Post: #151

(03-27-2012 11:01 PM)assman Wrote:  Whether he qualifies in your mind to tutor anybody is besides the point. He was doing it. I'm guessing that guys who hate black people don't volunteer to tutor black kids. Is that an unreasonable assumption?

A better assumption would be "community service", but that as proof he's not prejudice? I'll pass. Go listen to all the times he calls 911 every time he sees a Black person in the neighborhood that he doesn't recognize. As if everyone who comes to the neighborhood that you don't recognize, doesn't possibly live there, have friends or family that live there, or is tending to business with someone that lives there.

(03-27-2012 09:54 PM)assman Wrote:  You have not identified any evidence that points to Zimmerman being guilty of anything.

That is not my job. We have paid public servants who are supposed to prove his guilt. But I will say I don't believe he's innocent, based off the evidence so far. I see things for what they are, not for what I want them to be. His side and the police are doing a lot of shit that an innocent person or innocent people just don't have a reason to do.

Post: #152

(03-27-2012 11:14 PM)jariel Wrote:  

(03-27-2012 11:01 PM)assman Wrote:  Whether he qualifies in your mind to tutor anybody is besides the point. He was doing it. I'm guessing that guys who hate black people don't volunteer to tutor black kids. Is that an unreasonable assumption?

A better assumption would be "community service", but that as proof he's not prejudice? I'll pass. Go listen to all the times he calls 911 every time he sees a Black person in the neighborhood that he doesn't recognize. As if everyone who comes to the neighborhood that you don't recognize, doesn't possibly live there, have friends or family that live there, or is tending to business with someone that lives there.

(03-27-2012 09:54 PM)assman Wrote:  You have not identified any evidence that points to Zimmerman being guilty of anything.

That is not my job. We have paid public servants who are supposed to prove his guilt. But I will say I don't believe he's innocent, based off the evidence so far. I see things for what they are, not for what I want them to be. His side and the police are doing a lot of shit that an innocent person or innocent people just don't have a reason to do.

Those paid public servants who were actually on scene, spoke directly to Zimmerman, saw the physical evidence, and the testimony of eyewitnesses believed there was no violation of the law. They are only supposed to 'prove his guilt' if they think a crime was committed, but they obviously dont think any crime was committed which is why they haven't brought charges.

Post: #153

(03-27-2012 10:22 PM)Brian Wrote:  If Trayvon would have said "hey, I understand your concern, I'm actually in town visiting my dad, he lives over there" do you think Zimmerman would have shot him? Of course not.

Actually, yes. You've implied here that one can avoid racial profiling (and all of the dangerous crap that follows it) by being polite. That doesn't work. You can get stopped, arrested, threatened or killed for doing nothing in particular.

Quote:I'd be willing to be that most if not all of the people on here defending Trayvon are black, and had the roles been reversed they would be saying it was ok because the shooter was defending himself from a violent attacker. That makes them hypocritical racists.

(03-27-2012 10:54 PM)Brian Wrote:  If this makes every wanna be thug ganster, white, black, hispanic, or asian think twice before attacking someone because they may end up dead then maybe this wasnt such a bad thing.

No words-I'm done.

Post: #154

(03-27-2012 11:19 PM)Brian Wrote:  Those paid public servants who were actually on scene, spoke directly to Zimmerman, saw the physical evidence, and the testimony of eyewitnesses believed there was no violation of the law. They are only supposed to 'prove his guilt' if they think a crime was committed, but they obviously dont think any crime was committed which is why they haven't brought charges.

You mean the ones that wanted to arrest him that night?

Quote:The lead homicide investigator in the shooting of unarmed teenager Trayvon Martin recommended that neighborhood watch captain George Zimmerman be charged with manslaughter the night of the shooting, multiple sources told ABC News.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-...3J1NdWQsz4

Post: #155

Is someone gonna post the picture of Plies (the rapper) with a new zimmerman t-shirt? I don't know if it violates forum rules, but I'm pretty sure some sissy la-la's will lose their shit and overreact in here.

