Post: #26

(11-02-2012 12:13 AM)Enigma Wrote:  First hand experience working two different jobs obviously lends to an assessment of which is worse, which is what this discussion is about. A chef just chimed in and agreed that he would rather cook than serve tables.

Actually, the discussion isn't about arriving at the preciseness of which "is worse," but just to say that they're sufficiently comparable--in terms of demands--to raise questions about the unique tipping privileges that waiters enjoy.

(11-02-2012 12:13 AM)Enigma Wrote:  Why are you getting so defensive?

I'm not sure what you're talking about here. I just thought it was funny that my work experience was brought into the discussion. The fallacy that only people who experience something can articulately discuss it is often a passive-aggressive insult or discussion slammer-statement. If you didn't realize that, I'll give you a real-life example.

EXAMPLE

Girl: "I think guys who act like gentlemen are most successful at getting girls."

Tuthmosis: "I'm curious: How many girls have you picked up?"

Post: #27

(11-01-2012 10:20 PM)houston Wrote:  I don't go to restaurants if I can't afford to tip at least a few dollars. I thought that was common sense.

This. If she's short on cash, why the fuck is she spending $138 on a meal?

(11-01-2012 10:50 PM)Tuthmosis Wrote:  -ass, frantic kitchen where they're prone to burning their hands and arms on hot stoves and pans, slipping, and cutting themselves. They have to deal with waiters screaming orders at them and taking shit for correcting the waiters' errors when it was them who said it (or punch it in) wrong in the first place.

The chefs I've met at the restaurant I work in sometimes, and others I know don't take any kind of shit whatsoever from anyone in the place. If a waiter/waitress fucks up an order and it's a busy night they absolutely let loose on them lol.

Post: #28

(11-02-2012 12:28 AM)Tuthmosis Wrote:  

(11-02-2012 12:13 AM)Enigma Wrote:  First hand experience working two different jobs obviously lends to an assessment of which is worse, which is what this discussion is about. A chef just chimed in and agreed that he would rather cook than serve tables.

Actually, the discussion isn't about arriving at the preciseness of which "is worse," but just to say that they're sufficiently comparable--in terms of demands--to raise questions about the unique tipping privileges that waiters enjoy.

(11-02-2012 12:13 AM)Enigma Wrote:  Why are you getting so defensive?

I'm not sure what you're talking about here. I just thought it was funny that my work experience was brought into the discussion. The fallacy that only people who experience something can articulately discuss it is often a passive-aggressive insult or discussion slammer-statement. If you didn't realize that, I'll give you a real-life example.

EXAMPLE

Girl: "I think guys who act like gentlemen are most successful at getting girls."

Tuthmosis: "I'm curious: How many girls have you picked up?"

I interpreted your last couple posts as passive aggressive but it appears I was wrong. I initially thought you had restaurant experience based on your first post and then wasn't sure after reading your subsequent responses. I can see how I could have worded that differently but I was honestly curious to whether you had first-hand knowledge. I don't believe it invalidates your opinion but I've worked in many different restaurants and done everything from dishwashing, making subs, tossing pizzas, expediting, hosting, bussing, serving, etc. In my opinion, that gives myself or someone like thedude a better understanding of what goes on.

They're definitely comparable to an extent but like thedude said, people wouldn't wait tables if there weren't a high potential for income. People actually pay to go to school to be chefs. All the professions are pretty much shit depending on the restaurant but cooking is the only one that is actually respected as a long-term career (as a chef). You can make ridiculous money in the right situation as a server and especially bartender but most people never find that situation and it's not something I want to do forever.

Post: #29

Don't get me wrong...despite the fact that I would never wait tables in a million years, what my guys do in the kitchen, and what I did as a grunt, was 100x harder than any front of house work.

For me, personally, waiting tables is WORSE. It is HELL.

But what I do, is HARDER. Much, much harder.

L.A. is unique in the no tipping thing, up in San Francisco they're allowed to tip out the kitchen and many restaurants frequently do.

