Post: #1

Some guys use weaselly manipulation game. For example, one repeated opener was asking directions. This is dishonest and potentially creepy. It displays a bad stalker mindset that you can trick women into talking to you and eventually sleeping with you.

I don't deny game. But almost all my online bangs came from women messaging me first. I had wickedly clever openers, funny lines, pictures, links, etc. Ultimately I wasted time messaging, cajoling numbers from reluctant flakers, or meeting bored women who weren't terribly interested. I should have focussed on screening women who were interested instead of trying to change womens' minds.

Sometimes when I rushed the bang, we lost touch. I feel like I conveyed too much needy, desperate, manipulation. If I had calibrated and held back for five minutes, an hour, or another date then they might have been intrigued and chased me.

It's tricky though. Tuthomosis wrote in the excellent thread "Is the Second Date Dead" that he goes for the bang because girls are so flaky. You don't get punished for sexual aggression. But you do get punished for neediness. That is the distinction.

Where do we draw the line? Game itself is manipulative in the sense that we are trying to affect an outcome. Roosh had an excellent post on Direct versus Indirect Game that explained why you need a balance. His "pet store" opener isn't completely genuine, but it is really probing mutual interests. Roosh has written that you should not be ashamed to meet a previous bang. He reports occasional exceptions where he mutually ignored a date on the street. Roosh has lines for overcoming objections or for getting into a woman's apartment. But for the most part, successful guys do not manipulate women into doing anything the women don't want to do. Instead they get women to want them.

Tuthmosis's date recipe was largely built on logistics conducive to seduction (clean apartment and alcohol). Still, many of Roosh and Tuthmosis's dates do not anticipate the engineered outcome. To what extent are deception and manipulation an effective part of game?

Post: #2

I like Sasha's approach: say whatever comes to your mind.

Post: #3

Fuck that, tricking people is fun.

Post: #4

this will most likely be one big circle jerk thread cause look.. everything we say to girls is a line in a sense. cause unless you tell the girl from the get go "hey i like you let's go fuck" you are dishonest and manipulative.

all of the strategies are meant to present yourself to the girl in best way and give you a chance, set one foot in the door, give you extra time, give her opportunity to meet you, etc. they are tools in your toolbox.

girls know that. they expect you to figure it out, seduce them and make it happen. next time you pull a girl tell her how exactly how you did it afterwards. she won't be shocked, she'll tell you something like "i knew it was bullshit but you were so blablabla..". they KNOW that. that's why it's called game, both of you play it.

don't buy into that james bond 007 shit.. smooth sailing, smooth talking, smooth pulling, smooth criminal game. it's BS. it happens from time to time when you happen to be in the perfect place and time but for the most part game is messy. successful guys PUSH HARD FOR THE CLOSE. abc baby, abc for the win. they don't just seduce seduce seduce do nothing and magically end up in the bedroom. they take charge and lead.

Post: #5

I don't normally lie to girls, because I like to cultivate strong, non-monogamous relationships with them. If I was more into ONSs then I probably would lie a lot more.

That said, if I get into a situation where I could get caught out, I will mercilessly lie and manipulate my way to safety.

Post: #6

(09-19-2012 09:57 AM)Divorco Wrote:  To what extent are deception and manipulation an effective part of game?

Post: #7

(09-19-2012 09:57 AM)Divorco Wrote:  This is dishonest and potentially creepy. It displays a bad stalker mindset....

But almost all my online bangs came from women messaging me first.

Sometimes when I rushed the bang, we lost touch..

Goddamn first poop troll, now self-righteous troll...get tha fuck outta here

Post: #8

there is no real me: only an entity, something illusory. And though I can hide my cold gaze, and you can shake my hand and feel flesh gripping yours and maybe you can even sense our lifestyles are probably comparable... I simply am not there.

Post: #9

What guy uses the term "weaselly"?

Post: #10

"But for the most part, successful guys do not manipulate women into doing anything the women don't want to do. Instead they get women to want them."

Game denialist troll?

Women reward weasel game. Roosh's experiences, as well as mine, attest to that. They don't get mad that you ran weasel game - they actually respect you, for reaching the vaginal summit where many men failed. So why should I have any remorse? I can't remember many girls getting mad at my weasel game, certainly not in the moment.

Post: #11

My game:


Go house to house pretending like my pet weasel has cancer and I'm out collecting donations to cure him.

When a girl answers the door, I spit my opener and fuck her.


Go to the mall and game girls. When a cock blocker tries to warn her friends that I'm a player, I throw weasels at her.

When the cock block runs off I fuck my targeted girl.


Take a girl back to her house and I ask if I can stay the night since my place is infested with weasels.