Post: #156

(03-27-2012 11:22 PM)jariel Wrote:  

(03-27-2012 11:19 PM)Brian Wrote:  Those paid public servants who were actually on scene, spoke directly to Zimmerman, saw the physical evidence, and the testimony of eyewitnesses believed there was no violation of the law. They are only supposed to 'prove his guilt' if they think a crime was committed, but they obviously dont think any crime was committed which is why they haven't brought charges.

You mean the ones that wanted to arrest him that night?

Quote:The lead homicide investigator in the shooting of unarmed teenager Trayvon Martin recommended that neighborhood watch captain George Zimmerman be charged with manslaughter the night of the shooting, multiple sources told ABC News.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-...3J1NdWQsz4

well why didnt they arrest him? because there was not enough evidence to prove a crime was committed.

Post: #157

(03-27-2012 11:14 PM)jariel Wrote:  

(03-27-2012 11:01 PM)assman Wrote:  Whether he qualifies in your mind to tutor anybody is besides the point. He was doing it. I'm guessing that guys who hate black people don't volunteer to tutor black kids. Is that an unreasonable assumption?

A better assumption would be "community service", but that as proof he's not prejudice? I'll pass. Go listen to all the times he calls 911 every time he sees a Black person in the neighborhood that he doesn't recognize. As if everyone who comes to the neighborhood that you don't recognize, doesn't possibly live there, have friends or family that live there, or is tending to business with someone that lives there.

Got a link to a source that says his volunteer tutoring was actually community service for some prior offense? If so, I will retract that as supporting the notion that Zimmerman isn't a racist. Or are you just speculating? But we're not allowed to speculate as to why Martin has a bag with traces of weed, or why he was flashing cash, etc.

OK, the 911 calls - as I recall he's been neighborhood watch for some time. I don't know the exact # of years (if anyone does, please post it), but let's assume 4 years. Now I think I read that he made 90(?) calls to report suspicious persons. That's just under 2 calls a month. Given that we are talking about Sanford, I think it's safe to say that he wasn't calling about every black person he didn't recognize. Also, if he was calling about every single black person, do you really think they would have been sending an officer out this last time? Does the Sanford PD have an enormous budget that they can send an officer out every time a known wolf-cryer crys wolf?

(03-27-2012 11:14 PM)jariel Wrote:  

(03-27-2012 09:54 PM)assman Wrote:  You have not identified any evidence that points to Zimmerman being guilty of anything.

That is not my job. We have paid public servants who are supposed to prove his guilt. But I will say I don't believe he's innocent, based off the evidence so far. I see things for what they are, not for what I want them to be. His side and the police are doing a lot of shit that an innocent person or innocent people just don't have a reason to do.

OK, so it's your HUNCH that he's guilty. Based on everyone's hunch, this guy, who may be totally innocent, is going to live in fear for who knows how long, maybe the rest of his life. Fear for his own life and that of his family. All because people rushed to judgment.

Post: #158

(03-27-2012 11:44 PM)assman Wrote:  OK, so it's your HUNCH that he's guilty. Based on everyone's hunch, this guy, who may be totally innocent, is going to live in fear for who knows how long, maybe the rest of his life. Fear for his own life and that of his family. All because people rushed to judgment.

It's not just me, the police didn't believe his story.

You have to step back and look at what's going on here.

The police department is leaking information now that the Special Prosecutor has come out and said she might just charge Zimmerman directly and not even bother with the grand jury that is supposed to convene on April 10th.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/natio...?track=rss

They are now saying they wanted to arrest Zimmerman that night, but it was the DA's office who said no don't arrest him.

They have been thrown under the bus, and now the the SP is lining herself up to be the one to come in and save the day.

This is Zimmerman's story, according to the police:

Quote:Leaks from the police report detail Zimmerman telling police he was heading back to his truck when Martin knocked him down with a punch to his nose, jumped on him, repeatedly banged his head on the ground, then tried to grab Zimmerman's gun.

In a struggle for Zimmerman's gun, the watchman shot the teenager, Zimmerman told police.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-...3Kf_dWQsz4

His story is that Trayvon, who is visiting from out of town away from his own turf and doesn't have anyone there to back him up, is about 25 yards from home, and has just peacefully walked to 7-11 to buy candy and a drink, suddenly becomes a madman who is now attacking a grown man, unprovoked, to the point where, he actually goes for the man's gun to kill him?

