Post: #26

My inclination would be to give a lot more plausible deniability in the invite back to your place. No matter how hot and heavy the sexual banter and foreplay is, give her bullshit plausible deniability. She isn't coming to your apartment to give you a lapdance; she's coming to see your etchings, or have a drink, or see some home-made videos.

Some girls can be really weird in being of two minds while portraying that they are of one, and will heavily flirt while not yet having made up their mind to fuck. Actually, it's often the case a girl has no idea if she will fuck until she is actually fucking. That's why escalation is such a key skill.

She didn't leave you any real options with her pout. She framed it as a win lose situation, and commanded you to lose. It's your job to get her to be under your thumb, and of course you can't start right in doing it wrong. I like your intuition on this, she was putting you in an impossible spot. I think she knew that too, and agree with Roosh that this was because she wanted an out. She wanted to make you squirm and use the drama as an excuse to change the subject away from imminent sex.

Maybe there could have been some creative solutions that would have worked for the two of you. Wordlessly walk over to her side, open her door, but then physically pick her up with both arms and place her into the chair. Agree and amplify, while taking total dominance of her body.

The spanking suggestions were along that line. But as she had basically insulted you by telling you to be under your command, it might let off a little steam to wrestle with her in that way at this point. Better than verbal wrestling - get things a little more physical and real.

Post: #27

(11-01-2012 08:49 PM)Roosh Wrote:  I had a case like this recently, where the girl basically said "If you did X, I would have fucked you."

Well, American girls aren't that logical with sex. They don't go down a checklist. She realized that she was going too far with the Lady Gaga dance and needed a way out that preserved her hand. So she made up some ridiculous bullshit and then cashed it in for the drama/entertainment you provided her.

In other words, you would not have banged if you opened that door. It wouldn't have made a difference. The only mistake you made was telling her to give you a lap dance at your place. That put too much pressure on her.

First thing that I thought was this. She realised the pressure she'd just put herself under and was looking for a way out.

I think you did a good job. She's chasing you now with the "I will train you" bollocks. Ball's in your court.

Post: #28

Post: #29

I'm sure Roosh is right in that she just wanted an excuse to keep you on the hook for longer.

After "you buy my flowers. I suck your dick. This is how this works." I dont think I would have resisted the temptation to say "to be fair you'd have to suck my dick at the exact same time I'm buying you flowers, trading standards"

Hilarious story. What was she thinking?

Post: #30

(11-02-2012 10:02 AM)XXL Wrote:  

i'm really speechlees how guys get attached to some weird rules even though they clearly don't serve them well.

chick was gaming you. how could you lose respect? it's nonsense. you could have easily noticed her reaction, see you're fucking up and disarm it by opening that damn door, pull her and escalate at your place for the night of love.

LESSON: when the girl likes you and complies when you lead (which was true in your case) then the pull is about not fucking it up aka not saying/doing stupid shit.

you DID stupid shit. you had a girl eager to end up at your place etc but you somehow thought that this door thing would be great moment to remind her again how irreverent bad boy you are (miscalibration), she got defensive, you thought you had to hold the frame no matter what (i bet your ego was screaming "no fucking way, show the bitch who's the boss" even though it was bad decision), she got pissed and game over. it's not lost cause of course. but you know the mistake.

the conclusion is.. BE FLEXIBLE & USE YOUR OWN BRAIN. when one chick is totally digging you but needs to see a hint of gentleman from you, fuck it, show her, what's so humiliating about it? who cares? don't be one of those guys who are so hung up the pu rules. pay atention to the girl instead of the "game". be ready to try different angles. never get attached to one course of action if that can mess things up. so the question is not "should we open car doors?" cause it's always case by case basis. the right question is.. will opening the door in this particular situation help me or not??

Disagree here. People can open their own car doors. Who cares if it "would have worked", I have to actually get up out of my car to open her door for her? It shouldn't be about ego, it should be more about "I don't see why I should have to open someone's door for them when they can do it themselves". Do you want things to be on your own terms or not?

Anyway we all know a girl isn't going to suddenly change her mind about banging you because you didn't open the door for her. It's a symptom of something else.

Post: #31

I hardly even do this, but if I go out of my way to do it (ie walk all the way around the car) they usually will make a point to thank me and they seem surprised (oh! thanks!).

