Post: #76

Good post Shibby.

Is it possible to study Mandarin at university but not study characters? I know there was a movement to use Latin letters and you see Mandarin transliterated into Latin alphabet on bill boards etc. seems you'd get fluent much quicker if you did not spend so much time on the characters.

Post: #77

Im sure you could get conversational in Mandarin in 6 months if you focussed on that.

I saw multiple westerners do that with Thai in Thailand, which is a tonal language with supposedly harder grammar than Mandarin (for Westerners). And they weren't even very focussed on it, just going to classes and being immersed in it in daily life.

How-To-Learn-Any-Language.com rates Mandarin as 3/5 difficulty for speaking only:
http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/e/l...index.html

If you smashed great courses beforehand like Michel Thomas (for a grounding in the tones) and Assimil (for vocab) and 1-on-1 tutoring, I bet you'd get it quickly, especially if you're immersed in it over there.

Post: #78

(01-23-2013 09:53 AM)clever alias Wrote:  you can't reach a high conversational level in 6 months, even devoting all of your time to conversation.

What do you consider a high conversational level? I consider it being able to say everything you would normally say in everyday conversation. Something like "It's too hot today, I'm just going to get a taxi. If I walk all that way I'm going to sweat alot and I'll be uncomfortable." or "I hate working in accounting, I'm not satisfied with my job at all. I think I'm going to quit and start looking for something in marketing. Maybe even start my own business"

This level is very reachable in 6 months. I can say and read these sentences and maybe half write them, and I studied for 8 months, learning reading writing and speaking, and I missed a lot of class being hungover etc. If you devoted all your time on conversation, you will easily learn to converse comfortably on every aspect of daily life after 6 months, in my opinion.

You won't be able to say "I'm bullish on China, the manufacturing sector here had a growth rate of X% last quarter and will continue to grow at that rate. Inflation is a problem, hopefully the government finds a way to get this under control." But I would consider this fluent, not highly conversational.

It's pointless to make a statement like yours, because people will learn differently and at a different pace, especially with language.

Post: #79

(01-23-2013 10:28 AM)Vorkuta Wrote:  Good post Shibby.

Is it possible to study Mandarin at university but not study characters? I know there was a movement to use Latin letters and you see Mandarin transliterated into Latin alphabet on bill boards etc. seems you'd get fluent much quicker if you did not spend so much time on the characters.

Mandarin has been romanized, this is called pinyin.
Hello in pinyin would be Ni hao
And in characters it would be 你好
(I'm guessing from this you can already see what a pain in the ass it is to learn to read, let alone write)

I know of one private language school in Shanghai, though I forget the name, that does not teach characters at all, the entire course is in pinyin so you can focus entirely on conversation. And yes, students do progress much faster there. However, universities are generally in the business of preparing students for the HSK exam - its a standard international exam to test your proficiency (many employers will request you have a decent HSK level before considering you for employment). And the exam is written in Chinese, so if you can't read or write you'll fail, obviously.
I don't know of any universities that would adopt the pinyin approach, as its kind of a shortcut approach. People coming to university to learn Chinese generally would want to be taught the language in its entirety.

Post: #80

(01-23-2013 10:55 AM)shibby Wrote:  

(01-23-2013 09:53 AM)clever alias Wrote:  you can't reach a high conversational level in 6 months, even devoting all of your time to conversation.

What do you consider a high conversational level? I consider it being able to say everything you would normally say in everyday conversation. Something like "It's too hot today, I'm just going to get a taxi. If I walk all that way I'm going to sweat alot and I'll be uncomfortable." or "I hate working in accounting, I'm not satisfied with my job at all. I think I'm going to quit and start looking for something in marketing. Maybe even start my own business"

This level is very reachable in 6 months. I can say and read these sentences and maybe half write them, and I studied for 8 months, learning reading writing and speaking, and I missed a lot of class being hungover etc. If you devoted all your time on conversation, you will easily learn to converse comfortably on every aspect of daily life after 6 months, in my opinion.

