Post: #1

How do you guys feel about paying taxes?

Do you not pay?

Do you partly pay?

Do you pay everything you owe your government?

How much time and energy and money are you willing to spend avoiding tax? How far do you think the law can bend without breaking?

On a philosophical level, are taxes worth paying?

I'm trying to figure out if there is some sort of 'red pill' one can take on the issue.

The only way I know of truly avoiding tax is to be a citizen of a nation where you don't pay tax if you're out of the country for 6 months. People who work on cruise ships apparently routinely take 7-8 month contracts for this reason, to prove they were at sea (where no nation can levy a tax) for tax purposes. They end keeping all their salary.

But it seems to me, no matter what you do, someone somewhere is going to look at your wealth and tax it, unless you have high powered political connections.

Your thoughts?

Post: #2

My overall view on taxes is that it is a necessary but not needed way for The State to raise revenue. Society has to accept these terms though and grant the power to raise a purse via taxes, not the State dictating this downwards. If Society accepts these terms then it is fine. I feel most modern society would want a portion of their money to go towards schools, certain programs, systems, etc.

A robust state can leverage its resources accordingly and its assets (its people and its production) to create sizable wealth that taxes are not needed. America was fine for 144 years without income tax.

Now in regards to paying them....

It is really dependent on where you are. Me as a Canadian I am bound to pay taxes to the Privy, Sovereign, and Government. It is listed in my constitution and it is tricky to get out of but not impossible.

Americans are not constitutionally bound to pay income tax but every year they do. Income tax was never legally ratified in the Constitution (16th amendment was never ratified by the States), and thus Americans each year funnel money unnecessarily to the IRS. Income tax, and specifically income tax via fiat money is unconstitutional in America.

The IRS is not even a Govt entity and is not listed legally under the umbrella of the Dept of the Treasury. There is no mention of the IRS whiten US Code as it is simply a collection agency for USA lenders. Almost like somebody for your cell phone or water bill that is past due and is trying to garnish your wages that is simply all the IRS is.

You can by-pass taxes in almost any Sovereign State by declaring yourself Sovereign yourself. This is a lengthy process and costly but in the end you are essentially a invisible alien whiten the State and are not bound to taxes or to any privileges the state grants you.

The key fact to remember is that The State only grants you a artificial persona. It does not grant you your natural persona. You choose and accept to live by your artificial persona and thus are subject to the rules, or privileges the state gives you. Basically: The State is a artificial creation that society chooses to accept. It has no validity, its laws are nothing and mean if its people do not give it any validity.

How The State gets you is that you have to sign off to have your wages paid to you your artificial self via your Social Security #, etc. If you run your own business and are dealing with cash and transactions on good faith and mere handshakes (natural civil transactions, barter, trade) The State has no entitlement to any of that money. It does not matter what it tells you, only if you accept to it does it become - valid which many do simply for not knowing.

There are pros and cons to this of course. The pros are you are off the grid and do as you please. The cons are everyday life is hampered as well as employment if you don't think ahead.

Many high wealth individuals are Sovereigns and do not identify with any State - also the opposite - many Men of humble means are Sovereigns and live their lives "off the grid".

This is probably why you pondered the idea of tax as a red-pill thing because taxes are only valid if the Man choose to accept and submit himself to be a artificial citizen of The State.

A Man is independent and Sovereign by birthright.

Post: #3

While I agree with you in principle Kosko, I know someone who tried to stand up to the IRS and make the legal case that income tax is illegal. Even though the jury agreed with him, the judge ordered the jury to disregard certain things and he got screwed. Court evidence was tampered with, etc. He has been dealing with this now for a long time.

The government has virtually unlimited resources to fight you.

Essentially, avoid as many taxes as you can (but don't evade), and you can get a second citizenship somewhere. For example, I know someone who is getting an economic citizenship in Dominica.

