Sabra
Banned
Posts: 206
Joined: Jul 2012
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RE: Another reason to vote the Romney Ryan ticket
I'm gonna reply briefly to this, and leave it at that so we don't derail the thread. Would suggest that if you want to continue the topic, we take it to PM.
See comments below in italics.
(10-23-2012 02:28 PM)kosko Wrote: (10-23-2012 04:15 AM)Sabra Wrote: (10-22-2012 10:36 PM)LoveBug Wrote: Its tough for me to watch these foreign debates for two reasons
1. Apparently Israel's safety has become our safety.. Iran threatenng Israel means Iran is threatening us.. Watching these two leaders grovel over who bends over more for this nation is embarassing.
2. We aren't the world police. Anything outside of our borders that doesn't threaten our national safety or vital economic interests is none of our business
As an Israeli and American I can understand your comment. Israel may be getting a disproportionate amount of coverage in this election, partly due to Netanyahu's meddling. But supporting the US's only ally and trusted military / intelligence partner in the region isn't a bad thing.
Don't underestimate the consequence of Iran getting a nuke. Iran's leadership hates the US about as much as they hate Israel. This is a country that openly supports Islamic terrorist groups.
Letting them get a nuke will result in another loose cannon in the area, just like Pakistan or N Korea, which the US will have to treat with kiddie gloves. It also may set off a nuclear arms race in the middle east (keep in mind that many of the Arab countries hate or distrust the Iranians as well, and won't let them be the only Muslim country in the area with a nuke).
Basically, this issue requires international intervention. 'stay the hell out' may be the right policy in some cases, but sometimes, as in Afghanistan, the US isn't left with much choice. Better to try to avoid reaching that situation rather than being forced into it and needing to respond
You fail to understand the chess of Geo-politics. Iran with a nuke means more safety for the region and Israel. They will never use it.
Pretty easy to say when you're not the target. You're suggesting a replay of MAD, mutually assured destruction, but with two very differently sized and motivated players.
North Korea? Is a puppet of China. They mirror Chinese end goals. They can't even keep the lights on and you expect them to pull of a stunt like that? No aid from China means North Korea starves and has no power. They are past being Reactionary and now are just trying to survive. Korea would be used as a decoy/proxy if shit ever popped of.
Agreed. I don't know what you meant by "and you expect them to pull of a stunt like that". I don't expect them to pull off any stunt. It's an example of a country getting a nuke, and using it against the US's interests (i.e. selling nuke secrets to other enemy states/groups).
Pakistan is a USA puppet. Both double cross each other constantly. It is like a bad marriage but one the USA tries to maintain to hedge India vs Pakistan against each other and keep them from allying with Russia-China.
Also true. Again, a country that got the bomb against the US's wishes, and now we're stuck propping up a weak central gov't surrounded by feuding tribes and Islamist terrorists, just to make sure they don't get control of the Pakistani weapons cache.
Whom honestly thinks Iran would strike Israel with the USA standing right behind it. They would both pound it to the stone age and kill every Iranian within a 100 mile radius of Tehran. Israel would use one of its 50-100 nukes and hammer down on Iran so hard, so fuking hard. You honestly would think they are that dumb to slit thier own necks? Where would the mullahs hide when nukes rain down on them? Get real.
Maybe you're right. Maybe you're not. Again, hard to count on that when you're the target. This assumes that Iran will act completely rationally, as the US and Russia ultimately did in the Cold War (barely). Can we count on Iran acting rationally? Again, maybe. But maybe a government willing to dispassionately slay thousands of its own citizens at the first sign of an uprise is not a 'rational actor' as the West understands it.
Iran talks heavy because it knows that any move on it (first strike) would open a multi-directional can of worms that the USA could not contain:
Shipping lanes would close
US could contain this.
Oil skyrockets
Oil would increase somewhat, but much of the West has already diverged itself of most Iranian oil.
The sitting ducks of USA troops all stationed around Iran would become target practice.
True. There would be the fear of terrorist strikes against US troops, similar to in Lebanon years ago.
Navel fleet attacks left and right.
Same as above
Rockets into Israeli Cities.
Unquestionably
Uprisings all over the Shi'a Crescent. With back pressure on the borders and fringes of: Egypt, FSU/Russia, Turkey, Pakistan, Israel (3 of whom have nukes).
A little late for this, in light of the 'Arab Spring' already under way. And not certain that this would happen in a big sense either. May depend on the size of a foreign strike in Iran - a surgical air strike similar to what allegedly happened in Syria might not have this effect.