I mean I'm sorry dude, I just don't have any reason to believe that. To me, that sounds like a story from a man who has an incentive to lie because he doesn't want to go to jail.

The witnesses who have spoke out against him, Trayvon's girlfriend, they have no reason to lie, their individual freedoms are not at stake.

That's the story that the police just didn't believe, and it didn't take them days of investigating, they didn't believe it from the onset.

All this noise about weed, tutoring black kids, is just diversionary tacts from the media. Zimmerman's friend Joe Oliver, the black dude who they pimped out for the "he's not a racist" meme, had a breakdown on national TV tonight, he said he doesn't even know what his role is in this.

1 +1 always equals 2, and some guys really want it to be 3.

Post: #159

(03-28-2012 12:34 AM)jariel Wrote:  

(03-27-2012 11:44 PM)assman Wrote:  OK, so it's your HUNCH that he's guilty. Based on everyone's hunch, this guy, who may be totally innocent, is going to live in fear for who knows how long, maybe the rest of his life. Fear for his own life and that of his family. All because people rushed to judgment.

All this noise about weed, tutoring black kids, is just diversionary tacts from the media.

Honestly, I think the people who are highlighting these questionable things about Trayvon and showing reasons why Zimmerman may not be the demon he was made out to be are just trying to get people to chill the hell out and look at the facts - they're assertions aren't aggressive towards Trayvon but defensive towards the boiling tension. Highlighting them does nothing more than counter the one-sided shitstorm that has been going on since this whole thing happened.

None of these "facts" about Trayvon say anything about him or what happened. What they do say is that people need to take a breath, slow down, and look at the actual facts for a second before condemning someone based on something we all don't know anything about yet.

A ton of conclusions were drawn about Zimmerman from day one. Now, people who are looking into it further are saying, wow, there's a lot more to this than meets the eye.

Throw in reports of Zimmerman allegedly being the one screaming and the back of his head bleeding, etc, and I'm glad people are at least looking into it further instead of allowing the entire nation to run full bore into their witch hunt.

The media lied to us, again. No matter who was guilty, they painted the picture a certain way on purpose to stir racial tensions. And what they did is liable to pop off some race riots and get more people killed. I'm sure it did their ratings wonders.

Looking at these new photos and new conjectures just shows there's more going on than anyone knows. It isn't meant for conclusions to be drawn.

It's not about attacking a victim. We still don't know who was the victim, and I personally haven't drawn a conclusion about it yet myself - how could I? You read articles out there and you're hearing two very different sides of a story - it'll take time to figure out what went down, but people are calling for blood anyways. People who have nothing to do with the case but assume that because the shooter was half-white that it's racism.

The public needs to chill out cause this whole situation has the potential to get out of control. That's why these other things about Trayvon are being discussed. It's not about soiling his character; it's about getting a little perspective and breaking apart the one-sided story that came out at first.

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #160

Post: #161

(03-28-2012 12:34 AM)jariel Wrote:  It's not just me, the police didn't believe his story.

You have to step back and look at what's going on here.

The police department is leaking information now that the Special Prosecutor has come out and said she might just charge Zimmerman directly and not even bother with the grand jury that is supposed to convene on April 10th.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/natio...?track=rss

They are now saying they wanted to arrest Zimmerman that night, but it was the DA's office who said no don't arrest him.

They have been thrown under the bus, and now the the SP is lining herself up to be the one to come in and save the day.

LOL, I'm already stepped back. I never rushed to judgment in the first place. We just don't know yet what happened.

As for the special prosecutor, she's not saying she feels she has enough evidence to charge him, she's saying they are conducting their probe, and that based on the results it's possible they will charge him, which is fair enough. Though we have to appreciate that there is enormous political pressure for this to go to trial. At this point, I think everyone understands we are going to have a lot of rioting on our hands if no charges are filed because so many people made up their minds from day one given how the media spun the story.

(03-28-2012 04:40 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  A ton of conclusions were drawn about Zimmerman from day one. Now, people who are looking into it further are saying, wow, there's a lot more to this than meets the eye.

Throw in reports of Zimmerman allegedly being the one screaming and the back of his head bleeding, etc, and I'm glad people are at least looking into it further instead of allowing the entire nation to run full bore into their witch hunt.

