Post: #51

My general take on this matter is the most important things you are being sized up on before you open your mouth:

1) Race: If we're honest, you know it's the first thing people notice about you and it has a major effect on your value in the sexual marketplace. It's probably the one physical variable that has the power to negate all of your variables.

2) Status: Do you look like a shot-caller or a guy that sweeps the floor? Where do you fall on the alpha-omega continuum?

3) Looks

4) Height

5) Style

I think decent game might be like adding a couple points on the 0-10 scale. So if you're an average guy, you might be brought up to a 7. If you have matrix-level game, you might get 3 extra points.

Thing is though, if you fit the girls profile on the 1-5 items above, you don't need any game. Just don't set off her "creeper" alarm and the rest takes care of itself.

(08-12-2012 11:53 PM)xsplat Wrote:  I would bet money that I'm the ugliest guy on the forum. There have been many times where I literally could not get any attention in a Thai whorehouse. Strikingly below average. And short and balding and mid forties.

Of course looks matter. A hell of a lot. Clubs are not an easy venue for me, and I very rarely get IOIs, and then it's usually from chicks I'd never bone. I'm NEVER approached.

Can game completely compensate for ALL of that deficit? No. Just no. Fewer girls are going to be available to me than the younger and more handsome guy.

But I still routinely date way out of my league, and out compete young handsome guys. And I can hook the hotties strongly enough that they don't leave me for the competition. Just have to work harder, and even be careful about location.

I can understand why the tiresome subject keeps coming up. It's a habit of mind to piece together facts in ways that don't offend our sense of pride, or make you feel a lesser man. So some guys prefer to think one way or the other. Facts and emotions can be like oil and water. The fact is plain.

Xsplat, I'd love to see you break things down. You're the kind of guy I like hearing from. Hearing a pretty boy like that guy debauchery talking about his exploits wasn't of any use to us. But when a guy openly admits to being ugly and is still pulling, that's who I want to hear more from.

Tell is more about your status. What's your height? Are you in decent shape? Your status as far as lifestyle and money, i.e. do you roll like a baller? Do you have good style? Personality-wise, where do you fall, are you an introvert or extrovert? What is your style of game, do you bring the laid back cool guy game? Asshole game? Break down your formula a bit.

It's also interesting that you said you get no IOIs. You don't have to be ugly to not get IOIs. I'm not a pretty boy, but I'm not a bad looking guy either. I'm no worse than average, and IOIs happen to me maybe a couple times A YEAR. Any set I get into is always cold opening. I rarely have any warm sets or flirty girls sending "approach me" vibes. Doesn't happen.

Post: #52

Narcissists are in constant need of validation, which they supply to themselves. He doesn't pedestalize women; he has oneitis for himself.

Narcissus is described as "exceptionally proud, in that he disdained those who loved him" To me, this betrays a fear of connecting with the rest of the world.

Irrational self-confidence does not require validation. Like a fearless Tiger who experiences no dread.

Post: #53

(08-13-2012 02:11 AM)speakeasy Wrote:  My general take on this matter is the most important things you are being sized up on before you open your mouth:

1) Race: If we're honest, you know it's the first thing people notice about you and it has a major effect on your value in the sexual marketplace. It's probably the one physical variable that has the power to negate all of your variables.

2) Status: Do you look like a shot-caller or a guy that sweeps the floor? Where do you fall on the alpha-omega continuum?

3) Looks

4) Height

5) Style

I think decent game might be like adding a couple points on the 0-10 scale. So if you're an average guy, you might be brought up to a 7. If you have matrix-level game, you might get 3 extra points.

Thing is though, if you fit the girls profile on the 1-5 items above, you don't need any game. Just don't set off her "creeper" alarm and the rest takes care of itself.

(08-12-2012 11:53 PM)xsplat Wrote:  I would bet money that I'm the ugliest guy on the forum. There have been many times where I literally could not get any attention in a Thai whorehouse. Strikingly below average. And short and balding and mid forties.