If its appropriate (leaving somewhere and the valet pulls up, we're facing passenger side door), I'll open it and they don't say anything because they are assuming it's going to happen.

Bottom line: Either way, if she's the type that calls you out on not opening it, shrug it off and make her feel ridiculous by forcing her to stay in the car after you've stopped and wait for you to walk all the way around and open it to let her out. Then, of course, smack her ass a little and say "happy now?" or "so how did it feel?".

Post: #32

you should have given her a few test lines during the date to see what type of psycho she was. Then you can adjust your mannerism level based on it. I also keep an eye on how she interacts with others while on the date. Does she say excuse me, thank you to the waiter, use of the word please, etc Based off of that I go in for the kill.

Post: #33

(11-02-2012 07:02 AM)j r Wrote:  I open doors and do most of that other psuedo-chivalrous bullshit. I do it because it helps me keep the frame of "grown ass man" that differentiates me from all the bros and effeminate manginas.

There are certain things that I just do. I open doors, hold out chairs, help her put on her coat, buy the first round (why I pay in cash), sometimes I order for her. I never look for her approval in these things. I don't even acknowledge that I've done anything out of the ordinary.

The tough thing about the OP is that she's calling you on something that you've already done. I think Roosh is right. She probably found herself in too deep and was looking for a way out. You might have been able to continue to overcome her obstacles and eventually gotten the bang that night, but that would have not been the last of them.

This. You're not being beta if you do these things inherently, but if you allow yourself to be "trained" to do them by some woman or are reacting directly to a stimulus, then you're toeing the line.

Post: #34

(11-02-2012 07:02 AM)j r Wrote:  I open doors and do most of that other psuedo-chivalrous bullshit. I do it because it helps me keep the frame of "grown ass man" that differentiates me from all the bros and effeminate manginas.

There are certain things that I just do. I open doors, hold out chairs, help her put on her coat, buy the first round (why I pay in cash), sometimes I order for her. I never look for her approval in these things. I don't even acknowledge that I've done anything out of the ordinary.

Same here.

That is my Game, and it fits with how I act.

Post: #35

(11-02-2012 07:02 AM)j r Wrote:  I open doors and do most of that other psuedo-chivalrous bullshit. I do it because it helps me keep the frame of "grown ass man" that differentiates me from all the bros and effeminate manginas.

There are certain things that I just do. I open doors, hold out chairs, help her put on her coat, buy the first round (why I pay in cash), sometimes I order for her. I never look for her approval in these things. I don't even acknowledge that I've done anything out of the ordinary.

exactly. devil is in the details. it's the little things

as for "on your own terms or not?" it's not even about your/her terms dilemma. it's about feeling the vibe and understanding social context. it's like when you choose to not smoke weed. and one time you end up with a group of hot girls who all start smoking and pass you the blunt. when you start bitching about your own tems cause "you don't see why you should smoke this shit with them too to be a part of the group when they can do it themselves" you're an idiot. you kill the vibe of the party. you alienate don't do it. just take a puff cough couch cough have a laugh and pass it on. it won't do anything bad.

but that's just me

Post: #36

The real move was opening the door without her having to bring it up. Opening car doors for women offers you two possible positive things. First you get a chance to escalate/kiss. Second you get a chance to see what kind of person she is. If you don't have a keyless remote then you see if she unlocks your door once she is inside the car as you walk around to the drivers side (think that tip came from A Bronx Tale).

You should also open building doors for women. Argue the "alpha" merits of it all you like, but its the best way I know of to inconspicuously check out her ass while still looking like a gentleman.


I wouldn't be surprised if she thinks you are a latent homosexual for being more worried about arguing over a door than possibly getting laid, b/c that was my first thought.

Post: #37

(11-02-2012 05:08 PM)snoop Wrote:  The real move was opening the door without her having to bring it up. Opening car doors for women offers you two possible positive things. First you get a chance to escalate/kiss. Second you get a chance to see what kind of person she is. If you don't have a keyless remote then you see if she unlocks your door once she is inside the car as you walk around to the drivers side (think that tip came from A Bronx Tale).

You should also open building doors for women. Argue the "alpha" merits of it all you like, but its the best way I know of to inconspicuously check out her ass while still looking like a gentleman.


I wouldn't be surprised if she thinks you are a latent homosexual for being more worried about arguing over a door than possibly getting laid, b/c that was my first thought.

It it is a good test.