The media lied to us, again. No matter who was guilty, they painted the picture a certain way on purpose to stir racial tensions. And what they did is liable to pop off some race riots and get more people killed. I'm sure it did their ratings wonders.

Looking at these new photos and new conjectures just shows there's more going on than anyone knows. It isn't meant for conclusions to be drawn.

It's not about attacking a victim. We still don't know who was the victim, and I personally haven't drawn a conclusion about it yet myself - how could I? You read articles out there and you're hearing two very different sides of a story - it'll take time to figure out what went down, but people are calling for blood anyways. People who have nothing to do with the case but assume that because the shooter was half-white that it's racism.

The public needs to chill out cause this whole situation has the potential to get out of control. That's why these other things about Trayvon are being discussed. It's not about soiling his character; it's about getting a little perspective and breaking apart the one-sided story that came out at first.

Well said.

Post: #162

I'm pretty sure the Treyvon Martin/George Zimmerman issue falls on racial lines.

Blacks are on Martin's side. Whites are on George's side (even though George isn't white).

That's just the way it is.

Post: #163

(03-28-2012 08:53 AM)ATTA Wrote:  That's just the way it is.

All indications are that Tupac and Biggie were killed by other African Americans. I can't even imagine how much drama there would have been if there was a racial aspect to their cases.

Post: #164

Pictures of Trayvon taken 9 days before his death...

http://globalgrind.com/news/trayvon-mart...os?gpage=3

Post: #165

I'm sure there are plenty of cute and cuddly pictures of Hitler as well but that doesnt mean he didnt put all the Jews in the oven

Post: #166

So this Reeses Peanut Butter Cup shirt wearing kid attacks and beats up a grown, in his prime, man that outweighs him by 100 lbs and tries to take his gun?

Post: #167

Good Explanation

http://video.msnbc.msn.com/the-last-word...6#46874748

Post: #168

Not Martin case related, but a timely reminder to the anti-concealed-carry crowd. I can guarantee you SWPL liberals who get caught up in these types of flash mob attacks have a different outlook on guns. I guess we should all tuck tail and run away (and hope we don't get caught, or trip and fall, or get brained by a bottle) before defending ourselves. Hell, that sounds like such a good idea, we should make it a legal requirement - i.e., duty to retreat.

From this morning: http://www.kare11.com/news/article/96986...inneapolis

Post: #169

(03-28-2012 10:18 AM)JayMillz Wrote:  So this Reeses Peanut Butter Cup shirt wearing kid attacks and beats up a grown, in his prime, man that outweighs him by 100 lbs and tries to take his gun?

Police re-enacted the crime out with Zimmerman the day after it happened, and they still wanted to charge him with negligent homicide.

His story just isn't believable, so you have all these naysayers who are essentially saying they don't believe the police.

Quote:Zimmerman, 28, has told police he acted in self defense. The shooting, and what Martin's family and their supporters say was a lack of follow-up on the part of police and prosecutors, has ignited a national discussion about race and racial profiling.

In its report, CBS also lays out some of the evidence about what police did in the hours and days after Martin's death. It reports that Zimmerman was questioned for five hours on Feb. 26, that the next day "detectives re-enacted the shooting with Zimmerman at the scene" and that "for the next two weeks, lead investigator Chris Serino pursued a manslaughter charge against Zimmerman."

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2012...tins-death

Post: #170

Pictures of Trayvon on Facebook with his shirt off, pants hanging down, and donning gold teeth......pictures of him in his football uniform. Pictures of him with his father. Pictures of him with a little girl. George Oliver speaking up for Zimmerman. The media's sensationalizing/capitalizing on this story (which is nothing new). George Oliver being attacked on MSNBC (which can be biased since they tend to be Democratic), etc., etc. It's going too far.

Trayvon Martin should and probably would still be alive today if it weren't for one simple fact - that Zimmerman took it upon himself to follow Trayvon when he was told that he didn't need to.

Supposed Trayvon was the aggressor. After all, based on Zimmerman's story, Travyon punched him in the face as he was getting back into his car. Then started banging his head against the curb (or something like that). If that's the case, and if that's what actually happened, then Zimmerman most likely felt that his life was in danger and shot Trayvon. Okay. Cool.