Of course looks matter. A hell of a lot. Clubs are not an easy venue for me, and I very rarely get IOIs, and then it's usually from chicks I'd never bone. I'm NEVER approached.

Can game completely compensate for ALL of that deficit? No. Just no. Fewer girls are going to be available to me than the younger and more handsome guy.

But I still routinely date way out of my league, and out compete young handsome guys. And I can hook the hotties strongly enough that they don't leave me for the competition. Just have to work harder, and even be careful about location.

I can understand why the tiresome subject keeps coming up. It's a habit of mind to piece together facts in ways that don't offend our sense of pride, or make you feel a lesser man. So some guys prefer to think one way or the other. Facts and emotions can be like oil and water. The fact is plain.

Xsplat, I'd love to see you break things down. You're the kind of guy I like hearing from. Hearing a pretty boy like that guy debauchery talking about his exploits wasn't of any use to us. But when a guy openly admits to being ugly and is still pulling, that's who I want to hear more from.

Tell is more about your status. What's your height? Are you in decent shape? Your status as far as lifestyle and money, i.e. do you roll like a baller? Do you have good style? Personality-wise, where do you fall, are you an introvert or extrovert? What is your style of game, do you bring the laid back cool guy game? Asshole game? Break down your formula a bit.

It's also interesting that you said you get no IOIs. You don't have to be ugly to not get IOIs. I'm not a pretty boy, but I'm not a bad looking guy either. I'm no worse than average, and IOIs happen to me maybe a couple times A YEAR. Any set I get into is always cold opening. I rarely have any warm sets or flirty girls sending "approach me" vibes. Doesn't happen.

Tailoring your game or look depending on the kind of crowd/girl you will be seeing the most of in a given day or night is something you can kind of prepare for too. A lot of girls will have different tastes and the style that works for one may not work another. Experimenting with a few different styles based on the kind of crowd has taught me a few things. If I was going to party with some hipsters, I would definitely steal Giovanny's Westbrook glasses. If I were going to a different kind of place with classier looking girls in skin tight dresses, I'd bust out one of my favorite custom suit ensembles.

Other things being equal, I think style and game are the biggest amplifiers of what you already bring to the table.

Post: #54

(08-13-2012 02:11 AM)speakeasy Wrote:  Xsplat, I'd love to see you break things down. You're the kind of guy I like hearing from. Hearing a pretty boy like that guy debauchery talking about his exploits wasn't of any use to us. But when a guy openly admits to being ugly and is still pulling, that's who I want to hear more from.

Tell is more about your status. What's your height? Are you in decent shape? Your status as far as lifestyle and money, i.e. do you roll like a baller? Do you have good style? Personality-wise, where do you fall, are you an introvert or extrovert? What is your style of game, do you bring the laid back cool guy game? Asshole game? Break down your formula a bit.

It's also interesting that you said you get no IOIs. You don't have to be ugly to not get IOIs. I'm not a pretty boy, but I'm not a bad looking guy either. I'm no worse than average, and IOIs happen to me maybe a couple times A YEAR. Any set I get into is always cold opening. I rarely have any warm sets or flirty girls sending "approach me" vibes. Doesn't happen.

I appreciate the interest. I often try to break down what things I do differently now that contribute to greater success, but find it difficult. Is it that ineffable set of traits that add up to "confidence"? Not really. I don't think it's that simple. It's probably more about lots of practice making many small adjustments that I'm not even aware of. But it's fun to think about.

And when I do think about relationship stuff it's usually about LTR advice, as thats my focus more than that first seduction.

For now I'll just answer the straightforward questions.
* Tell is more about your status.
It's pretty good, being a white guy in Asia. My formal education only goes up to high school, but I speak above a university graduate level. And age gives a guy some status, if he's living right.

* What's your height?
5'8". Not bad for SE Asia. And I target short girls.

* Are you in decent shape?
Ya. Slim, but wiry. I look better with my shirt off than on. I'm the guy at the gym who surprises you with the weights he's got on the stack, cause he looks so scrawny.