Everyone has it hard in the kitchen, but where I agree with Tuth is that waiters typically make disproportionately more money than cooks. I've worked in kitchens where there was a strict rule that servers couldn't count their tips or handle cash in front of cooks. It was seen as disrespectful.

What's worse are fine dining restaurants. They typically pay cooks $10-$11, barely over minimum wage, but servers in those restaurants can make up to $500 a night. That's with cooks working 12 hours and servers working 6.

In the end, all comparisons are done on a case-by-case basis. In the U.S. waiting tables is looked down on but in other parts of the world, especially Europe, it's seen as an actual profession and they make an art of service, especially at the Michelin starred places.

There will always be resentment and seething from the cooks directed at servers. To be cranking out that kind of manual labor, being on your feet for that long, standing in front of a 800 degree wood burning grill, and then you see a couple limp wristed snivelling actors walking by whose parents put them through art school, complaining that this is their 5th shift in a row and they can't wait for their 3 day weekend, better goddamn believe we're gonna give those shitheads a hard time at every turn.

Anyway...

Post: #30

I am more inclined to view tipping in a negative light rather than positive, but of course this woman didn't tip for all the wrong reasons.

I believe tipping is wrong for three main reasons:

1)The waiters are lucky people who get to work in contact with clients who are satisfied from eating and try to show off to their date, so they can receive tips. There are many people who do much more shittier jobs but receive no tips because they have less contact with satisfied show-off people. When was the last time you did tip your thrash remover, your ambulance driver, your hairdresser, your postman, construction workers, the guys who cleaned canalization, guys who repaired water pipes for your city block?

2)Since most waiters are women its just another way how society transfers money from men to women. I never tip women, but I do tip guys sometimes. The girls have many options and betas who will rush to their help, while the guys must struggle alone in this life, plus they are pressured to support women too!

3)Printing a tip on a bill is just absurd.

Post: #31

Some major over reactions in this thread,calling her a bitch for not tipping?!

Firstly the woman is a Brit and we don't have a tipping culture. What we do do more often is round up the bill to the nearest round number. So if the bill is £42.50 I'll give £45 and say keep the change. Tipping a waiter 20-25%% like in the States? Get to fuck. That would mean a £10 tip. Only times I've done that is when I have been flush with cash and have received exceptional service that was above and beyond ( I.e two or three times in my life ).

The woman had every right not to tip since culturally we don't tip in the UK,the only reason it was a story was because she wrote her reason on the bill. We are in a recession,waiters are lucky to have jobs. But,I'm British so my cultural viewpoint is completely different from Americans.

Post: #32

There is no way this is in the UK, the bill looks nothing like what I've ever seen in a restaurant here, most places add a 'Service charge' and never do they have a 'Tip______' section. Also in the article the waiter is apparently paid $2 per hour, that's illegal in this country. We have a minimum wage which is just under $10 per hour. A person paying with a VISA here would also not be signing the bill (only American Express still uses this) we use Chip and PIN.

Gotta laugh at the entitlement expected and the outrage from the 'single mothers' on reddit.

Post: #33

(11-01-2012 10:58 PM)Anon-A-Moose Wrote:  

(11-01-2012 10:09 PM)Walderschmidt Wrote:  A waiter already gets paid to work

A waiter doesn't get paid to work really, that's the problem. He literally is paid in tips. He exchanges his labor for those tips, not a steady paycheck. SHE is supposed to pay him. And if I was him, I'd make sure the next time she came back someone spat in her food or barred her from the restaurant, plus passing her face along to every single other one in town (who would gladly turn her down if she stiffed them on cash).

tl;dr her entitlement > his survival.

I'm not letting her off the hook entirely - I was saying that I agree with what Tuth was saying.

Also - You're cherry picking from my post. I acknowledge the often bad pay of waiters (caused by the expectation of tips I imagine).

"A waiter already gets paid to work (though on the other hand, it's not very much)."

I lived in Europe most my life before I came back to the U.S. so in my experience, waiters get paid an hourly wage which is respectable, at least, compared to the U.S.. Also, depending on where you live, the culture is different (no tipping culture in England for example).