The protection of economic/military interests. Of these nations: Pakistan, India (both USA proxies); China, Russia via SCO would mean something would have to transpire to Proctect their heavy investments in Iran.
Not sure what you're getting at here. None of these countries would directly intervene militarily on behalf of Iran.
None of this shit helps America. It would be like a box of birds being cracked open and trying to get then back in the box. Good luck.
Same with letting Iran get the bomb. Like I said before, this could set off a regional arms race. Iraq is really an example of this. The US did not understand that Iran and Iraq are mortal enemies, and invading Iraq would only strengthen Iran.
This is all worse to the USA, 100% Israel is fortified and could care less if the rest of the world burns into rubble. It's Cities being shelled would be its price payed for the complete destruction of the region around it (The British used to call it "the cost/price of Empire"). In Israel's radical right wing this is thier warped version of peace.
This is where I lost you. Completely wrong, you're just way off point.
This is why the top brass of the Army warn against it, and why any President whom is trying to push for it (war with Iran) is simply a whore to Tel Aviv and has zero interests in helping American interests. Because it has no *real* net benefit to America (*there is a undercurrent of short economic gains made to the USD$ due to explosive oil prices*).
I explained the geopolitical benefit of preventing Iran from obtaining a bomb previously.
And to mirror what I said with Romney (a top level Mormon) wanting to plunge the USA into the depths of hell - which is what a war with Iran would do - because it would (eventually in time) 100% lead to WWIII... 100%. Romney is giving the war hungry neo-cons the keys to the Foreign Policy file, while Obama is a whore to Big-Bank and Israeli money. America is somewhat fucked regardless but at least Obama has to pretend he is on the Left and has to dance around the whole Iran situation - Proxy wars would continue.
You've got a long way to go to show how this will lead to WW3. Did the alleged strike at Syria's nuke facility lead to WW3? There were people making the same arguments as you make back then, but it didn't pan out that way.
A world war in which Men aka You and Me are the main victims. War as a feminine trope feasts and targets Males, hundreds of millions of us would be killed...with our children left to suffer. I can't fuking support that.
Fair enough. I'm not supporting war. I'm supporting the West's (led by the US) support for Israel NOW, before a war is necessary, in preventing Iran from obtaining a bomb, without force if at all possible.
Back to less alarming talk.
The Iran vs Israel debate is simply that Israel wants to be the only power in the region. It does not want to be forced to have legitimate diplomatic dialogue with a nation that would be an equal. Israel runs on a hamster wheel so fuking large it does not want have to look in the mirror and conduct itself rationally at the table of diplomacy.
You don't understand Israel at all. A nation the size of New Jersey, founded in the shadow of the Holocaust. Being threatened by a nation 100 times its size, who openly denies the Holocaust and threatens to wipe Israel off the map. Who would blame us for defending ourselves? Or our allies for having our backs.
You have top level people like Gates and Patraues calling that a war with Iran serves the USA no good.
Fair enough. Again, no one's looking for a war. And in the aftermath of the huge mistake of invading Iraq (which most generals supported), not surprising that there's a rise in isolationism in the States. But that doesn't always work, and sometimes devolves into appeasement, a la WWII.
A strike on Iran is not needed.
&
Nobody is going to fuck with Israel.
Certainly hope you're right.
It's enemies are its own creation that all Reactionary States produce. Israel's greatest threat to itself... is itself. All Reactionary States crumble from within due to its own paranoia. History always repeats itself. Israel is on a path to destroy itself from within just like the other domimant reactionary State: America. So much talk on outside threats that don't exist when internally both economies are crumbling, and it's citizens standards of life slowly dwindling.
Again, this is just an out of line, incorrect rant.
This is when massive war budgets must be trimmed. But this never happens in a Reactionary State as they simply just justify the war budgets by turning the war machine onto its own people (USA examples: Patriot Act, NDAA, etc).
I have my own views on Israel obviously in which I believe it is trying to hedge shit to eventually fuck over the USA for its own gains (As I said Israel cares not if the whole globe lays in ruins as long as their borders are held, and goals achieved).
Right, clearly Israel has a lot to gain by screwing over its strongest ally. Ridiculous, have nothing to say to this.
But regardless of my views there will have to a fork in the road moment when the cord is cut between the two. There will have to a point where one side finds it toxic or a suicide mission to go through with whatever the mission the other side proposes may be at that time. We are far from that scenario (I hope) but it is one that will eventually have to happen in time.[/i]
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