* Your status as far as lifestyle and money, i.e. do you roll like a baller?
I was living hand to mouth, with a budget of about $600 a month for at least 8 of the last 12 years. Lately I'm doing pretty well. I keep a nice pad, sometimes two nice pads. Can eat whatever I want, buy any toys I want. I did well both broke and rich, but advocate being rich.

* Do you have good style?
Not really. I could use some help with that.

* Personality-wise, where do you fall, are you an introvert or extrovert?
Introvert, however I'm very comfortable one on one. INTJ

* What is your style of game, do you bring the laid back cool guy game? Asshole game?
I act as if I've been dating the girl a long time. Instant comfortable erotic familiarity. I escalate fast and work towards an intimate connection. Girls often take up our relationship anthem song as "There is something in the way, you look at me". Passionate, with a paternal authority.

Post: #55

Either troll or subtle game denialism. One week suspension.

Post: #56

I'm not clear on the rules. If it's not looks denialism it's game denialism?

I thought Nomad77 was accused of being boring, but I see that he has performed a thought crime against the RSD Nation Church.

Post: #57

speaking from experience.. there's a lot of guys out there better looking than me and with more money than me, and i just shit all over them, most of them don't have spine, don't even know who they are and what they want.

if the girl you want, if she looks at some handsome dude and at you and she chooses him then it's your personality that will sway her in your direction. beside, she doesn't need another pretty boy in her life. she wants a leader, she wants to feel secure, a solid fun cool guy that can take care of her and protect her. next to that quality, looks is minor

that's my take on looks

Post: #58

To question whether or not Game works, or works as well as looks is almost illogical, since they are in many ways two parts of the same whole. It's good Game to make yourself look good. It's good Game to dress nice. It's good Game to have on good personal hygiene, white teeth, etc. It's good Game to work out and keep your body in basic good shape.

Also, phrasing it as if Game is some sort of tool, like Love Potion #9 or something is incorrect. Game isn’t just some mystical phrases, or Jedi mind tricks, at least not in its entirety. Game isn’t just special tactics such as “escalation”, “negs”, “ignore”, etc. Game is far more in-depth than that, because Game truly is an entire lifestyle and belief system! It honestly takes conforming to that belief system in order to have good Game, and thus be as successful as you can be with women.

Good game starts first with realizing that there are at least 3.5 BILLION women on this planet. That’s more than enough for every guy on this board to be successful. Even if only 1% of women find you attractive, that still leaves you with 35,000,000 women to choose from! If only 5% of that are attractive and within an agreeable age range, you still have 1,750,000 women, of your type, at your disposal! I don’t care how ugly you are, you have at least that many! This is why you shouldn’t fret over not finding someone, or put up with bad treatment.

Over the last year or so, in part to this board, I have gotten a lot better at having good Game. Part of that growth was due to the fact that I now take looking good seriously. I am by no means a pretty boy. I’m a dark skinned black man, 38 and 5’5! I am by no means what the average girl growing up is daydreaming about marrying. Especially when you consider that I generally date outside my race. Still, I keep my hair freshly cut and I work out regularly. I make sure my clothes and shoes up to date. I didn’t always worry about my clothes to the point where I would be considered trendy or fashionable. Now I do. I try to max out what I have. Also, someone on here said, “Most faces are at least OK, provided that they are weight proportionate.” or something to that affect. I tend to agree with that statement. Since I’m not considered ugly by most girls I meet, the fact that I’m nicely dressed, and try to stay toned keeps me at least open as an option in the mind of many girls. (Even if I do have to target 5’3 and below. Lol)

