reliable or concrete evidence for it ever happening at all. However, it just appears to represent "a big lie", a form of war time propoganda.

Post: #74

Enough.

I'll argue geopolitics all day but I won't participate in a discussion with Holocaust deniers.

Ban these assholes tiggaling and teh_skeeze.

Post: #75

(11-17-2012 09:11 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  I just want to say that much of the criticism against Israel is rooted in anti-semitism. This whole moral equivalence stuff is BS.

I can't agree more on this. Particularly true here in France. When my grand-father moved to a suburban town next to Paris he was surprised to see that his friends advised him not to play the cds of his favourite singer (an algerian jew) too loud because the arab neighbours wouldn't appreciate it.

Basically in this country you see tons of guys who know shit about the Near-East say things like "I'm not anti-semitic but Israel has to disappear"... I mean seriously!

It's quite frightening to see dudes living in Western Europe who are not even remotely involved in the conflict slip so easily into racism.