When she agrees I fuck her.


Cook's game: 10/10 weasels.

Post: #12

He waited until almost 100 posts to pull out his troll.

The trolls, like cock roaches, are evolving.

Post: #13

(09-19-2012 03:26 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  He waited until almost 100 posts to pull out his troll.

The trolls, like cock roaches, are evolving.

He's not a troll. I know him personally. He should really explain some of the things he experienced that he doesn't understand why they happened. Also he's an LTR guy not so much into what most of us are doing. He can explain himself

Post: #14

lolol man ***** you make the best fake troll threads. I agree with mech, you need to include more backstory so people understand where you are coming from. That said, I try to be genuine most of the time, but I'm not going to lose sleep because I lied about parts of my job or skillset to get the bang.

Post: #15

I don't consider this a troll post.

Every man has to set his own ethical standards, and in some ways it's a little fucked to engineer a social experience with canned lines and pre-planned approaches just so you can get your dick wet. I can see why dishonesty, pushiness, manipulation, or numbers-game repetitiveness would seem disingenuous and weaselly.

I think anyone who is lying about his own lifestyle, job, etc, is reifying his perception of his own inadequacy. I would feel like shit if I were so mundane that I needed to hype myself up by lying. Dressing flashily is one thing, but the second that I lie about who I am, there is a part of my actual being that loses a connection to whatever experience it is that I seek.

Post: #16

(09-19-2012 11:09 AM)XXL Wrote:  don't buy into that james bond 007 shit.. smooth sailing, smooth talking, smooth pulling, smooth criminal game. it's BS. it happens from time to time when you happen to be in the perfect place and time but for the most part game is messy. successful guys PUSH HARD FOR THE CLOSE. abc baby, abc for the win. they don't just seduce seduce seduce do nothing and magically end up in the bedroom. they take charge and lead.

so fucking true. once you get it into your head that being in control of the situation with a girl is your responsibility and your responsibility alone, and that they need/want/lust after a man who is aggressive the game becomes much less mystifying.

some might say that makes you a weasel, i say it makes you blue pill.

Post: #17

(09-19-2012 01:46 PM)IVth_Element Wrote:  self-righteous troll...get tha fuck outta here

(09-19-2012 05:42 PM)polymath Wrote:  Every man has to set his own ethical standards

I borrowed the term "weasel game" from Roosh and am not being pejorative. Let me rephrase and give context.

What is the difference between effective and ineffective weasel game?

In one thread, a college girl literally called the cops on a weaselly guy who repeatedly approached with a weak, forced opener (asking directions). In a linked thread, a similar guy admitted he had been effective at phone marketing, but also had a high rate of order cancellations. The parallel is that if you cajole, manipulate, and coerce women, then you generate a lot of flaky numbers and dates. It sucks to get immediate rejections, but it is even worse to waste future time on texts and dates that go nowhere.

Unfortunately I became too clever and entertaining, too nonthreatening online, and too convivial. So attention whores wasted my time with endless message exchanges, flaky numbers, and dinner whore dates that went nowhere. On dead nights I went on convenient dates with crappy logistics so I could at least feel like I was working on my love life. But that backfired, because a date without escalation reverses momentum. It dampens vagina tingles and sexual expectations. Instead of making progress on the subsequent date, I actually lost ground.

In some cases I managed to reschedule flaked dates. I was happy to "recover". But it was temporary. In almost all cases, these rescheduled women put up more resistence than fresh dates. The point is that screening and qualifying is important. My best progress came when I was upfront about my sexual interest.

At the same time there are social conventions where you can't be too direct. Women are intuitive; they can sense when you are lying out of neediness, seeking approval, or cowardly hiding your real intentions. I think "social lies" are okay, like saying that babies and brides are beautiful. It is also okay to lie to remove a logistical or psychological obstacle. This enables her to do what she wants to do. But you should not lie to seek approval or mask your sexual intent.

Examples:

"Where is the student union?" (Bad, because she is coerced to help a stranger who probably knows where it is.)
"Where is a pet store?" (Better, because she can plead ignorance or choose to pursue an interaction.)
"You look like you're having fun." (Better - at worst a social lie.).

"Your cockblocking friend can take this cab and we'll follow in the next one." (Good, because it gives her plausible deniability to remove the obstacle.)
"I don't mind if your friend comes along." (Double bad, because if kills logistics and seeks approval.)

In sum, effective weaselling uses subterfuge to eliminate external psychological and logistical obstacles. Bad weaselling hides your internal intent or personality. Women despise this weakness and lack of authenticity.

Post: #18

@Divorco

Sorry for calling you a troll earlier man, I just thought that the post sounded a little fishy.