You won't be able to say "I'm bullish on China, the manufacturing sector here had a growth rate of X% last quarter and will continue to grow at that rate. Inflation is a problem, hopefully the government finds a way to get this under control." But I would consider this fluent, not highly conversational.

It's pointless to make a statement like yours, because people will learn differently and at a different pace, especially with language.

saying its too hot and you want to take a taxi is not highly conversational. where i studied it took four to semesters to finish elementary grammar

Post: #81

(01-23-2013 11:56 AM)clever alias Wrote:  saying its too hot and you want to take a taxi is not highly conversational. where i studied it took four to semesters to finish elementary grammar

I agree, saying "It's too hot and I want to take a taxi" is not highly conversational. Who said it was? Not me.

If you would like to add to this discussion, give an example of something you consider highly conversational.

Post: #82

Shibby,I've had a long held view about Mandarin since spending time in China. I wonder if you could tell me if I am right or wrong to hold it? It's namely that the language has an undeserved reputation for difficulty. The main reason it's undeserved is because the grammar is actually very simple as in apart from rules with word order and especially in relation to 'quantity',there are no case endings like Russian for example or masc/fem/neut words as in French for instance. The real difficulty is the written form and maybe mastering the tones but from a grammatical point it's simple. Therefore once you have a vocab built up you can speak very good grammatically correct Mandarin. Would you agree with that or is it an erroneous view?

I know you said students want to learn the characters but for someone like VP who wants the language for business deals and wheeling and dealing more then say for taking the HSK exam would you not advise him to learn with Pinyin? He could get fluency so much quicker.

A final comical note...I met an Aussie guy in Beijing who was learning Chinese at Uni in Harbin. I told him that it must be amazing being able to speak to the locals in their language. However he said the problem was that when he approached a local to ask directions for example ( in Mandarin ) they'd immediately start saying "I don't speak English,I don't understand you"! and waive him away. They had presumed that he was talking a foreign language because they could not imagine a foreigner speaking Mandarin. So he's have to say "shut up and listen to me,I'm talking Chinese". Sometimes they still didn't click. He could of been bullshitting but judging from the Chinese men I met in the provinces it was highly possible.

Post: #83

(01-23-2013 12:10 PM)shibby Wrote:  

(01-23-2013 11:56 AM)clever alias Wrote:  saying its too hot and you want to take a taxi is not highly conversational. where i studied it took four to semesters to finish elementary grammar

I agree, saying "It's too hot and I want to take a taxi" is not highly conversational. Who said it was? Not me.

If you would like to add to this discussion, give an example of something you consider highly conversational.

i would use the bullish china example you gave. but would not differentiate much between fluent and highly conversational

Post: #84

(01-23-2013 12:12 PM)Vorkuta Wrote:  Shibby,I've had a long held view about Mandarin since spending time in China. I wonder if you could tell me if I am right or wrong to hold it? It's namely that the language has an undeserved reputation for difficulty. The main reason it's undeserved is because the grammar is actually very simple as in apart from rules with word order and especially in relation to 'quantity',there are no case endings like Russian for example or masc/fem/neut words as in French for instance. The real difficulty is the written form and maybe mastering the tones but from a grammatical point it's simple. Therefore once you have a vocab built up you can speak very good grammatically correct Mandarin. Would you agree with that or is it an erroneous view?

I know you said students want to learn the characters but for someone like VP who wants the language for business deals and wheeling and dealing more then say for taking the HSK exam would you not advise him to learn with Pinyin? He could get fluency so much quicker.