Plus you can grab her *ss when you help her in.

Spin it positive.

There is way too much negative thinking in the whole "pua world"

Post: #38

(11-02-2012 03:33 PM)XXL Wrote:  

(11-02-2012 07:02 AM)j r Wrote:  I open doors and do most of that other psuedo-chivalrous bullshit. I do it because it helps me keep the frame of "grown ass man" that differentiates me from all the bros and effeminate manginas.

There are certain things that I just do. I open doors, hold out chairs, help her put on her coat, buy the first round (why I pay in cash), sometimes I order for her. I never look for her approval in these things. I don't even acknowledge that I've done anything out of the ordinary.

exactly. devil is in the details. it's the little things

as for "on your own terms or not?" it's not even about your/her terms dilemma. it's about feeling the vibe and understanding social context. it's like when you choose to not smoke weed. and one time you end up with a group of hot girls who all start smoking and pass you the blunt. when you start bitching about your own tems cause "you don't see why you should smoke this shit with them too to be a part of the group when they can do it themselves" you're an idiot. you kill the vibe of the party. you alienate don't do it. just take a puff cough couch cough have a laugh and pass it on. it won't do anything bad.

but that's just me

So you should submit yourself to the social context - fuck what you really want to do, you should be thinking about what's "appropriate". I thought there was something called 'abundance mentality' where if the girl doesn't like you as you are then the next one will?

I get your example about the blunt, but still who gives a shit if you're a vibe killer? Why should I have to subordinate myself to the group interest? What if the group interest is everyone taking a dildo up the ass, should I still do it then? Hey man it's only a piece of plastic, if you don't do it youre a party pooper and an idiot. Whilst we're at it, imagine we're jn 1930s Germany. Let's all shout abuse at those Jews across the road, let's trash their shops. Don't be a fucking pussy man, if you don't do it you cant be our friend anymore. Frida or Agnes won't sleep with you, they think you're a loser now.

At virtually all levels, ignoring your own conception of what you want and what you stand for just to be part of a group or get the approval of someone else is a poor way of going about life in general - I thought game was about getting the options so you wouldn't have to do this in order to get laid. In fact I think that the best thing about the whole "manosphere" is that it encourages men to reflect about what they want out of life ignoring what other people tell them to want in order to be a 'real man' or a 'worthy member of society'. And if you do want to hold car doors open for women, do it. But do it because it's what you think is the right thing to do, not because you need the approval of someone else.

On another note, it looks like the concepts of 'setting yourself apart from the approval-seeking manginas' and 'frame control' have gone down the drain too.

No offence intended by any means, but perhaps we are just different.

Post: #39

(11-02-2012 01:23 PM)Ramon Zarate Wrote:  Anyway we all know a girl isn't going to suddenly change her mind about banging you because you didn't open the door for her. It's a symptom of something else.

Disagree in many instances. Sometimes there are just actions or something that someone says (that someone being a person who you thought you was cool) where everything turns cold.

Now, it's SILLY as hell that something like opening a car door could have flipped that cold off-switch, but it's entirely a possibility.

It's all about the good vibes. You know, promote that good, fun vibe and FUA (fuck up avoidance) by NOT killing the vibe. And if the girl has a car-door hangup, it may very well kill that good vibe either temporarily or for-good. Understanding social interactions to this degree is both really cool and both really upsetting at the same time, for some reason the more I open my mind to this, both the cooler and more upsetting it becomes.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

Post: #40

(11-02-2012 03:33 PM)XXL Wrote:  it's like when you choose to not smoke weed. and one time you end up with a group of hot girls who all start smoking and pass you the blunt. when you start bitching about your own tems cause "you don't see why you should smoke this shit with them too to be a part of the group when they can do it themselves" you're an idiot. you kill the vibe of the party. you alienate don't do it. just take a puff cough couch cough have a laugh and pass it on. it won't do anything bad.

YES YES YES, it's about being cool.

The whole weed thing happened to me SO MANY TIMES. I hate weed man, probably the one drug I hate the feeling it gives me (yes, strange). I would end up in so many situations like this and just totally kill the vibe and kill my chances of getting laid.

Now, I do a pretend puff and it's all good, and I didn't ruin the vibe, and I'm cool in the context of the immediate social group.

You got to be cool. Cool is different in every social group's mind, and both the tricky and fun part is figuring out what they think is cool and playing that cool role.