Post: #34

%15-20 tip is too much for someone who just brings the food from the kitchen to your table, the real guy who deserves the tip is the chef IMHO

%5-10 is a good tip.

Anything above %10 is wasting your money.

Post: #35

Quote:Actually, the discussion isn't about arriving at the preciseness of which "is worse," but just to say that they're sufficiently comparable--in terms of demands--to raise questions about the unique tipping privileges that waiters enjoy.

Obviously the primary reason for this is cultural inertia, ideally we'd tip both the waiter and the cook or neither one. But I think the other is that the waiter has the responsibility. If the cook screws up the order or the bartender is slow with the drinks, the waiter is the one who gets shafted. Obviously if the cook is incompetent he'll be fired eventually, but he gets paid by the hour not by the plate.

I've heard it's not uncommon for waiters to share tips with the kitchen staff and bartender as part of maintaining that positive relationship, and I've definitely heard of asshole waiters being fucked over by kitchen staff who didn't like them.

Post: #36

This reminds me of my experience at a Tilted Kilt recently. After dealing with horrible service as long as I could stand, about an hour, I finally called over my server and demanded my bill. When she finally came back with it I made sure to tell her that "tits don't guarantee you a tip" while putting a zero on the tip line.

Looked like she was ready to cry or something.

Post: #37

(11-02-2012 09:32 AM)Hotwheels Wrote:  This reminds me of my experience at a Tilted Kilt recently. After dealing with horrible service as long as I could stand, about an hour, I finally called over my server and demanded my bill. When she finally came back with it I made sure to tell her that "tits don't guarantee you a tip" while putting a zero on the tip line.

Looked like she was ready to cry or something.

I was in one of those places once. The girl was being a bitch, so when she finally came over and asked what I wanted I said, "I like my burgers like I like my women, Black and Blue." Ouch. My burger came out almost raw. I ate it anyway out of spite.

Post: #38

That really doesn't look like a British receipt. In most cases the tip or "service charge" is included in the UK (12 to 15 per cent I think). This is the case for 90% or more of restaurants. If you don't want to pay that you have to ask them to remove it from the bill and bring you a new one. I've only done this once and it was to make a point after receiving egregious service that made a business lunch very awkward.

In any case it's common sense that you should factor in the tip when eating out. It's part of the cost so if you can't afford to tip you can't afford to eat out it's that simple.

Post: #39

(11-02-2012 10:14 AM)Caligula Wrote:  That really doesn't look like a British receipt. In most cases the tip or "service charge" is included in the UK (12 to 15 per cent I think). This is the case for 90% or more of restaurants. If you don't want to pay that you have to ask them to remove it from the bill and bring you a new one. I've only done this once and it was to make a point after receiving egregious service that made a business lunch very awkward.

In any case it's common sense that you should factor in the tip when eating out. It's part of the cost so if you can't afford to tip you can't afford to eat out it's that simple.

You're correct - it isn't.

Also - the article refers to the amount of money as $140.

Post: #40

Wow, no one has posted this yet? allow me.

Post: #41

What I find objectionable is not so much that she didn't tip, but that she used being a single mother as an excuse for it; like EVERYONE in society should automatically give her a pass because she squeezed some unfortunate bastard out of her fishhole.

Post: #42

(11-02-2012 04:47 AM)Mage Wrote:  I am more inclined to view tipping in a negative light rather than positive, but of course this woman didn't tip for all the wrong reasons.

I believe tipping is wrong for three main reasons:

1)The waiters are lucky people who get to work in contact with clients who are satisfied from eating and try to show off to their date, so they can receive tips. There are many people who do much more shittier jobs but receive no tips because they have less contact with satisfied show-off people. When was the last time you did tip your thrash remover, your ambulance driver, your hairdresser, your postman, construction workers, the guys who cleaned canalization, guys who repaired water pipes for your city block?