A final comical note...I met an Aussie guy in Beijing who was learning Chinese at Uni in Harbin. I told him that it must be amazing being able to speak to the locals in their language. However he said the problem was that when he approached a local to ask directions for example ( in Mandarin ) they'd immediately start saying "I don't speak English,I don't understand you"! and waive him away. They had presumed that he was talking a foreign language because they could not imagine a foreigner speaking Mandarin. So he's have to say "shut up and listen to me,I'm talking Chinese". Sometimes they still didn't click. He could of been bullshitting but judging from the Chinese men I met in the provinces it was highly possible.

its the only language i can yhink of that is both tonal and used characters, both of which are completely foreign to westerners.
the grammar is largely straightforward but odd. for example, the passive voice is rarely usrd and almost exclusively as a negative. also, while verbs only have 1 form, you combine them to say different yhings. for example if a pen is out of ink, you dont say "this pen doesn't write" rather "this pen writes not out to us"

Post: #85

(01-23-2013 12:12 PM)Vorkuta Wrote:  I know you said students want to learn the characters but for someone like VP who wants the language for business deals and wheeling and dealing more then say for taking the HSK exam would you not advise him to learn with Pinyin? He could get fluency so much quicker.

I'm not sure if I would recommend VP to learn solely with pinyin, but I would certainly recommend he not bother learning to write. Learning to read has its benefits and although takes time, is nowhere near as time consuming as learning to write.
Some benefits of learning to read Chinese characters:
- You can use a computer to write. You type in the pinyin and then select the character, so if you can recognize the character, you can write on a cellphone or computer. This is often necessary for texting girls, as many of the local girls cannot read pinyin.

- You can read basic directions, road signs, menus in a restaurant, etc. Many will have English translations, but not all. Even in Shanghai which is probably the most international city in China, there are restaurant menus only in Chinese.

Also I find just having some knowledge of Chinese characters is preferable if you're serious about learning the language. That way you're not a complete illiterate. I would say a good approach would be to make an effort to learn the characters for your basic vocab - food, colours, places, words like 'restaurant' and 'coffee' and Beijing. Then when you start really building your vocab with words like 'jealous' and 'elephant' and 'earthquake', its pinyin all the way.

(01-23-2013 12:12 PM)Vorkuta Wrote:  Shibby,I've had a long held view about Mandarin since spending time in China. I wonder if you could tell me if I am right or wrong to hold it? It's namely that the language has an undeserved reputation for difficulty. The main reason it's undeserved is because the grammar is actually very simple as in apart from rules with word order and especially in relation to 'quantity',there are no case endings like Russian for example or masc/fem/neut words as in French for instance. The real difficulty is the written form and maybe mastering the tones but from a grammatical point it's simple. Therefore once you have a vocab built up you can speak very good grammatically correct Mandarin. Would you agree with that or is it an erroneous view?

I would agree. Grammatically its an extremely simple language, compared to say English or Spanish. Verbs don't even change when speaking in past/future tense. Meaning the exact same sentence could be past tense or present tense, depending on context. Compare this to Spanish where you have 8 (or more?) past tense forms of a verb to choose from, and all mean something slightly different. So yes, relatively speaking the amount of grammar you need to learn is minimal. Your time will be mostly spent learning to read and write vocab lists.

I wouldn't consider the tones an area of difficulty, there are only 4, and they are tones that are fairly easy to reproduce (at least I thought so). Some students do have difficulty with them, but the majority don't. In my course we spent the first 2 weeks just practicing tones, and that was enough.

I also wouldn't consider the written form difficult, just very time consuming. 90% of the time I spent studying for exams was just memorizing how to write characters. This is brainless work, there is no problem to solve, you just need a pen, lots of paper, and a shitload of time. Imagine someone gave you a page of 500 silly shapes and you had to memorize them all and redraw them in an exam. That's basically studying Chinese characters. It isn't a question of whether you're smart or dumb. It's just a question of do you give a shit.

In fact, I don't really consider any part of the language difficult per se. When you learn French or Spanish, there are areas of difficulty that you really need to think about. In this sentence should the verb be in subjunctive or conditional? Things like that. These issues don't exist in Mandarin, or at least not that I am aware of. I studied until HSK-5, and currently the highest level is HSK-6.

This is why I say, remove the writing component and you can learn the language fairly quickly. On another note, speaking the tones is not terribly difficult but recognizing them is much harder. Even when spoken slowly they can sound similar so when natives speak naturally fast, it can be really hard to understand. You need to make an effort to train your ear in this respect. Out of reading, writing, listening, speaking, my listening exam was always my lowest mark.