Post: #41

This isn't even a beta issue, in my mind. Around 80 to 90% of my lays are ONS or on the first "date" (always just drinks). I almost ALWAYS open the door for a girl that I want to bang. I've had ex girlfriends hunt me down to fuck me while they were seeing someone else, and many came out bluntly saying, "He doesn't even open the door for me". I ruin these bitches for life, because like the one I just mentioned, I used to fuck her on the hood of my car in a deserted subdivision and come on her ass, but I always opened the door. If you don't understand how strong that comes across, to beat it up in the woods, but hold her hand while she tries to put her shoes back on, then you need to think about it more.

If you're already a selfish asshole by nature (to women), then there's nothing wrong with showing class, which is all you are doing by opening a door. Oh course, my hands are always on her and that ass will get a little pop after the door opens. Personally, I was raised this way, and I don't feel right not opening her door unless I'm proving a point. I like the traditional roles and I reward women that play by theirs'. It has never cost me a lay or even delayed one. In fact, I'm sure it made many lays come faster and easier. Just don't fuck it up by buying dinners and flowers. Unfortunately, once you fucked up by not opening the door, giving into her demand would only make you look worse. You jolted her out of her fantasy land.

Not trying to diss, but your comments appear like your trying hard to "be hard". Like it was mentioned in one of the threads about Russian men, real "alpha" is being so confident in yourself that you don't have to think about how every line sounds or "Is this beta?"TM G-man. Women can pick up pretty easily if you're being yourself, or trying to appear a certain way. I'm genuinely an asshole, but I'm also generous (at times) and I will fuck her best friend while she sleeps in the same bed (same girl as above).

It's like the other day, I'm taking shots in a bar. I'm on a first date with this girl. My buddy shows up and I grab us all one. I come back to toast and see a guy I know sitting in a wheelchair by himself. Without thinking, I walk back to the bar, grab an extra plastic shot cup and pour some of each shot into it. Walk up, smile, and say cheers bro. I didn't do this to impress anyone. It was automatic. I walk back over to the girl and I can't even describe the look on her face. I was inside her about 45 minutes later.

Good move with the Comedy on the first date and solid work getting her to agree to come back to your place. Just keep selling her the dream next time.

Post: #42

Why in the fuck is this so hard to figure out?

If he was at his door and she was at hers fuck her.

If he was with her open the fucking door.

A man opens the door.

A man does not open the door when some broad demands the door opened.

Is that hard to figure out?

Post: #43

I had a slightly mental left wing vegan type I went on one date with, after that she would keep texting me saying she liked me blah blah. But kept on saying this im looking for a gentleman shit all the time, in one of texts back i managed to put in, as i knew it would piss her off; yes im looking for a lady, never heard from her again after that. Make no mistake gentlemen there are many many crazy women out there, much more so than there are normal.

Post: #44

(11-01-2012 08:18 PM)GoodTimer Wrote:  Her: If I need to train you...
Her: I will. But you will open the god damn door.

i raged

Post: #45

(11-02-2012 10:02 AM)XXL Wrote:  

i'm really speechlees how guys get attached to some weird rules even though they clearly don't serve them well.

chick was gaming you. how could you lose respect? it's nonsense. you could have easily noticed her reaction, see you're fucking up and disarm it by opening that damn door, pull her and escalate at your place for the night of love.

LESSON: when the girl likes you and complies when you lead (which was true in your case) then the pull is about not fucking it up aka not saying/doing stupid shit.

you DID stupid shit. you had a girl eager to end up at your place etc but you somehow thought that this door thing would be great moment to remind her again how irreverent bad boy you are (miscalibration), she got defensive, you thought you had to hold the frame no matter what (i bet your ego was screaming "no fucking way, show the bitch who's the boss" even though it was bad decision), she got pissed and game over. it's not lost cause of course. but you know the mistake.

the conclusion is.. BE FLEXIBLE & USE YOUR OWN BRAIN. when one chick is totally digging you but needs to see a hint of gentleman from you, fuck it, show her, what's so humiliating about it? who cares? don't be one of those guys who are so hung up the pu rules. pay atention to the girl instead of the "game". be ready to try different angles. never get attached to one course of action if that can mess things up. so the question is not "should we open car doors?" cause it's always case by case basis. the right question is.. will opening the door in this particular situation help me or not??