But if Zimmerman would have never kept following Trayvon in the first place, then he would have never put himself in this type of situation. He sees Trayvon walking through his neighborhood. To him, Trayvon looks suspicious so he calls the police. Cool. During his call, he doesn't know what race Trayvon is so I can't call this a racist act on Zimmerman's part. At this time, he seems like a concerned resident. Cool. As he gets a better look at Trayvon, he's able to see that he is AA and gives a description of what he is wearing. Ok, cool. Now the police tells him that he does not need to follow Trayvon............and that should've been the end of it. He did is duty as a neighborhood watch person (which was self-appointed, never officially appointed to him by the neighborhood). He saw someone whom he deemed was suspiscious, he called the police, he gave a description. That's all he needed and should have done.

So my question is and will contine to be why Zimmerman felt the need to follow Trayvon? Was Trayvon exhibiting behavior that would cause him to think that he was there to break into one of the homes in the neighborhood? What was he doing? Why did Zimmerman follow him?

If Trayvon was up to no good, and was there to break into someone's home, then the police would've caught him. If Trayvon was simply walking back to his father's house minding his business, then the police most likely would've stopped and questioned him because he looked "suspicious" (based on Zimmerman's call). I doubt that Trayvon would've attacked the police.

No one (other than Zimmerman) will ever know what could've happened because Zimmerman decided to follow him and "become" the police. By doing this he put himself in potential harm's way. Again, why do this?

He was obviously tired of all of the break-ins in his neighborhood so felt compelled to do something about it. I can understand that. If I saw someone whom I thought looked suspicious, better yet, exhibiting suspicious behavior (looking into different cars, walking around with a weapon), I would call the police too. Then I would sit back and LET the police handle it. Why would I follow this person? Especially not knowing what state of mind this person is in......or if this person has a gat, etc.

Why has that simple fact not been addressed?

Post: #171

(03-28-2012 11:35 AM)JayMillz Wrote:  If Trayvon was up to no good, and was there to break into someone's home, then the police would've caught him. If Trayvon was simply walking back to his father's house minding his business, then the police most likely would've stopped and questioned him because he looked "suspicious" (based on Zimmerman's call). I doubt that Trayvon would've attacked the police.

No one (other than Zimmerman) will ever know what could've happened because Zimmerman decided to follow him and "become" the police. By doing this he put himself in potential harm's way. Again, why do this?

He was obviously tired of all of the break-ins in his neighborhood so felt compelled to do something about it. I can understand that. If I saw someone whom I thought looked suspicious, better yet, exhibiting suspicious behavior (looking into different cars, walking around with a weapon), I would call the police too. Then I would sit back and LET the police handle it. Why would I follow this person? Especially not knowing what state of mind this person is in......or if this person has a gat, etc.

Why has that simple fact not been addressed?

What makes you think the police would have caught him? Who is to say that they would have arrived w/in 5 minutes and he wouldnt have already been long gone? Burgulars get away all the time. Based on what Zimmerman said on the 911 call, something to the effect of "these f'in punks always get away" it sounds like the majority of the crimes that were committed recently were unsolved. There is nothing wrong with what he did. Again, Trayvon wanted to be a bad ass gangster and he messed with the wrong guy because he was packing. The lesson here is that if you dont want to put your life at risk dont commit felony assault on someone.

Post: #172

(03-28-2012 11:45 AM)Brian Wrote:  Trayvon wanted to be a bad ass gangster and he messed with the wrong guy because he was packing. The lesson here is that if you dont want to put your life at risk dont commit felony assault on someone.

What are you basing this on other than Z's version and your own biases?

And yes, if Z would have listened to Law Enforcement this unfortunate occurrence may have never happened. He might be lucky to be alive himself.

Post: #173

(03-28-2012 11:35 AM)JayMillz Wrote:  Why has that simple fact not been addressed?

It has been addressed in parts in various posts. You've been too busy posting irrelevant pics to notice. But I appreciate this post of yours, as it is rational and not emotionally charged.