Here's a link:

Economic Citizenship Comparison

Once you have a second citizenship, you can disavow your citizenship in the United States should you choose to (if things get bad enough), but I am fairly sure that you must apply for a visa to return. I wouldn't necessarily recommend doing so at the moment, but it is a good option to have. By the way, Dominica's fees for an economic citizenship, due to popular demand, double from $75,000 to $150,000 for an individual and $100,000 to $200,000 for a couple, on August 31st, 2012.

A good movie to watch in this regard is:

America: Freedom to Fascism

Personally, I don't mind having a safety net for those whom need it. We should be able to find a common sense way to work together to do that and that requires some taxes. Things are out of control as they are currently, from lazy ass welfare queens, to out of control health care costs, unfunded liabilities (social security, medicare), higher education costs, wars for empire - and that is not to mention corporate welfare.

I have quit thinking about it too much and am trying to focus on my life.

Post: #4

(08-30-2012 01:23 PM)durangotang Wrote:  While I agree with you in principle Kosko, I know someone who tried to stand up to the IRS and make the legal case that income tax is illegal. Even though the jury agreed with him, the judge ordered the jury to disregard certain things and he got screwed. Court evidence was tampered with, etc. He has been dealing with this now for a long time.

What's the legal case? I'd much rather we move from an income tax to some sort of consumption tax, but doesn't the 16th amendment pretty much settle the legal argument?

Post: #5

Post: #6

(08-30-2012 01:44 PM)j r Wrote:  

(08-30-2012 01:23 PM)durangotang Wrote:  While I agree with you in principle Kosko, I know someone who tried to stand up to the IRS and make the legal case that income tax is illegal. Even though the jury agreed with him, the judge ordered the jury to disregard certain things and he got screwed. Court evidence was tampered with, etc. He has been dealing with this now for a long time.

What's the legal case? I'd much rather we move from an income tax to some sort of consumption tax, but doesn't the 16th amendment pretty much settle the legal argument?

Just watch America: Freedom to Fascism.

or you can check out this website (I bought the book):
http://www.losthorizons.com/index.html
here is there introduction:
http://www.losthorizons.com/Intro.pdf
Check out the Bulletin board for testimonials.

Personally, I recommend filing a return. Especially considering there is a bill introduced to suspend your passport if you are delinquent on your taxes. You know, because we are the most free country on Earth.

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2012/04/0...taxpayers/

Good luck.

Post: #7

Quote: On a philosophical level, are taxes worth paying?

I'm trying to figure out if there is some sort of 'red pill' one can take on the issue.

I have a colleague who makes very strong ethical arguments against paying taxes. Look into anarcholibertarians, Austrian economics, mises institute. You can build from first axioms an extremely compelling argument.

Still, even if it isn't really ethically valid, you really have to realize that you're living in a world with constrained options. You work with what you have, and so you pay taxes. As to your question,

Quote:How much time and energy and money are you willing to spend avoiding tax?

The golden rule is, if you don't turn a profit doing it, don't do it.

Post: #8

I live in the U.S.

If the government weren't so wasteful, I wouldn't have any problems with paying taxes. If less money were given to Big Agra, Big Oil, Wall Street, and the Military Industrial Complex, I'd be find with higher tax rates.

Post: #9

(08-30-2012 02:39 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  I live in the U.S.

If the government weren't so wasteful, I wouldn't have any problems with paying taxes. If less money were given to Big Agra, Big Oil, Wall Street, and the Military Industrial Complex, I'd be find with higher tax rates.

hey! you forgot about Big Pharma!

Post: #10

I paid 42K in taxes last year and that was quite low compared to some of my colleagues who usually pay 60-80K, I know one guy who paid 120K last year.

I'm planning on going tax-free, expat style in the next 2-3 years and only coming back to Canada occasionally to visit family and friends, screw you Revenue Canada!

Post: #11

Get a good accountant!

Post: #12

(08-30-2012 02:39 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  I live in the U.S.

