Post: #1

Day game players know that flakes are the part of the game. No longer do I feel elated when I get a number - in fact, I almost expect the number to flake!

Girls today give their number out like candy and the vast majority of these numbers go nowhere. When I get a number, 4 times out of 5 one of the following happens:

- she doesn't respond to the initial text
- she responds to the initial few texts, but later stops responding
- she responds to all texts, but is flakey and non-commital when asked out on a date
- she responds to all texts and agrees to the date, then flakes out on the day of the date

It's not only me. Most day game players I know experience the same thing. Even Paul Janka, likely the top commerical day game player (150+ bangs) concedes to banging only 1 in 9 numbers.

Which leads me to wonder - why are girls you meet during the day so much more reluctant to date than girls you meet on online dating sites? I understand the pervasive "stranger danger" phenomenon in paranoid America, but isn't the guy you meet on POF/OKC (whom you've never actually seen or heard his voice) more of a stranger than the guy who chatted you up for a few minutes?

Gmac claims to have lined up 100 dates in the past year via OKC alone. How many day game players guys can match this? Even Krauser, who dedicated 3 years of roaming around Europe and America to day game and who lives in London (a city abound with lonely EE girls) concedes to only 50 lays (or a little over 1 new bang per month).

I'm ready to quit day game altogether because for all the time and energy expended, the ROI seems much lower than online game.

Post: #2

My bang/bj conversation rate from a date is only maybe 40%, so I can't speak for GMAC, but date doesn't mean insta-lay. Besides, she'll often not look like her pics.

Online is such a pain and time consuming that once I meet a cool girl or two I'll gladly stop seeking out new girls and be happy with them for however long. I also find online relatively easy, but that's because I'm taller/better looking/funnier than 90% of the ugly dudes in DC. And even then, I get a 25% reply rate at BEST. Usually 20% is more accurate. And maybe only a third of those become in person dates.

Post: #3

You have to show some kind of value so they won't want to flake. It's not enough these days to be cute and funny.
You have to offer something more than the 100 other men that kick it to them everyday.

Post: #4

Totally disagree. I've had countless more day game dates than online dates. So much that I'm not even doing online game anymore, the reward to energy invested makes no sense to me, I'd rather be out IRL because I get more for my time / energy invested, and those rejections make you stronger. There's no self development in online rejection. I don't build confidence from online rejection, IRL, definitely. The playing field is more in my favor IRL, I can project who I am and what I want more than online, you can't impose your dominance / confidence online like you can IRL.
What about day game insta-dating? Vibe for a bit then bounce, that's my approach, no quick #closes, the #close only comes if the interaction went well and we have to part. I think you're talking about quick approaches with the intent of # closing then trying to date later, that's low percentage and should only be done when an insta-date cannot be done. She'll flake because you'll get the # after a few minutes, rather than insta-dating and having an interaction, she'll remember you as the guy who asked for the number, not the guy she had a great time with. How many questions are you waiting for her to ask you before you #close? If she's not showing interest in you, don't close, continue your game until she bites.
Janka's game is about quick # closing, not insta-dating. His pickups, according to his NYC guide, are done within 2 minutes. You're in, you're out. It's a great confidence boost to start opening because you have nothing to lose, it's practically over before it starts. I've used it word for word and it works to get the #, though it's a huge numbers game, the numbers highly flake because the girls base you on nothing more than 2 minutes. Why am I going to get the number only to text her later to meetup when I could have done that right then and there?
You're comparing completely different things with Gmac's 100 dates and Krauser's 50 lays, any conclusion from this comparison is completely unfounded.

Post: #5

tjuan, I got flaked on by a girl who I'd gone on a 2 hour instant date with. Instant dates mean nothing if they don't lead to a bang. I banged a girl with whom my initial convrsation was no more than 8 minites. The more I do day game, the more I'm finding that the amount of time I spend in set has little bearing on my flake ratio.

Quoting Paul Janka:

Take my word for it since I’ve spent years doing the research (or do it yourself and waste time): you will gain nothing by talking longer and possibly you’ll torpedo the opportunity. Once you’ve gotten her number, move on. First of all, it’s likely that you’ll say something that works against you. The “stranger” light is blinking in her head and plenty can disqualify you. If you’ve got the number, you’ve already been qualified – what more do you want? As I’ve said, women travel this world looking for reasons to disqualify otherwise decent men. If she’s given you the digits, you’re done for the moment. Save that funny line you’re dying to use.

The other reason to move on is that there are other girls around, and since it’s a numbers game, you need to get to work. On a good day, I may get seven numbers of women I think are quite attractive. I’ve found that I sleep with 11% of the women whose numbers I get (more on this later). That breaks down to two girls for every three days of numbers, more-or-less.

But back to the categories in women’s heads. They’re like bins, these categories. And what I’ve found is that you can’t move from stranger to intimate or even friend/acquaintance by bullshitting on the street. You’re better off saving it. When you text her that night, you’re still the “guy from the street,” whether you spent 30 seconds saying “hi” or thirty minutes sharing about where you went to school and what you do for work. This has been corroborated by another player here in NYC. Accept your loss ratio and work on top-line. Trying to make an “impression” on each girl also is futile because you’re up against another tenet of the game:

Basically, if the girl is fun and carefree, the forty-five seconds you spend are sufficient; she’ll respond and you’ll meet and shag. If she’s difficult – which is a general term for women who are skeptical, suspicious, haughty, bitchy, condescending and/or rude – no amount of chatting is going to overcome her normal disposition. You won’t fuck her with a 30 second stop-and-chat, but you won’t fuck her with the investment of an hour of top game. Let her go. That’s the beauty of the game. Next!