Anyway, in real life my game isn't terribly weaselly, the only too weasel moves I ever do are ask to use the bathroom and fabricate excuses for why I approached or why we should go on an insta-date.

And, once again, I apologize for calling you a troll and making fun of your thread. Won't happen again.

Post: #19

Dudes who think guys are manipulative have obviously forgotten a lot about their high school years. If anything game is just a personal testament that you aren't gonna be knocked down by HER manipulative nature.

Post: #20

Asking for directions is not manipulative.Manipulative is promising.Promising marriage,job,visa,fame etc.Many guys do it and get the chicks eat it.On the other hand many women are manipulative in the sense of promising sex and not delivering.It is a balance everyone asks for sth beforehand to close the deal(paying for date before giving job,get a handjob before sex etc).

Post: #21

(09-20-2012 01:55 AM)Greek kamaki Wrote:  Asking for directions is not manipulative.Manipulative is promising.Promising marriage,job,visa,fame etc.Many guys do it and get the chicks eat it.On the other hand many women are manipulative in the sense of promising sex and not delivering.It is a balance everyone asks for sth beforehand to close the deal(paying for date before giving job,get a handjob before sex etc).

This is true. When girls have huge expectations for the relationship and have that taken away from them, it's much worse than getting "tricked" with asking for directions. The girl practically has a meltdown.

Post: #22

(09-19-2012 09:57 AM)Divorco Wrote:  Some guys use weaselly manipulation game. For example, one repeated opener was asking directions. This is dishonest and potentially creepy. It displays a bad stalker mindset that you can trick women into talking to you and eventually sleeping with you.

I don't deny game. But almost all my online bangs came from women messaging me first. I had wickedly clever openers, funny lines, pictures, links, etc. Ultimately I wasted time messaging, cajoling numbers from reluctant flakers, or meeting bored women who weren't terribly interested. I should have focussed on screening women who were interested instead of trying to change womens' minds.

Apparently all us posters are dishonest,potentially creepy and have a bad stalker mindset because we walk up to girls and try to game them.

You say you don't deny game but yet you look down on it and you're basically saying that you are better then the rest of us.

Post: #23

(09-19-2012 09:57 AM)Divorco Wrote:  Tuthmosis's date recipe was largely built on logistics conducive to seduction (clean apartment and alcohol). Still, many of Roosh and Tuthmosis's dates do not anticipate the engineered outcome. To what extent are deception and manipulation an effective part of game?

You're not giving girls enough credit here. The vasy majority of the time they definitely anticipate what's going to happen. The thing is they don't want it to be their fault. Therefore, it's up to the man to lead her through the emotions and phases of seduction so that sex occurs naturally.

You seem to be stuck in an idealist mindset. In a perfect world both men and women would show all their cards and get what they both want(sex), but the world is far from perfect and the game needs to be played.

I believe that a lot of women deep down KNOW that love and perfect chemistry is a fantasy. A lot of them go along it with though because they love the emotions, in a way they are just like junkies looking for the next hit.

At the the end of the night when I use the bathroom line, 90% of the time she know's it's bullshit. But I can't say "Hey let me into your place, so we can have sex." Women are wired to be the gatekeepers of sex.

I've been called out many times on my weaseling or 'game.', but a lot of these girls had sex with me anyway. I even dated many of them for a while. If she saw it as manipulative and wrong, she'd have told me to fuck off afterwards. The only time that she'll see you as dishonest is if she is not into you at all.

When things are getting hot and sex is about to occur I've even had girls say to me:

"We can keep going as long as you are taking responsibility for what is happening."

Most girls don't want to feel as if they have done anything to contribute to fast sex and slutty behavior. They know it'll cause guilty feelings. That means that as men we have to make it our fault, that way she can use the hamster and rationalize it away.

Post: #24

Guys Divorco is not a troll, I know him, He is a cool person to know just need a lot more gaming experience. Let's teach him our ways but troll he is not.

Why don't we help/teach people when they come up with a differnet view from the mainstream instead of having a trigger finger to posting that purple thingy

Game on brothers........

Post: #25

(09-20-2012 09:55 AM)Lothario Wrote:  Guys Divorco is not a troll, I know him, He is a cool person to know just need a lot more gaming experience. Let's teach him our ways but troll he is not.

Does any man genuinely strike up conversations with women he doesn't want to have sex with?

I'm not talking about work or a business conference or professional networking.

If you're in line at Starbucks, do you think, "I really should meet this girl? She looks really interesting?"

According to Divorco, we're all weasels when we pretend to be interested in what a girl has to say when the truth is that we want to have sex with her.