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Post: #86

(01-21-2013 01:07 PM)Vorkuta Wrote:  

(01-21-2013 12:09 PM)qazwsx Wrote:  I highly recommend the documentary made by British historian Niall Ferguson (Harvard Professor and author of other documentaries and books, notably "The Ascent of Money" - here and here). It's called "China: Triumph and Turmoil":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKyY0u8AJ...brxu1o20GG

[Unfortenately, I didn't manage to find the third episode in youtube]

+1

I saw the series on UK tv,was fascinating and well worth watching.

(01-21-2013 03:01 PM)Vacancier Permanent Wrote:  Awesome documentary indeed. Finished watching the first 4 parts of the first episode. Very informative! Thanks for posting it qazwsx.

The third episode is definitely worth watching as well if you like the two prior. While the first two cover China's distant and recent history, the third discusses its present, future and global implications. It's not on Youtube, but easy to find a torrent, e.g. here.

Post: #87

A documentary on sex in China.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQUkv9dB-Dw

After having lived in China for the better part of a year I must say it's not exactly as 'liberal' as this doco makes it out to be, but definitely heading in that direction. Interesting stuff.

Post: #88

Awesome post Shibby! Thank you for the detailed post about your experiences with learning Chinese in China! While I'm sure it would be valuable to learn to read and write in Chinese, for someone like me, the main imperative will be to speak and negotiate with the locals there and with girls. When I get there, my main focus will be oral Chinese and once I get to a decent level at that, then I may start to learn the basic characters for the basic words to help me specially with reading the signs on the streets and menus in local restaurants.

I'd be interested in a course which focuses mainly on the spoken Chinese at least initially as mentioned. Do you or anyone in here knows of any such course in GZ?

Vorkuta,
thanks for sharing your story in China, that's some crazy stuff man!
Sounds good if you joined me in China after the Russia project. Btw, how's that coming along? Have you been studying Russian and pipelining hard on VK?

Someone asked if I'll be in GZ for the Canton Fair. Yes I will be there, for the Fall one.

Post: #89

Unfortunately I do not know alot about schools in GZ, I only just traveled through there very briefly. You will surely have the fastest results with a private tutor though, so that's what I would recommend. It is not uncommon for students to enroll in a university or language school for morning classes and then take private class in the evening. I spent most of my time in Shanghai, and there were many private teachers around, just try and find one that is experienced and can be vouched for. It was normal in Shanghai for teachers to give the first 3-5 lessons free, some even gave 10 free, so that helps. You can take lessons with a few teachers and end up getting 30/40 free lessons. Not sure if it is the same in GZ though.
Probably best you ask around some of the expats you met there and they will surely be able to give you the best advice.

Post: #90

I am planning to go to China soon, for traveling purposes. However I'm pretty young, very creative and really love starting and businesses, while I'm there I would like to somehow give it a try in China!

How does one go from a simple foreigner tourist/traveler to start moving pieces/gathering contacts while in China? VP? Anyone?

Post: #91

Fretdancer,
When and where in China are you planning on going? For business, you really can't beat Guangzhou for all the reasons mentioned throughout this thread. And IMO, the best way to establish contacts is through the guys at the elevatorlife.com You really can't go wrong with them. First, go through all the very informative videos on their site, get their free ebook to make your creative juices go on overdrive and then, get in touch with them. They are down to earth and cool. I can totally vouch for them, having consulted with them, meeting and partying with them.

Best of luck amigo, keep me posted how things go!

Post: #92

(01-25-2013 03:00 PM)Vacancier Permanent Wrote:  Fretdancer,
When and where in China are you planning on going? For business, you really can't beat Guangzhou for all the reasons mentioned throughout this thread. And IMO, the best way to establish contacts is through the guys at the elevatorlife.com You really can't go wrong with them. First, go through all the very informative videos on their site, get their free ebook to make your creative juices go on overdrive and then, get in touch with them. They are down to earth and cool. I can totally vouch for them, having consulted with them, meeting and partying with them.