2)Since most waiters are women its just another way how society transfers money from men to women. I never tip women, but I do tip guys sometimes. The girls have many options and betas who will rush to their help, while the guys must struggle alone in this life, plus they are pressured to support women too!

3)Printing a tip on a bill is just absurd.

Post: #43

(11-02-2012 11:11 AM)Walderschmidt Wrote:  

(11-02-2012 10:14 AM)Caligula Wrote:  That really doesn't look like a British receipt. In most cases the tip or "service charge" is included in the UK (12 to 15 per cent I think). This is the case for 90% or more of restaurants. If you don't want to pay that you have to ask them to remove it from the bill and bring you a new one. I've only done this once and it was to make a point after receiving egregious service that made a business lunch very awkward.

In any case it's common sense that you should factor in the tip when eating out. It's part of the cost so if you can't afford to tip you can't afford to eat out it's that simple.

You're correct - it isn't.

Also - the article refers to the amount of money as $140.

Look at the receipt. There's no denomination symbol in front of the price. The article is from the U.K. and maybe they converted the price so readers wouldn't be confused. The middle letter in MOM could easily be a "u" indicating MUM. We don't use that word in the U.S.

Also, isn't there enough news in the U.K. to report on? I find it hard to believe they are so bored to write up a whole article about a woman's receipt in the U.S.

And the word entitlement is used frequently. Again, U.K. Besides, American waiters don't have time to bitch about something like this. They move onto the next table.

Cheers.

Post: #44

(11-02-2012 03:13 PM)Aliblahba Wrote:  

(11-02-2012 11:11 AM)Walderschmidt Wrote:  

(11-02-2012 10:14 AM)Caligula Wrote:  That really doesn't look like a British receipt. In most cases the tip or "service charge" is included in the UK (12 to 15 per cent I think). This is the case for 90% or more of restaurants. If you don't want to pay that you have to ask them to remove it from the bill and bring you a new one. I've only done this once and it was to make a point after receiving egregious service that made a business lunch very awkward.

In any case it's common sense that you should factor in the tip when eating out. It's part of the cost so if you can't afford to tip you can't afford to eat out it's that simple.

You're correct - it isn't.

Also - the article refers to the amount of money as $140.

Look at the receipt. There's no denomination symbol in front of the price. The article is from the U.K. and maybe they converted the price so readers wouldn't be confused. The middle letter in MOM could easily be a "u" indicating MUM. We don't use that word in the U.S.

Also, isn't there enough news in the U.K. to report on? I find it hard to believe they are so bored to write up a whole article about a woman's receipt in the U.S.

And the word entitlement is used frequently. Again, U.K. Besides, American waiters don't have time to bitch about something like this. They move onto the next table.

Cheers.

This is the source, posted by an American - http://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/12...over_tips/

I don't really care. The Daily Mail is notorious for picking up on non-stories that get a lot of pageviews. It's also one of the most widely read online news sources in the US.

Post: #45

All foreigners pay attention closely. In the US, tipping is so heavily ingrained in our culture that the federal government considers tipping to be a legitimate form of income for people in certain jobs. Therefore, special rules apply when it comes to employees who earn tips. Specifically, they allow restaurants to pay a wage much lower than the standard minimum wage because it is assumed that the tip is the primary form of income for the server. The only reason they are paid any wage at all is because then they can make the server declare a percentage of their sales as income, and the paycheck is used to cover their taxes. It's not uncommon for a server to receive a paycheck for $1 or $2. Many don't get one at all. They just get a check stub that shows their pay and deductions. And whether you get tipped or not, you will pay taxes based on a percentage of your sales. So when you get stiffed, not only do you not make money, you actually lose it. I didn't make the rules, I'm just saying this is how it works.