More importantly than my look, it’s my mindset that has changed, or is at least in the process of changing. I do not act needy with women. I don't do things that I don't really want to do, simply to please my date. I don't spend amounts of money I know I'm not comfortable spending, simply to please my date. I don't agree with everything she's saying, when I know it sounds like rubbish. These aren't tactics; it's just doing what I feel, along with the realization of one of the first understandings of game, there 3.5 BILLION women on this planet, with at least 1,750,000 women at my disposal! Once you really accept the fact that there are so many women, that as long as you stay active you'll never run out of them, it's sort of downhill from there. It simply over time changes how you think, and you start to act according to good Game. When I have a first date, I do not call her right after, asking if she had a good time! I simply assume she had a good time, because I’m a fun and interesting person to be around. After the first meet and initial first phone call, it’s rare that I call again. She can call me, since overall I’m one of the best men she has met. I think these things because I feel these things. And because I feel these things I set out to realize them. I work out. I go to school seeking the education to get a better job, though I already make $80,000 a year. I’m learning Krav Maga, etc. Always try to improve.

Good Game starts with believing that any woman is improving her life by knowing you and being in your circle. Many times you get women simply due to the fact that you’re just a better man overall than the other guys she has come in contact with. Maintaining a fashionable look, staying clean and in shape, etc. will make you feel more deserving, so you can really feel develop that belief.

You want to know a secret??? MOST guys don’t look like Brad Pitt, or even the 6’4 handsome guys at the night club some are referring to! Most guys are pretty average. You know what else… Most attractive women don’t have 30 Brad Pitts, or even 30 handsome club guys knocking down their door! They may have, and I do mean may have 1 or 2! Now, if that 1 or 2 isn’t really interested in them on a serious level, (most won’t be) then that equals a 0 for that girl. If that 1 or 2 is physically or verbally abusive, then that equals a 0 for that girl. If that 1 or 2 doesn’t have a decent job, (most won’t) then eventually that will equal a 0 for that girl. If that 1 or 2 is a cheater, (most will) then that equals a 0 for that girl. It takes talking to a lot of girls, but going after the best, never settling, never bowing down to bad treatment, never acting needy and looking the best YOU can will eventually overcome. Why? Because you have at least 1,750,000 women at your disposal!

Post: #59

Nice post URM. Now let me also ask you, what kind of game do you generally run? Night game? Day game? Social circle game?You're pretty close to my demographic, though I'm 3 inches taller.

Post: #60

(08-11-2012 01:05 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  I have been recently getting help on my hair and clothes.

Would you suggest talking to gay guys about this? Serious question Gio.

Post: #61

URM: "To question whether or not Game works, or works as well as looks is almost illogical, since they are in many ways two parts of the same whole. It's good Game to make yourself look good."

This is the way I think of it also.

"is an entire lifestyle and belief system! It honestly takes conforming to that belief system in order to have good Game, and thus be as successful as you can be with women."

I see what you are getting at here. You are talking about having boundaries and high standards. At first it seems like you are talking about abundance, but really your abundance allows you to have boundaries and high standards. I would quibble that you must hold a certain view in order to feel that abundance and so hold a masculine dominant frame of having strong boundaries. There are probably a few views that are compatible with that. For instance some people err on the side of looks denialism, money denialism, height denialism, and yet that doesn't seem to stop them from having abundance. They seem to think it helps. And some people don't require those mental denialist crutches at all. Like you for instance. You feel abundance while accurately positioning your various attributes relative to other men.

I like your approach. It doesn't rely on any sort of self hypnotic tricks of denying aspects of reality.

I've heard that those with the INTJ personality type are quite anal about thoughts fitting together into a tight systematic whole. We aren't grammar nazis, but are very picky about inconsistencies of logic. We can get very emotional about it.

Your way of thinking is to me more satisfying than others that rely on downplaying the importance of non "game" aspects of attraction. I do exactly like you, and call everything related to attraction game.

And you're right. I do need to whiten my teeth.

Post: #62

Looks play very important role.You realize it the harsh way when you cross 35.

Post: #63

(08-14-2012 05:14 AM)Greek kamaki Wrote:  Looks play very important role.You realize it the harsh way when you cross 35.

balkan power diminishes after 35 ?