Best of luck amigo, keep me posted how things go!

Thanks VP. Will check out everything you mentioned. The idea is to depart this coming April. I'm seeing some really cheap flights on Skyscanner for that date, however I don't know how long they will stay that way and I can't buy them right now because I still need to take care of some stuff before confirming my departure.

I am planning on hitting Beijing mostly. But my plan also included Guangzhou, Shenzhen, and Shanghai (again, just traveling) if the train tickets are affordable (which I heard they really are).

Post: #93

From what I hear, GZ is your spot if you're looking at business revolved around import/export, manufacturing etc.

Shanghai is an incredible city and is easily the most international city I've ever been to (more so than Hong Kong). Many people there call it the new Manhattan (I've never been to Manhattan so it doesn't mean much to me). Although it wasn't really my kind of a city, there is a definite buzz around the place that can really be infectious. A lot of the international businesses here revolve around fashion, F&B, and imported luxury goods. Also many international corporates looking for English speaking professionals, though networking will be a factor in getting you a decent gig.

Beijing feels a little older and less international, less modern, has a lot more history to it than Shanghai does. I've been here a few times but didn't really get under the skin of the city. Only went to see the great wall etc etc. Perhaps someone else can provide some insight.

For traveling through China, I would just recommend flying for any trip that would take over a couple hours on the train. Taking the bullet train from Shanghai to Beijing is fine, but I wouldn't do it from Shanghai > Shenzhen or Shanghai > Guangzhou. The flight will be 2 hours and is inexpensive. Use http://www.ctrip.com.cn to get a decent fare.

Post: #94

I am in Shenzhen right now, having fun with a local girl that I've previously met in SEA. English speaking women clearly are into foreigners, at the same time the foreigners have a reputation for being horny white devils (my girl is telling me). Anyone up to a drink is welcome to send me a PM.

Post: #95

A couple of very useful sites for those looking into things to do, potential great networking events and venues to hit for fly chinese and foreign girls in GZ and SZ:

Everything you'd need to know about what's going on in Guangzhou:
gzstuff.com

Everything you'd need to know about what's going on in Shenzen.
szstuff.com

dirtypurist,
How long are you staying in SZ? Are you there for biz? vacation or teaching/working there? I'd love to hear more about your experiences in SZ as that's also a place I'm very interested in and will go spend time there when I return to China.

Thanks!

Post: #96

(02-03-2013 06:15 PM)Vacancier Permanent Wrote:  A couple of very useful sites for those looking into things to do, potential great networking events and venues to hit for fly chinese and foreign girls in GZ and SZ:

Everything you'd need to know about what's going on in Guangzhou:
gzstuff.com

Everything you'd need to know about what's going on in Shenzen.
szstuff.com

dirtypurist,
How long are you staying in SZ? Are you there for biz? vacation or teaching/working there? I'd love to hear more about your experiences in SZ as that's also a place I'm very interested in and will go spend time there when I return to China.

Thanks!

Spent about 10 days in SZ and two days in GZ. Basically I visited a very nice local girl that I've met previously, and a couple of others. Strangely enough, I found that Chinese girls are more eager to get laid at home than on vacation (my score was two out of three).
Also hung out with some English teacher dudes, who told me about the decent money they make. 200 RMB an hour seems standard. Did some nice drugs but didn't go out much.
I am clueless about business stuff, unfortunately, I want to get into it, but first move to SZ and know more details about the local scene.

Post: #97

This is a great thread.. thanks all.
Have anyone of you been to this place Hangzhou? I will be going there on a business trip for a week.. mostly mid February.
Any must visit pubs or places there?

Post: #98

I'm seriously considering making the jump back to Asia and Guangdong is one of the areas that picques my interest. I travelled through China for two months a couple years ago and found the south to be much more liveable and vibrant than the provinces in and around Beijing and Shanghai. Beijing was polluted and after coming from Korea I was shocked by drop in quality of the women. Shanghai was expensive and seemed to be devoid of women. Just my experience.