- Paul Janka, Attraction Formula (p. 24)

Post: #6

Too many variables. I've seen his pickups and they seem to just be him going up to a cute girl talking for a minute or two and getting the number. Most of them are street approaches and his vibe seems extremely playerish as well. All of these things contribute to a high flakiness level.

Contrary to what the game community preaches, I think seeming like a player loses you more bangs than it gains.

Also it depends on the venue, I've talked to girls in bookstores gotten numbers and then not heard from them. It's a lot lower percentage than other places.

There's also a familiarity factor and persistence that is often overlooked. If she flakes out what do you do? If you can game full time then maybe you don't give a shit cause you have so many prospects. I can't so I'll sometimes milk that number for all it's worth. I've had bangs up to a year later from this.

People underestimate the power of comfort and familiarity when it comes to getting with girls. It's as if a switch changes in their mind, and all of sudden you catch her at the right moment and she'll have sex with you. Of course most pick up advice will call this 'beta' cause you are 'chasing her' But how is remaining on friendly terms and talking once a month 'chasing'? If you both felt the vibe and attraction was obvious(it's easy to tell) then maybe the time just wasn't right. Doesn't mean it won't be right in a month of two. Patience and persistence pay.

Online game has it's own set of problems. I don't doubt Gmac's claim of a 100 dates in a year at all. I've had streaks where I was going on 2-3 dates a week consistently for months. It's totally doable. Online is easier for racking up quick numbers with average to slightly above average girls. Once in a blue moon you'll get a hottie. The looks of girls I can get in day game on average far outweigh the ones I can get on the internet.

For me I like to do both. I don't feel that rush of accomplishment when I succeed with an online girl, but for quick fun and variety it's great.
Day game is more of a courage and confidence builder and the level of talent you can get is higher.

In the end I believe relative efficiency invreases in both when you pick the right girls that match your personality and vibe. Everyone has a niche, it's just up to you to find it.

Post: #7

I had a 2 hour instant dinner date once with a girl I met on campus via cold approach. When I texted her a couple days later she didn't respond. Is it because I didn't game her well enough? I don't know, she spent two hours with me that first day so she must have enjoyed my company. It's more likely that she flaked due to a reason entirely independent of me or my game.

My buddy went on an hour long lunch date with another girl. The same thing happened to him.

The most seasoned day gamers will concede that even the most seemingly flawlessly executed pickup can result in a flake. I've had had pickups that lasted 1 minute where the girls show up, and pickups that lasted 1 hour that flaked. And this is why spending so much time in set investing in any one girl is futile in the long run.

Now if I had spent those 2 hours approaching more girls (not wasting time spending >10 minutes in any one set) and collecting a few more numbers, I likely I would've found at least a girl or two who would've hooked. With some tight text/phone game, I could build comfort, set up multiple dates, and ultimately get more bangs.

Keep in mind whether you spend 10 minutes or 2 hours with her, when it's a cold approach you're still a "random" in the end!

If she flakes, it could be because you didn't game her well. Or it could be due to a circumstance entirely out of your control (ie. she's pining for another guy, an ex in the picture, swamped with work, her cat died etc.) Unlike with social circles where you have multiple windows to see her, day game only affords you a narrow window of opportunity to capitalize on the emotional momentum of the initial interaction, set up the date and seal the deal - generally 1 week at the most. A lot of shit can happen in that week.

With more time spent in-field, I'm starting to believe that most day game flakes are not the result of "bad game", but due to circumstances entirely outside of your control. A day game pickup that results in a lay can be attributed to just having the good fortune to be the right guy for the right girl in the right mood at the right moment in her life.

Approach and number-close more of these girls to improve your chance of striking upon one who's DTF. This is why seasoned day game players like Paul Janka don't invest too much time in any one girl, instead relying on a tight rap, non-verbal masculinity and an element of mystery to hook a girl. Because guys who've spent time running in the trenches and banged a lot of girls via day game understand that fundamentally it's really just a numbers game.

Post: #8

When I was starting out it used to bother the hell out of me when the girl who was being SO nice and enthusiastic and at times volunteering the number without asking, wouldn't even reply back. But with time and experience, like most other players out there, I've come to realize that it is IMPOSSIBLE to eliminate flaking completely, and now I just don't give a damn crap if a chick doesn't reply back. And this is not because I have conditioned myself to be that way, but because I'm pursuing too many chicks at once and my mind naturally fragments the my attention to the point where no one chick is really important. It's amusing at times when a funny cycle plays along with the chicks: for ex. on day1 I'll message girl1, girl2, girl3 - girl 3 agrees, then on day2 I message girl4 and girl5 - girl2 agrees, then on day3 - girl1, on day4- girl5 and so on!

One more thing, make sure your texts are to the point and void of any "fluff" or attempts at witty banter - this is something that used to cost me dearly. Refer to Roosh's texting guide if you need pointers.