Post: #64

(08-14-2012 05:14 AM)Greek kamaki Wrote:  Looks play very important role.You realize it the harsh way when you cross 35.

Elaborate.

Post: #65

You want to "look" 28-30. I am preparing for an international trip and fucked around posting in 15 cities my exact same bio and photos. I changed my age from 25-32.

While I'm a small sample 28-29 gets the most hits. You're "mature" but not "old".

Needless to say when putting up my international fake pipelining profile I'll be "29".

Age isn't the wall, your look is the wall. If you're 40 but look 28, you're in great shape. 35 but look 45? You're going to work harder.

Health/looks is first, money is second, girls are third. The first 2 help you longer term in the game of life.

Post: #66

(08-13-2012 12:07 AM)xsplat Wrote:  For me ugly man game is Don Juan de la Marco game - spontaneous instant passionate connection.

Interesting. I like reading your stuff xsplat. I run some similar type game sometimes. I pretend like I have a "spontaneous instant passionate connection" with almost every girl I meet.

Little does she know I am walking around the mall doing this with every cutie I see.

Post: #67

(08-14-2012 12:30 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  

(08-13-2012 12:07 AM)xsplat Wrote:  For me ugly man game is Don Juan de la Marco game - spontaneous instant passionate connection.

Interesting. I like reading your stuff xsplat. I run some similar type game sometimes. I pretend like I have a "spontaneous instant passionate connection" with almost every girl I meet.

Little does she know I am walking around the mall doing this with every cutie I see.

Well, maybe you aren't pretending.

When my health is good and my mojo is flowing, I literally fall in love ten times a day.

Post: #68

(08-13-2012 09:17 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  Nice post URM. Now let me also ask you, what kind of game do you generally run? Night game? Day game? Social circle game?You're pretty close to my demographic, though I'm 3 inches taller.

Well, I basically just approach girls during the day time. The last girl I pulled was at a mall in of all places a small town in Central California! If I say so myself, she is very attractive. (I wish it was OK to put pictures up here, witht he guarantee you can take them down again once they're viewed!) She's about 14 years younger than me. I just walked right up to her and said, "Excuse me, I'm sure you hear this a lot but you are very pretty. Since I can see you're already walking to the food court, mind if I join you over a jamba juice!" She laughed and said "sure', and we sat and started talking. I ended up getting her number, and we then hung out a once, where we made out, and now I'm going down there to see her again this wednesday. (The distance is a pain) If it wasn't for the fact that I have family in her area, I wouldn't pursue. Anyway, my point is she's attractive, not of my race, (white) and an inch taller than I am, before she puts on the boots with heels girls don't seem to be able to go without! It didn't take any magic words or tricks. It simply took looking decent in my clothes and approaching. It's your to win or lose after that, basded on your phone skills and ability to set up a second date. All of which is far easier if you just talk to her as you would a firned for the most part.

My other forum for meeting women is sports and dive bars. Also, the people speak against this since they are hit on a lot, I have been successful more than once with getting the cute bartender to go out with me! Just becasue a girl works in an establishment that you feel she gets hit on a lot at, doesn't mean you should ignore. You might have to be more subtle, but still strike! Anyway, I like bars becasue it's more relaxed quite and cozy. You can also hear yourself talk! Lastly, as a dark skinned black male, night clubs are generally so dark, I look like a cross between Wesley Snipes and Barney the Dinosaur! In other word, "Let there be light!" I have an OK face, so it works to my advantage sometimes to be seen by a woman, who at least 35% of the time finds me at least mildly attractive. And becasue it's not as loud as a night club, I can talk up on a number and sometimes some lovin'!

Post: #69

Got a reminder of the importance of my looks when a (mediocre drunk) girl said this weekend that she's not a slut but with me she would be slutty because, wow, look "he's so hot..." she said

Lots of easy fruit to be picked when you have great looks. For the best of the best, you can get them without good looks (fame/money/power/game) but not just with them.