I will echo that there is serious opportunity in Asia for Westerners with some skills, knowledge, and diligence. Do you want to make money? Get out into the boonies and open an English school in Changchun or Xining. Or start a business importing quality, Western-made products to service the expanding Chinese middle class. I'm looking at both of these as an option right now.

I was living in Thailand up until last May when I decided to come back to the States and further my education so I could eventually do more than just teach English. I just finished a 6 month postgraduate course in logistics, which has taught me tons about the mechanisms and processes in international trade. I also took a job for the last 6 months in a freight forwarder (a very shady one at that so now I see how the middle man will fuck you over--CEO was a serious white collar criminal) just to learn about the entire process. I think I'm now ready to do this.

So I showed up late yesterday and quit effective immediately. Felt good telling that rat bastard CEO that he's the one that got played. Now I'm pretty much a free man again and it feels damn good. My lease runs out at the end of the month so things are starting to come together. I'm going to take the next month or so and figure out which country to get this thing off the ground from. Right now I'm trying to decide between China, Indonesia, Vietnam, and going back to Thailand. Myanmar has my attention too.

The reason I post this here is because some of you guys have some great insights into both trade/opportunities in this area and just the quality of life/living situation in China.

My main worry at this point is that Guangzhou is just alrady too saturated with foreigners and too developed to come in with little capital and really make some money. What are your thoughts on that? It seems to me there are a million yahoos already out there exporting cheap crap out of China. Is there really still a way to capture that marketshare and get in on the action? From everything I've been seeing recently it seems that a common topic is how manufacturing will be migrating out of China.

What do you think about bringing in quality manufactured goods from the US or high quality food products? Anyone googled "China baby formula" lately? Do it and you'll see the potential of the emerging Chinese middle class. These people have money and there are hundreds of millions of them.

What are some thoughts on some of the other second tier port cities in China like Xiamen or Ningbo or Dalian? Has anyone been to these places and if so how does the current situation/opportunities compare to Guangdong? If you're going to be importing you're going to want to be near a major port.

Post: #99

JD,
While it is true that as you put it nicely, every yahoo is in Guangdang exporting crap out of China, opportunities there are incredible. And like in anything else, the way to differentiate yourself from the competition is by offering better quality, learning the language, being familiar with the local customs of things are done and delivering more than what the clients are expecting. And that frankly is not quite hard to achieve in China where as long as you have the basics checked, it's not hard to achieve that.

I agree totally with you that the major money is in importing quality, luxury goods from overseas into China. As you mentioned, the Chinese middle class is exploding and they have money to burn. Their appetite for western, luxury goods is simply unsatiable. This is also where I will be concentrating on when I get there later this year.

You're also right that the 2nd tier cities are a gold mine. Keep in mind tough that the sheer size of cities in China are in a different league than what we may be used to by western standards. A village can have half a million people and a small town, over a million. As a matter of fact, there are over 50+ cities with a population of a million or more. Mind blowing!
China is really the wild wild wild west or rather in that case, the wild wild wild east and it's developing like crazy at a neck braking pace.

In my opinion, the best place to start is to watch the videos on the elevatorlife.com site. These guys know their stuff inside out and are down to earth.

Here are a couple of videos that address much of your comments:
http://www.theelevatorlife.com/the-eleva...-in-china/

http://www.theelevatorlife.com/the-eleva...isconnect/

When you will go back to China, which city are you going to base yourself in? Keep me updated on things as I will be very interested in how things go for you. I will return to China in the fall.

All the best man!

Post: #100

I'd heard you mention the 'Elevator Life' before VP but kind of presumed that they were guys selling pipe dreams or some get rich quick scheme. I just looked at the videos and saw that those guys are solid,real good advice in there. I especially like there views on the need for cultural understanding before investing big and the idea that you can go to China having no idea what you will end up doing because you will see a niche once you arrive. I found it pretty inspiring to be honest.

I think their views on cultural understanding relates heavily to women too and having successful relationships in foreign countries.

Right,off to book my ticket to Guangdong!