If the government weren't so wasteful, I wouldn't have any problems with paying taxes. If less money were given to Big Agra, Big Oil, Wall Street, and the Military Industrial Complex, I'd be find with higher tax rates.

At least that money stays in your own country. In Holland we give it all away to crooked tax states like Greece or will drop the money in the bottom less pit called human aid.

Both those purposes are lost causes

Post: #13

(08-30-2012 03:49 PM)Neil Skywalker Wrote:  At least that money stays in your own country. In Holland we give it all away to crooked tax states like Greece or will drop the money in the bottom less pit called human aid.

Both those purposes are lost causes

US Treasury bonds are an "I owe you." Eurobonds are a "Who owes you."

The money stays in our own country? Rest assured Neil, the Fed has been bailing out European banks as well:

The Federal Reserve's Covert Bailout of Europe

Or you could just take a look at US Foreign Aid or the World Bank.

Here is a good book to read:

Confessions of an Economic Hitman, by John Perkins.

Here is a speech by the author:





I wish the money stayed in our own country.

Post: #14

Ok, i didn´t know that

Post: #15

I've come to accept my position as the resident forum skeptic when it comes to conspiracy theories, but John Perkins is full of shit.  The way he goes about spinning his stories is very good though.  He takes a bunch of true statements and then weaves them all together into a narrative that many people find compelling.  According to his definition, my job would qualify me as an economic hitman and I can tell you that this world is nothing like the one he describes.

I don't know if anyone here has ever worked for the government.  To make things work the way Perkins describes them would involve an insane level of inter-agency cooperation that simply does not exist. 

Post: #16

(08-30-2012 04:43 PM)j r Wrote:  I've come to accept my position as the resident forum skeptic when it comes to conspiracy theories, but John Perkins is full of shit.  The way he goes about spinning his stories is very good though.  He takes a bunch of true statements and then weaves them all together into a narrative that many people find compelling.  According to his definition, my job would qualify me as an economic hitman and I can tell you that this world is nothing like the one he describes.

I don't know if anyone here has ever worked for the government.  To make things work the way Perkins describes them would involve an insane level of inter-agency cooperation that simply does not exist. 

"The government" is compromised of many different agencies, with different purposes. It is a hierarchical structure and very compartmentalized. What agency/department do you work for? Just because your particular position and experiences don't correlate to his life story, doesn't mean it's bullshit. It's probably above your pay grade (no offense).

Post: #17

(08-30-2012 05:03 PM)durangotang Wrote:  Just because your particular position and experiences don't correlate to his life story, doesn't mean it's bullshit. It's probably above your pay grade (no offense).

That's possible. It's also possible that I work at a convenience store and everything that I know, I picked up on the internet. You never know.

None of that has anything to do with whether or not this Perkins guy is full of shit. If you don't believe me, go look for yourself. Information on all World Bank projects, all IMF loans are publicly available online. These are huge organizations that employ thousands of people. The project process involves a board that has representation from all the member countries. The U.S. has a lot of pull in these organizations, but can't just make loans at will.

Some of the things this guy says are absolutely true. The CIA did overthrow or attempt to destabilize lots of governments during the Cold War. Aid projects have backfired and left countries worse off. There are people who go back and forth between government and the private sector. None of this, however, proves the existence of some shadowy elite that runs the world from behind the scenes. The world is a complicated and chaotic place, no one "runs" it.

More to the point, this guys story just has too many holes. The NSA for instance, why would it be training "economic hitmen?" The NSA does signals intelligence: running satellites, intercepting communications, breaking codes. They neither conduct economic policy nor manage human intelligence assets. It's possible that the NSA has some super secret program that does this sort of thing, but that would be highly classified and Perkins wouldn't have been brought into this program as a civilian. If he were being used by some secret government program, why would they tell him about it? Why wouldn't they let him go about is business thinking that he was only working for a private company, never knowing who was really behind it all?