I think we may have a cultural problem here and where you live may be totally different to where most of us live. American and english women dont like weak men or men that are submissive to their orders, you following orders when she demands you to do something will mean that you wont get laid because she already know you aint G enough to handle yourself. Getting laid is not like winning the lotto, i dont care how hot the bitch is, she tells me to open her door, im telling her to fuck off (i may do it sarchastically so i can still get the bang). I am glad the OP handled things like he did, the reason why many girls have high bitch shields is because most men treat pussy as if it was the end of the world. A guy who has lots of options in terms of pussy is not concerned about losing a bang and this makes him high value. Dont kiss girls ass, period.

(11-03-2012 02:10 AM)Hotwheels Wrote:  Why in the fuck is this so hard to figure out?

If he was at his door and she was at hers fuck her.

If he was with her open the fucking door.

A man opens the door.

A man does not open the door when some broad demands the door opened.

Is that hard to figure out?

exactly

Post: #46

i really like how this thread distinguishes boys from men.

my take on it.. of course it's great you have personal boundaries/values which you want to stick to. congrats. but other side of the coin is to be able to see that at times some of your New Year's resolutions stand in your way of getting something you want at a time. to me the best thing is to stick to your shit as long as you can and make a little exceptions here and there if that's what will bring something positive.

i've been that uptight dude. i know how it's like. it's super fucking lame. now i think it's hilarious to be so stiff. with girls i always try to do my best to get away with not drinking and i push it to the limit but when i notice my boundaries limit me in specific sitaution i bend a bit. like for example i drink VERY rarely. but if i hang out with Smitty, fuck it, we will have shots.

as for door thing, i don't really know what's so bad about it. if you think good manners make you less cool then you have deeper issues to work on.

Post: #47

I was vending my wares at a music festival when some self confessed band groupie slut started flirting with me. We wound up naked that night in my tent, when things got strange. She said "You're not getting any unless you beg."

"What?"

"Beg for it."

I wanted to fuck her. We were already naked and I was inches away. But the words just wouldn't come out. It was just too ridiculous. Not going to happen.

I just acted as if she hadn't said that and fucked her anyway.

The next day she was acting all cold. As if I'd somehow under-performed, or insulted her, or who cares what.

That was about 16 years ago, and I had no concept of a shit test or of a masculine dominant frame. Sometimes you don't even need the concepts - you're body just won't submit to a woman like that. Not going to happen.

The WAY that girl wanted him to open the door was basically saying "I'll let you fuck me, but you have to beg for it first." Which is a lose lose situation.

Post: #48

(11-01-2012 08:18 PM)GoodTimer Wrote:  Her: I am the woman.
Her: You are the man.
Her: You need to open the door
Her: You buy my flowers.
Her: I suck your dick. This is how this works.
Her: Wasn't trying to make it weird you could have been a gentleman.
Her: Ya know. You're cute. I had a good time. Simple gesture goes a long way...

"Nah"

The courtesy of Roissy

Post: #49

Edit: double post

Post: #50

(11-03-2012 06:00 AM)XXL Wrote:  i really like how this thread distinguishes boys from men.

my take on it.. of course it's great you have personal boundaries/values which you want to stick to. congrats. but other side of the coin is to be able to see that at times some of your New Year's resolutions stand in your way of getting something you want at a time. to me the best thing is to stick to your shit as long as you can and make a little exceptions here and there if that's what will bring something positive.

i've been that uptight dude. i know how it's like. it's super fucking lame. now i think it's hilarious to be so stiff. with girls i always try to do my best to get away with not drinking and i push it to the limit but when i notice my boundaries limit me in specific sitaution i bend a bit. like for example i drink VERY rarely. but if i hang out with Smitty, fuck it, we will have shots.

as for door thing, i don't really know what's so bad about it. if you think good manners make you less cool then you have deeper issues to work on.

Looks like I'm being insulted. Oh well. I must be an uptight non-real man with issues.

I never said that "having manners makes you less cool". I'm not saying anything about coolness. It can be debated whether closing the door is an example of good manners, or whether having these kids of manners are relevant any more, but it's pointless to have this debate here. My argument is that sticking to your principles is a great thing and the right thing to do in these kinds of cases.

With regard to the "little exceptions here and there" - when are you actually sticking to your principles when every time those principles are called into question you make an exception? Easy to stick to your principles when there's no potential cost.