(03-28-2012 11:35 AM)JayMillz Wrote:  But if Zimmerman would have never kept following Trayvon in the first place, then he would have never put himself in this type of situation. He sees Trayvon walking through his neighborhood. To him, Trayvon looks suspicious so he calls the police. Cool. During his call, he doesn't know what race Trayvon is so I can't call this a racist act on Zimmerman's part. At this time, he seems like a concerned resident. Cool. As he gets a better look at Trayvon, he's able to see that he is AA and gives a description of what he is wearing. Ok, cool. Now the police tells him that he does not need to follow Trayvon............and that should've been the end of it.

Not the police. The 911 operator. He was not under obligation to obey that order.

(03-28-2012 11:35 AM)JayMillz Wrote:  He did is duty as a neighborhood watch person (which was self-appointed, never officially appointed to him by the neighborhood). He saw someone whom he deemed was suspiscious, he called the police, he gave a description. That's all he needed and should have done.

So my question is and will contine to be why Zimmerman felt the need to follow Trayvon? Was Trayvon exhibiting behavior that would cause him to think that he was there to break into one of the homes in the neighborhood? What was he doing? Why did Zimmerman follow him?

From Zimmerman's 911 call, we know that Trayvon ran. Since Zimmerman already thought this guy was up to no good, seeing him run likely confirmed that assumption. So I'm guessing that Zimmerman followed Trayvon so he could point him out to the police - this is why Zimmerman tells the operator to have the police call him on his cell phone when they get there, as opposed to just meeting him by the entrance - if he did the latter, he figured they wouldn't find Trayvon.

(03-28-2012 11:35 AM)JayMillz Wrote:  If Trayvon was up to no good, and was there to break into someone's home, then the police would've caught him.

Sure, if they see him walking around with a TV. But if Zimmerman abandons pursuit and goes back to the entrance of the community to meet the po po, and Trayvon breaks into a home, how are the police going to find him? It's quite likely they will drive around, not see him and go back.

(03-28-2012 11:35 AM)JayMillz Wrote:  If Trayvon was simply walking back to his father's house minding his business, then the police most likely would've stopped and questioned him because he looked "suspicious" (based on Zimmerman's call).

Assuming the police found him. Given that he ran, Zimmerman probably figured the police wouldn't find him to question him.

(03-28-2012 11:35 AM)JayMillz Wrote:  No one (other than Zimmerman) will ever know what could've happened because Zimmerman decided to follow him and "become" the police. By doing this he put himself in potential harm's way. Again, why do this?

He was obviously tired of all of the break-ins in his neighborhood so felt compelled to do something about it. I can understand that. If I saw someone whom I thought looked suspicious, better yet, exhibiting suspicious behavior (looking into different cars, walking around with a weapon), I would call the police too. Then I would sit back and LET the police handle it. Why would I follow this person? Especially not knowing what state of mind this person is in......or if this person has a gat, etc.

Well, he certainly could have done as you suggest. I'm guessing frustration about break-ins, and his calculation that Travyon would disappear by the time po po shows up factored into his decision to pursue.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, if I have a wife and kids, I'd want:
1. to have a neighborhood watch, and
2. for the neighborhood watch personnel to question people they don't recognize who they feel are acting suspiciously

Hell, I'd want that even without having a wife and kids, just so my toys don't get jacked.

Post: #174

(03-28-2012 11:35 AM)JayMillz Wrote:  George Oliver speaking up for Zimmerman. The media's sensationalizing/capitalizing on this story (which is nothing new). George Oliver being attacked on MSNBC (which can be biased since they tend to be Democratic), etc., etc. It's going too far.

Joe Oliver was exposed last night for being the shill I said he was.

He admitted to being nothing more than an acquaintance. You're not going to convince me that a 28 year-old white-identified bootleg latino, who has a white father and is married to a white woman, has a close friend who is not only Black but is also 25 years older than him -- ethnicity aside, how many friends do you have that are 25 years older than you?

They wanted to further the "He's not a racist" meme, and they used him to do it, and he is likely being paid for it. What other reason does an acquaintance have to be going on national television to vouch for the character of an alleged murderer?

He didn't even know of Zimmerman's violent past, but he has a "gut feeling" he's not capable of murder?

Post: #175

Guys, We have all types of security guard/ neighborhood watch dudes gone wild here nonstop. Here's on in my area from a few weeks ago.
http://palmharbor.patch.com/articles/sec...to-9294323

It's part of the terrain here. We have guns and use them.