Google the term "economic hitman" and find a link that doesn't directly relate to Perkins. He made up this term. Find me any incidents of the NSA running plots that involve economic aid or making governments indebted to the U.S. If this stuff is true, there should be some kind of independent verification.

Post: #18

yikes! someone hasn't yet taken the political red pill!!!!

Post: #19

(08-30-2012 03:49 PM)Neil Skywalker Wrote:  

(08-30-2012 02:39 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  I live in the U.S.

If the government weren't so wasteful, I wouldn't have any problems with paying taxes. If less money were given to Big Agra, Big Oil, Wall Street, and the Military Industrial Complex, I'd be find with higher tax rates.

At least that money stays in your own country. In Holland we give it all away to crooked tax states like Greece or will drop the money in the bottom less pit called human aid.

Both those purposes are lost causes

That happens in the US to Neil.

Hawaiians pay the same as any other state, but what do we get?

We don't get highway money, or bank bailout money, farm subsidies, rail subsidies, none of that.

Then we got high-as-shit state taxes because we are required by geography to be so self-sufficient.

My thoughts on taxes are that they are bullshit.

Aloha!

Post: #20

Taxation is theft. However, I pay them to avoid being sent to the Rape Rooms (Prison).

Post: #21

Just read a new article by Simon Black on the subject.

"If for no other reason that simply to avoid prison, people ought to pay the minimum amount… and not a penny more" - Simon Black

http://www.sovereignman.com/expat/on-swi...afia-8575/

Post: #22

Taxes are just part of the game. The game of life. Pay the least possible, legally. I wouldn't go up against the US govnt unless you truly plan to never return. Our government is poorly run... And it's one of the best ones out there on a relative basis. Unlike greece, we come after you of you cheat.

Once you start making real cash, $200K+ or investment income above $1K monthly, you should take a long look at taxes and start running biz math on everything. Until then taxes remain relatively stable.

Post: #23

WestCoast,

Are you aware of any tax strategies for people making $200K-$300K that can lower their taxes if the income is primarily or exclusively wage income? I have always been under the impression that tax reduction strategies really work well when the income is dividends and/or capital gains, not earned income. I know you're not a tax attorney, and I could easily consult one, but I'm curious if you (or anyone) know off the top of your head.

Post: #24

Generally income is taxed at the highest rate, that's the reason that income taxes don't affect the rich at all because they make most of their money through capital gains and dividends. I know in canada that capital gains tax is half the income tax and you can get additional tax credits from receiving dividends from canadian companies. I remember reading somewhere the tax rate on capital gains is around 15% in the US and if structured in long term capital gains and deferred it can be taxed at 10%. Also depending on how you structure it in trusts, etc taxes can be deferred without being paid or even not paid at all. If your making 200-300k you could incorporate or create yourself as a business. That way your personal expenses could be put under the business and can reduce your taxable income if your a sole proprietorship. The problem would be you'd have to self contract yourself as a business and can be extremely problematic if your an employee.

Post: #25

Bolded stole my thunder, assuming I'm in this bracket next year... I'll be restructuring my finances.

(08-31-2012 11:27 AM)zeeman Wrote:  Generally income is taxed at the highest rate, that's the reason that income taxes don't affect the rich at all because they make most of their money through capital gains and dividends. I know in canada that capital gains tax is half the income tax and you can get additional tax credits from receiving dividends from canadian companies. I remember reading somewhere the tax rate on capital gains is around 15% in the US and if structured in long term capital gains and deferred it can be taxed at 10%. Also depending on how you structure it in trusts, etc taxes can be deferred without being paid or even not paid at all. If your making 200-300k you could incorporate or create yourself as a business. That way your personal expenses could be put under the business and can reduce your taxable income if your a sole proprietorship. The problem would be you'd have to self contract yourself as a business and can be extremely problematic if your an employee.