Post: #70

(08-13-2012 11:25 PM)xsplat Wrote:  I see what you are getting at here. You are talking about having boundaries and high standards. At first it seems like you are talking about abundance, but really your abundance allows you to have boundaries and high standards. I would quibble that you must hold a certain view in order to feel that abundance and so hold a masculine dominant frame of having strong boundaries. There are probably a few views that are compatible with that. For instance some people err on the side of looks denialism, money denialism, height denialism, and yet that doesn't seem to stop them from having abundance. They seem to think it helps. And some people don't require those mental denialist crutches at all. Like you for instance. You feel abundance while accurately positioning your various attributes relative to other men.

I like your approach. It doesn't rely on any sort of self hypnotic tricks of denying aspects of reality.

I've heard that those with the INTJ personality type are quite anal about thoughts fitting together into a tight systematic whole. We aren't grammar nazis, but are very picky about inconsistencies of logic. We can get very emotional about it.

Your way of thinking is to me more satisfying than others that rely on downplaying the importance of non "game" aspects of attraction. I do exactly like you, and call everything related to attraction game.

And you're right. I do need to whiten my teeth.

The "abundance" of women is the first weapon of Game. Being where pretty women are should be your first strategy. I do not deny the role looks play, but I feel it is just a part of the whole. I also think a person with just looks and not good Game, can be defeated by a person with good Game. Good Game takes a lot of self control. Self control is the thing soooooo many men don't have. If you have good Game you automatically have self control. A pretty boy without good Game will be likely to answer calls on the first ring, call certain women too much, text too much, stalk her on facebook, be over complimentary, accepting of rude behavior so as not to ruin his chances of hitting it, and just a myriad of other things that will wreck his long term and many times even short term chances with a particular girl. That doesn't mean the pretty boy is totally clueless or a mama's boy, or extremely beta. Like someone pointed out, very attractive guys are generally looked up to and placed in positions of power, thereby bullding up a certain level of alphaness as a consequence. nevertheless, unless they've studied and actually given themselves over to good Game, they will still make the above mistakes. The rapper Suga Free, an actual pimp I do believe, had a really insightful line in one of his songs.... "The lion ain't got no courage and the scarecrow ain't got no brain, and if you can't control you dick then that means you ain't got no Game!" Wow! I don't care what anyone says, that's powerful stuff! And everytime I've failed to live by those words, things have gone wrong!! At any rate, a guy with good game has that self control, a non-needy vibe, advanced knowledge in human behavior, as well as maximized his looks. This is why a guy with good Game is seen as more powerful than someone relying mostly on good looks.

Post: #71

(08-14-2012 02:45 PM)Urban Renaissance Man Wrote:  (I wish it was OK to put pictures up here, witht he guarantee you can take them down again once they're viewed!)

You can. Just add the photo as an attachment rather than an image link. Then the photo goes into your own storage space on Roosh's server. You can then delete it anytime you want from your control panel.

Post: #72

Looks are definitely important. Game is as much about demonstrating higher value as it is being higher value and first impression is the most important threshold in game as it determines whether or not you make it past your opener. Good looks enable you to show value and have a good first impression once you walk into a club. They are not an end-all/be-all, but a proper preparation to prevent poor performance, you still must know how to escalate.

Post: #73

(08-14-2012 06:53 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

(08-14-2012 02:45 PM)Urban Renaissance Man Wrote:  (I wish it was OK to put pictures up here, witht he guarantee you can take them down again once they're viewed!)

You can. Just add the photo as an attachment rather than an image link. Then the photo goes into your own storage space on Roosh's server. You can then delete it anytime you want from your control panel.

Ok, I'll give it a go. This is the one girl I mentioned I met at the mall. Now, I happen to rate her about an 8, though naturally this is my personal taste. I have kissed, but not hit yet, with the plan to spend the day with her this coming up wednesday. Again, she's rather young and lives quite a distance away, so I'm not viewing her as anything major serious. Just someone to kick it with while I'm in that neck of the woods, as well as maybe take quick trips to LA or Vegas with. She has sent me quite a few pics (Common young attention whore I guess) but I won't flood the board with them, unless you fellas feel you need another view to make a better assessment. I'll leave these pics up for a day or 2, then take them down. By the way, I have no idea how to crop, shrink or otherwise alter pics, so if they come across crazy, please forgive me, and offer some advice.