We can argue about which role is harder but to be honest, you're comparing apples to oranges. The BOH staff have to deal with the physical demands of being in a hot kitchen. The FOH staff have to deal with constant mental abuse from the general public. It's a hell of a mental toll. When you're BOH, you get paid from the moment you clock in and your paycheck arrives every week or two. Your evaluations are done constantly, but nothing is usually said unless you really fuck up. When you're a server, every person you speak with is evaluating you, and their evaluation is based on a number of factors that are outside your control. I was a server for 7 or 8 years in several different places. I maybe got stiffed 20 or 30 times over the course of those 7 or 8 years, so that's not bad. OTOH, shitty tips were an almost daily event. And every shitty tip is like having someone say "fuck you" right to your face, and not jokingly. How many people go to work with the expectation that 3-4 people will them "fuck you" in a hostile manner each and every time they clock in? In all honesty, damn few. Like I said, BOH staff have their own shit to deal with. Brutal heat is the number one issue. And then when they get slammed, they've got to endure the physical heat, while keeping everything straight. It's not easy. But neither are the constant evaluations being done by customers who are pissed off because it rained today and they're on vacation (and they will take that shit out on you.) When you're BOH, your value remains fairly constant. When you're up front at the bar or serving tables, your value is constantly questioned and assessed, even when you know you're damn good at what you do.

But the point isn't about the validity of the practice of tipping or the sense of entitlement of the servers. It's about some bitch who went out and decided to blow $140 on a meal, and then declined to tip, citing that she's a single parent as her excuse. If it's a matter of affordability, maybe she shouldn't be eating out. I would see this shit a lot, especially when I lived in Myrtle Beach where they had a lot of retirees. The mother fuckers would come in and talk about "I live on a fixed income." Yeah bitch, so do I. So do the motherfuckers who work on a salaried basis. So do most motherfuckers who are classified as wage earners.

Eating out at a sit down place is a luxury. But you've got a portion of the general public who thinks it's a right. The next time you think your server doesn't work hard, keep in mind, they're the ones who have to deal with the asshole who thinks this way.

Ome more thing, a lot of servers are fucking liars when it comes to the amount they make. Every place always has a bullshitter who claims to be making $20-$30 or more on every table that comes in. And it's just bullshit. The reason they appear to do so well is because for them, much of their income is not taxed, and every day is payday. But even that's changing thanks to credit/debit/ATM cards. It used to be that you'd hold all of the money you made until you cashed out at the end of the night. Your credit card tips were deducted from the cash you had to turn in at the end of the night. Nowadays, with so many people paying for everything with plastic, and virtually no cash, many restaurants are beginning to hold the credit card tips until payday. That fucking blows because most servers are accustomed to living like low rent drug dealers, and when your tips are held like that, you then get to pay the full amount of income tax on most or all of your income. So the notion of servers making boatloads of cash never really existed, and what did exist is quickly disappearing.

Post: #46

Having worked in Jersey Shore restaurants from age thirteen until my third year of law school, this is a subject which I believe I know something about. First, where and when was it stated that this incident occurred in Great Britain or in a country other than the United States? If it was stated as such, I guess I am blind. If it was not stated, it is mere speculation to state that this did not happen in the United States. Second, I wouldn't be at all surprised if this lady charged the meal on her credit card, paid the tip in cash, and wrote the single mom nonsense as some kind of poor attempt at humor. It is not uncommon for restuarant patrons to pay the check on a credit card and pay the tip in cash.

If this incident occurred in a country where the tip was not included in the check, there may very well have been some serious problems with the service which caused this lady to refuse to tip her server. Why do I say this? Because in my experience, there is a direct relationship between the quality of the service and the satisfaction of the client. A fast and attentive server has high customer satisfaction and an extremely low chance of being undertipped or completely stiffed. It's amazing how more difficult and unhappy customers are when they receive poor service. It is the same thing in my law practice. I may go a year or several years without getting an unhapply client or a client who fails to pay me. Why? Because I pride myself on always being accessible, attentive, and providing clients with the best service I can. Other lawyers I know have angry, dissatisfied, and deadbeat clients every week or even every day. They simply don't provide the same level of attention and service as I do. The same goes in a restaurant. This incident may or may not have happened in England, the tip may or may not have been included, this lady may or may not have paid the tip, and the situation may or may not have been the server's fault.