   
   
   
   

Post: #74

Any chic with part of her hair blond and part brown will put out quick. Have fun!

Post: #75

Sometimes people will come to one rational conclusion, yet harbour a conflicting emotional one.

You’ll notice that with women a lot. They’ll agree with you, only to days later start the same argument all over again as if you’d never had that discussion. Because they still FEEL the same way.

The reason the “confidence trumps all” meme has been especially irritating is that not only is it not true, but it's in the long run unhelpful. Young men could be influenced to neglect their livelihoods in favour of working on their night club skills. That could be a regret in later years. Or even simply neglect the gym and teeth whitener. All for the love of irrational self confidence.

I get a lot of self esteem from thinking of myself as a ladies man. But for an ugly guy, we get even more self esteem realizing that ugliness is a serious handicap. For guys who are tall and handsome, they can get self esteem either from looks, or from their social skills if they downplay the value of their looks. Mediocre looking guys are more likely to want to value the power of their game.

Also, nuance is taxing. It’s much easier to go with an initial gut reaction, and fill in any blanks later with rationalizations. Black and white thinking about the looks versus game argument rears up constantly. People on one side or the other will have a very difficult time saying the word “both”. Or if they can, they will quickly make the sign of the cross and mutter a prayer to the Gods of game “yes, but without game you’re fucked, money alone won’t get you laid if you are a dork, if you had to choose you’d choose game, game will get you better girls!”. Rarely are people emotionally satisfied with just saying “both”. It’s as if they are really quite nervous about losing self esteem and confidence that game is a superior asset. Because they NEED that self esteem.

Whatever man. Work everything you can. Take the bad with the good. It’s a big planet with a lot of girls on it – there are niches out there for all of us who work what we’ve got – that’s enough. And besides, a strong ego is in itself attractive. And a strong ego takes practice. Not self hypnosis.

I mean, what’s more attractive. A guy who doesn’t realize that his ugliness costs him physical attraction (setting himself up to be impervious to social cues), or a guy who realizes the handicap but still manages to approach and date hot girls anyway?

It’s not wise to advocate delusion when there are more attractive alternatives.

Ugly guys can be perfectly aware of our handicaps and function at peak effectiveness. It’s just a matter of habituating your thought patterns to not place pride in appearance, and that happens as you date hot girls. You get your pride not from who looks at you in the mirror, but from who looks at you in your bed. You're a man who fights adversity and triumphs out of a fierce force of habit. That's a solid source of real pride - ugliness being a handicap is a source of pride.

Even in new situations where you are getting harsh feedback, being looked up and down with that bitch “who the fuck are you to deign to hit on me” attitude that western girls love to spit, a long and strong background of dating hotties will just make her seem silly. That kind of confidence can be won the hard slow way. By dating older girls as a younger guy, and working your way up the ladder. That’s a confidence with roots. That and the other realistic roots of knowing that you truly are superior in most ways, ways that truly count to girls. Because you worked on it and that's what all the girls and all your stalkers tell you.

Rational self confidence doesn't care which is better - looks or game. "Both" is emotionally satisfying. Because it's true.

And let's just admit it. This "argument" is about which stance makes us feel better about ourselves. I'm suggesting there is a way to feel good about yourself even while realizing your demerits. Not only that, but it's more attractive than not realizing your demerits.

You'll see for yourself when you get the looks of incredulity for dating so out of your league, and having the young girl be so obviously doting and smitten. THAT feels good.

And the hateful stares from the matrons. THAT feels good.

Without the handicaps of adversity, where would be the satisfaction when out in public? If she's not out of your league, then so what?